Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

An open letter from Boards.ie to Minister Sean Sherlock

1679111233

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    volku wrote: »
    It's against the Truth and the Freedom,
    your e-mails may be read
    your laptop at the airport can be searched for any "illegal" files
    the medicines and car parts must be only original, with no substitutes
    it's a bad law and against Irish Constitution
    Sean Sherlock should be arrested, and jailed

    Can you please show me how the SI does any of the above. Not your friend in the pub told you or some guy on the Internet, show me where in the SI it allows the reading of your e-mail, or the searching of your laptop at the Airport.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    And last year the ECJ made a decision that should warm your heart. http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2011-11/cp110126en.pdf
    That document doesn't warm my heart. It terrifies me.

    Look at the first step in the proceedings: a rights holder takes an ISP to court, and the court orders that the ISP do something that is technically impossible. The ISP is forced to appeal to a higher court, which in turn seeks input from the ECJ.

    The upshot of the ECJ ruling is that the particular measure sought by the rights holder is incompatible with EU law - but it also reaffirms that the rights holder may seek an injunction against an ISP to prevent copyright violation.

    So yes: that particular (and very specific) remedy has been ruled unacceptable by the ECJ. That doesn't mean that another (equally technically infeasible) remedy won't be ordered, and require separate testing in a higher court.

    Do you have any idea what that case cost Scarlet in legal fees?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2010/H377.html

    Here is what the Judge proposes as a possible solutions, now does it make your blood boil reading what he had to say below?

    Does it read like a press release written by the media industry?


    Solution I: Detection

    34. The IP address of those engaging in the peer-to-peer uploading/downloading of copyright material can be discovered easily and accurately. DtecNet software is a process which was described in evidence by Thomas Sehested. In essence, by checking with Résaux IP Européens (“RIPE”), an organisation based in Paris, a list of IP addresses provided to internet service providers in Europe is obtained. Digital files of copyright material are then obtained from the owners. There may be several thousand of these obtained directly from the record companies. As the download is proceeding through the system it carries the IP address of those who are downloading material. DtecNet does what any user of a peer-to-peer network does in order to obtain a download. No extra information is obtained. The fact of the download together with IP address, the digital information identifying the copyright material and the time or the crucial data is obtained. DtecNet searches peer-to-peer networks for files being uploaded which are subject to copyright. On finding such a file, DtecNet requests the file. This is then transmitted to, and copied, by DtecNet’s computer. It is integral to this process that basic information about the uploader from whom the work is being transmitted is obtained. The examples produced in Court show that the user’s pseudonym and the IP address of the user appears together with the relevant time, date and identification of the copyright material. As part of this process, if the IP address was registered to an Irish internet service provider, DtecNet identified how many sound recordings were being made available by that user on peer-to-peer software. A list of the files was then captured in the form of a log containing the name, size and hash value of user’s shared files. Although a music file may be split up in several hundred pieces, each of them carries a sufficient identification through the file # for it to be fitted into an appropriate order of sense and sufficient to clearly identify that it is a portion of a work which is subject to copyright. In all of the examples of which the Court was provided evidence, there is nothing to suggest that if only a tiny portion of the work was being uploaded that that would be insufficient to identify it. Rather, what peer-to-peer involves is obtaining the entire music recording that is desired. The file # identifier ensures that it is put into a correct format and order. The process of DtecNet is automatic, in the sense that the handshake between the computers, in peer-to-peer terminology, is fully automated. The search for particular files, for example the 1,000 most popular songs relevant to the recording companies, at that time, is inputted for the purpose of search. I am satisfied that from the evidence that the process is highly accurate. The activity log further transcribes the activity whereby the evidence is secured in a reliable format. There was nothing in the evidence to suggest to me that this process was subject to any degree of substantial error. Furthermore, the evidence establishes that there is a substantial problem on the UPC network with copyright piracy. Various figures on a monthly or annual basis were produced in Court. These related to an estimate of 15,000 per month, on a test run by DtecNet on 350 random tracks from a list of 10,000 U.K., Irish and internationally popular tracks. An extrapolation was made that at their peak downloads were likely to reach around 47,000 per month. These, however, are individual incidents. A person may be downloading a number of tracks in a single sitting, as it were, at their computer. A person may go back and download on their computer a number of times in the day. They may leave their computer on all day, downloading continually. It is highly unlikely that a person who enjoys an experience, having done it once, will simply desist. The figures produced by Ms. Sheehy speak for themselves. If, therefore, one is responding on a month-by-month basis, while it is difficult to say how many individual infringers one may be dealing with, it is certainly a small fraction of 47,500. Returning again to the figures mentioned by Ms. Sheehy on previous tests, it is apparent that there are likely to be, at most, some few thousand of them. Of them, perhaps a hundred or so will be the leaders in culpability. These few people are the ones who need to be processed. It is also apparent that the recording companies are going to have to make a choice in the implementation of any injunctive relief which they are seeking, whereby the worst infringers, namely those who download most frequently or who have the most illegally copied material on offer, will be prioritised

    35. There are two potential methods of evading the DtecNet process. The first is by the use of proxy IP addresses. A sophisticated computer technician could hack into another person’s computer, and then request files using peer-to-peer technology. They would be downloaded to the second computer via peer-to-peer technology and, as I understand, then directly download it, bypassing peer-to-peer communications, and therefore DtecNet, back to the original computer user. A second way would involve using another computer as a proxy server. There are some free sites, as I understand the evidence, offering this service. There are, in addition, ways of paying for the hire of another computer so that this process can be engaged in. The figures that I have obtained from Mr. Sehested in evidence indicate to me that the current use of this technology to avoid the ultimate IP address that the user resides on is now around 0.3%. With any solution, there will be a technology battle, whereby this problem may increase, and may need to be addressed. As of the current time I do not regard it as significant.

    36. Secondly, peer-to-peer downloaders can use encryption. This is not a problem. An encrypted communication is only of use if the party sending it knows that the party receiving it can decode the message. This is how Mr. Sehested put the matter:-

    “P2P encryptions basically make it hard… it encrypts the actual traffic flowing in and out of the network, but as we are residing within the network, actually communicating with the users on equal terms, encryption will not affect our scanning. However, if you were do what is called a “de-pack inspection”, that basically means if you are looking at the packages that is flowing back and forth, then encryption would hide that traffic so you are not able to see that it is potentially P2P traffic. But as we are actually residing on… either end of the communication, the traffic being encrypted is not an issue for our monitoring… ecause we are essentially part of the network, so we could also communicate encrypted. So the idea of encryption is that if you have two endpoints, if anybody is standing in the middle of that, they won’t be able to intercept that traffic, it will be encrypted to them. But if you are either end of the spectrum, you will have a key to unencrypt it, and we are on that side of it.”
    37. Further, as I understand it, those internet thieves using peer-to-peer encryption, download standardised forms of encryption so that mass communication can take place. I do not regard this as a substantial reason why the use of DtecNet technology would not be appropriate. The analysis thus supports the conclusion that I have reached that the detection, notification and termination solution is viable and proportionate.


    Solution II: Global File Registry
    38. The solution of detection and diversion that was described in evidence by Jorg Michael Speck involves several steps: this is called Global File Registry. A programme which is capable of being integrated into the Cisco 8000 of the Firmwear upgrade requires, firstly, the identification of files which are not either out of copyright, by reason of a lapse of time, or in respect of which copyright has been waived. In this regard, the relevant programme has a database of around four million tracks which are subject to copyright. Secondly, an alternative offering of around one million tracks is made available for legal download through this system. Global File Registry can operate on a mirrored form of network, whereby there is no encumbrance of the speed or efficiency of the internet service provider’s offering to its customers. The database of music tracks which are likely to be infringed is taken from the owners. In microseconds, any peer-to-peer transmission involving the illicit sharing of copyright material is identified through the file hash. This indicates the contents and mandates the programme to take action. Once the file hash is cross-referenced to copyright material, the sought for file-link by the customer of the internet service provider is immediately terminated. Then, the second aspect of the system occurs. The customer seeking a particular track unlawfully is immediately diverted to a site, made available through Global File Registry, where that track may be accessed legally. The system uses deep packet inspection. Legal traffic is never interrupted. Privacy is not infringed as the system simply reads numbers which identify the illicit nature of the transmission. Integral to that, I infer from the other evidence presented to the Court, is that a relevant computer address can also be recovered, as it is part of the transmission. There are, therefore, no privacy issues involved as no aspect of the system described involves the identification of a customer. Therefore, the firewall which exists between the allocation of a bank of IP numbers through RIPE, which is publicly available, and the day-to-day, or hour-to-hour, ascription of that number by an internet service provider to a particular customer, is never breached. The recording companies can never, through Global File Registry, or any other system, discover who it is that is infringing their copyright materials. Only the internet service provider on being notified of an infringement through DtecNet can find that out.

    39. Global File Registry by-passes any response by way of detection, notification, education and termination in favour of immediate interruptions. The advantage of the system is that it offers a legitimate alternative which Mr. Speck described as offering “solid value”. This changes the passive transmission of internet service provider customer’s data into intervention. It can operate as a source of revenue to the internet service provider since arrangements are predicated to be made between the companies offering internet service and the recording companies. Thus, the attempt to illicitly download a music track by peer-to-peer file sharing is immediately interrupted and a diversion is effected to a site, shared by the internet service provider and the music industry, whereby a legal download may be made by payment through a credit card or by an addition to a customer’s bill from its internet service provider.

    40. A similar system is operated by police in Australia in relation to about 70,000 child pornography images. These are identified by reference to the file hash, but in that instance the transmission is simply interrupted. I would imagine that this system, which is fully tested and in operation, also involves the gathering of data as to the user for criminal detection purposes, but this was not developed in evidence. That police agenda does not form part of the operation for the disablement of copyright theft.

    41. While the system is now partnered with the Cisco Corporation as a joint venture, and while it presents as a viable future alternative, it is yet to be fully tested. It would not be right for the Court to order such a system by way of injunctive relief because its integration and testing will take time. A trial exists with an Australian internet service provider but this trial, the Court notes, is only in respect of 200 musical tracks. To ramp up the trial towards a significant number of tracks, which in an Irish context would certainly run into several thousand, involves moving into an area which is not sufficiently predictable. It is possible, as was established in cross-examination, for persistence to lead a determined customer to an illegal download. It is also possible that the file hash in a very popular music track, that was constantly blocked, could be changed. I am satisfied that this would be an elaborate process. There would be a likely response from the music industry whereby, that would be detected and added, under that new format, to the files to be searched for and detected in the course of illegal transmission.

    42. There are obvious advantages to the Global File Registry system. The routes around it are difficult and time consuming. It represents a viable future way of responding to internet copyright piracy. It has no privacy implications. Any aspect of encoding is not demonstrated in the evidence to be different to the obvious solution of uploading the encryption programmes that are widely shared in this mass market. However, this system requires further work in order to operate at the level required. Finally, on this issue, I am not satisfied that in order to markedly decrease the internet piracy of copyright material that it is necessary to upload the entire discography of modern civilisation. Instead, the evidence demonstrates that deterring, through interruption and diversion, the most widely shared musical tracks at a particular time is highly effective. These need only be in the hundreds or thousands of tracks level. In the future, with development, the evidence establishes that this solution to internet piracy is likely to be effective.

    Solution III: CopySense
    43. In the United States, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act 2000 and the relevant legislation governing higher education institutions require all universities to control illegal file sharing on their networks. Charles Benjamin, the senior network and systems administrator for the Department of Housing and Residents in the University of Florida, gave evidence as to how the system functions in the University. This is called CopySense.

    44. Every student who enters the University receives an email which informs them that they are to avoid the violation of copyright through peer-to-peer downloading. Despite this, many students in their first time regularly upload and download music which is subject to copyright. In response to this, the university has a graduated series of sanctions. The implementation of that graduated response is achieved by the use of the CopySense programme produced by Audible Magic. The University evaluated it as most appropriate or its needs because it had a database of six million signatures of copyright works, when it was first chosen, and now has increased that to some eight million tracks. Mr. Benjamin, in his witness statement described how it works:-

    “It operates like an anti-virus programme in a sense that there is a database of signatures, in the case of CopySense signatures of copyright media, frequently updated that is compared to data being transmitted on the network. It creates a violation notice which we use to place the student in a restricted [network], disrupting the P2P transmission and restricting internet access to the … campus. It does not monitor the contents of email, web travel, instant messaging, FDP, newsgroups, legal copyrights works being downloaded etc. It only monitors peer-to-peer protocol.”
    45. The system is not connected to the University of Florida network. Instead, the transmissions are mirrored under a parallel system and analysed. Once a violation is detected, the CopySense programme is mandated to interrupt the communication, immediately terminating it, and sending a warning notice to the students. The system does not cause any disruption of the network, because of the manner in which it is deployed. Instead, the network is made available for legitimate peer-to-peer activity.
    46. The level at which this succeeds is less than with a medium size internet service provider, such as UCP, which has 150,000 customers. The university has 49,000 students, with 200 buildings in the Housing Department and with 10,000 Ethernet connections for the students that live in the university. The formal graduated response was described by Mr. Benjamin in this way:-

    “We then operate a system of giving warning notices to students who attempt to share copyright material, essentially it is a graduated response. Accordingly when a student is first detected sharing or downloading copyright material with a peer-to-peer programme, they are sent an email warning them of the violation and are directed to a web page. The web page contains the unique case number, the violation level, and the type of peer-to-peer protocol that was detected and a description of the [University Housing Unit] acceptable usage policies… The students must click “I will comply” before the restriction is lifted. In the first occasion the student is restricted to on campus usage for 30 minutes. If there is a second violation the student is restricted to on campus usage for five days and if there is a third violation, the student is directed to appear before the Housing Judicial Office. It is remarkably effective. We do not get a lot of repeat offenders, less than 2% proceed to level 3. Statistics show that the three graduated response system educates the student not to use P2P software in conjunction with copyrighted material. We have seen consistent results in each semester since the installation.”
    47. On the issue of privacy, the inspection maintained by CopySense on the appliance which mirrors the university network access to the internet does not violate privacy. The university is not looking at content. Instead, similar considerations apply as in the DtecNet solution. There are some instances where the university does monitor the content of communications, but this is not one of them. There are therefore no implications in respect of privacy.
    48. The strong effectiveness of the CopySense solution within the University of Florida is dependent on the high levels of detection that the system displays, the discipline inherent within the university setting and the ultimate sanction of expulsion that may emerge for repeated violations. As I understand Mr. Benjamin, for a modern student to be denied internet access is to place them in a position where they would be left dependent on text books; many lectures are also offered or summarised online. In effect, this will leave the student without vital research resources and result in the termination of their relationship with the university. In consequence, the very good results can be explained by that, but only in part. While I accept that a student group is quite different from an outside internet service provider and its customers, it is also apparent that detection and warning have a salutary effect on those who seek to violate copyright. This solution does not undermine the effectiveness of the network. The first and second stages of the process are automated. Six dedicated staff and some part-timers manage the system. I am satisfied that this is not a severe burden as those employees also manage the telephone system and security monitoring for the housing network.

    49. The system can be by-passed by the student returning home and, in the absence of similar general controls through internet service providers in the United States, violating copyright in a private setting. Nonetheless it is clear that the system is enormously effective, it does not impact on the network efficiency, is balanced in its approach by way of a graduated response and has no impact on privacy. To deploy the CopySense solution on an internet service provider, with 150,000 customers, would require testing an appropriate expansion of the system. While detection may not be 100% effective, I accept Mr. Benjamin’s evidence that it captures the bulk of violations. Were there a willingness by UPC to engage with such a system, it could readily be made to work. It is clear why they do not wish to so engage.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The existing legislation is extremely circumscribed and very specific: it requires that the infringing party remove the copyrighted material. This is not problematic - YouTube does it, boards.ie does it, wiseguy's company does it.

    The proposed legislation contains no such provision. It doesn't specify the remedy that the plaintiff is allowed to seek; it merely allows for an injunction against an intermediary. What form that injunction will take - what remedy is sought - is left entirely to the plaintiff, and the fairness or otherwise of the remedy sought will have to be argued in court.

    Let me reiterate again that the service I offer is that of allowing my customers to communicate with the Internet. If a customer looks at pictures of kittens all day, or downloads movie torrents all day, it's all just bits flowing through my equipment. This legislation seeks to make me a party to any illegal activity the customer may be engaging in - but how am I a party to it any more than Cisco is? If the customer uses a Dell computer, are Dell a party to his copyright infringement? Whose consent? Mine? I'm not clear what you mean by this. Even that phrase sends a shiver down my spine. Considering that I am the likely target of the injunction, that means that someone, somewhere is weighing up the possibility of either suing me for damages, or seeking an injunction for an as-yet unspecified remedy, for an infringement to which I am not even (in any meaningful way) a party.

    Let's suppose one of my customers illegally downloads a movie from a server in the US. In what way am I any more a party to that infringement than Level 3 or Global Crossing, or whatever other network the material transits on its way between the endpoints?

    An injunction is simply an order from the court to stop someone doing something or to order someone to do something. So in this instant case you are an ISP, at the moment any copyright holder can request you takedown content, or stop access to content or stop a person using your service to download or upload conten. If you at the moment ignore that copyright owner, his only option is to sue you for damages, which the current law allows. The new SI gives him an added weapon, which he has of right in the rest of the EU, and it could be argued after the recent ECJ case he has the right anyway to apply. This weapon allows him to get a court order, making you do something, once you are aware of that court order if you ignore it you are in contempt of court.

    You are rightly scared about damages, but with or with out this amendment they can sue you for damages anyway. This just adds injunctions no more.

    This amendment does not seek to make you a party to any illegal action your users partake in, again that horse bolted in 2000, you can already be liable please this SI does not add that it's already there.

    The consent is yes you, if you ignore a request to remove content etc. then under the SI they can seek an injunction, remember this does not add they can sue you for damages that's already there, sorry to tell you this fight is 11 years to late.

    In relation to your customer downloading something, you are not party to that infringement, but under the current law the copyright holder can request you take steps to not allow it to happen again, as they are all ready doing, if you do nothing then if the copyright holder can show you are involved with the action it may be able to make you liable for damages, but this SI does not do that, that's already there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    @OscarBravo

    Cogent's employees were rounded up by FBI and questioned. Cogent had a 1,000,000 to 1,700,000 US$ a month contract with Megaupload "Conspiracy"
    Here is what Cogents stock looks like now, here is a company being almost destroyed because of one customer
    Untitled_234.png

    And its not just Cogent, Leaseweb in Netherlands lost 1000 servers (Seized) and their traffic dropped in half (losing them millions a month)

    What is there to prevent something like this on smaller scale occurring in Ireland?


    aside: I am not defending megaupload but assuming they are innocent until proven guilty, and disgusted that criminal proceedings with accusations of money laundering and racketeering were slapped on in order for people to be extradited


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 Breizh


    Hi,

    This is a much bigger picture than what we are led to believe.
    They are doing the very same thing in every single country across Europe, and in the US.

    Internet is the ONLY media we have left that allows for free speech, that let people make their own ideas about various subject and offer the possibility to double/triple check the source of information; they don't even bother to tell us where information is coming from nowadays, information is fact.
    This is THE reason they are pushing this law and it has NOTHING to do with digital copyrighted piracy.

    Everyone should be out on the street for that one.
    Digg the subject, ..... and ditch your TVs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That document doesn't warm my heart. It terrifies me.

    Look at the first step in the proceedings: a rights holder takes an ISP to court, and the court orders that the ISP do something that is technically impossible. The ISP is forced to appeal to a higher court, which in turn seeks input from the ECJ.

    The upshot of the ECJ ruling is that the particular measure sought by the rights holder is incompatible with EU law - but it also reaffirms that the rights holder may seek an injunction against an ISP to prevent copyright violation.

    So yes: that particular (and very specific) remedy has been ruled unacceptable by the ECJ. That doesn't mean that another (equally technically infeasible) remedy won't be ordered, and require separate testing in a higher court.

    Do you have any idea what that case cost Scarlet in legal fees?


    More than likely nothing as the other party would have had cost awarded against them in the ECJ. Not sure about the costs in the Belgium court. If it had been an Irish case they would have been entitled to cost above and below. Which is why there will be a line if lawyers, willing to take any case they feel is unfair as they will make a killing.

    Yes over the next couple of years the law will be settled. Yes it will cost money, and so far from what I have seen the costs have gone against the Copyright holders.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    wiseguy wrote: »
    @OscarBravo

    Cogent's employees were rounded up by FBI and questioned. Cogent had a 1,000,000 to 1,700,000 US$ a month contract with Megaupload "Conspiracy"
    Here is what Cogents stock looks like now, here is a company being almost destroyed because of one customer
    Untitled_234.png

    And its not just Cogent, Leaseweb in Netherlands lost 1000 servers (Seized) and their traffic dropped in half (losing them millions a month)

    What is there to prevent something like this on smaller scale occurring in Ireland?


    aside: I am not defending megaupload but assuming they are innocent until proven guilty, and disgusted that criminal proceedings with accusations of money laundering and racketeering were slapped on in order for people to be extradited

    Again I agree, but this SI will not stop or allow it, the law already exists. My own hope at the end of this is that megaupload and the other effect companies sue the US into the dark ages, and I will bet there are a number of lawyers over there who can't wait to get there hands on this travesty of justice.

    But again I ask how does this SI allow megaupload to happen here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 volku


    read more about Richard O'Dwyer
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_O'Dwyer

    UNBELIEVABLE

    his website worked exactly same as google or youtube
    no down or upload just the links

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2087574/Richard-ODwyer-extradition-A-naive-British-student-facing-10-years-chains.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    @ResearchWill

    It started a debate here, online, in media and with elected representatives on the subject of copyright and the internet and rights of people to internet access.

    Hopefully this "instrument" falls on its arse, the politicians learn a lesson, and a new Law is made guaranteeing freedoms of people and setting up a method for copyright owners to deal with infringements on-line.

    For example a US style DMCA law could be introduced, where a copyright owner can inform an "allegedly" infringing party to remove their content (which they need to identify of course), giving the "allegedly" infringing party lets say 1 week to comply, granting safe harbour provisions to ISPs and allowing parties to sue anyone for sending fake notices.

    Then copyright owners and internet companies can between themselves deal with the issues. not dragging courts and lawyers into this, and/or harming innocent people.


    Also it would be nice that it could be enshrined in our law that no private person or corporate entity can be disconnected from the internet.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    OK as no one else has given a good argument against the SI,

    Here is one, the SI is a stat,ent of EU law. All citizens in there dealing with EU law are covered by the Charter of Fundemental Rights, Article 47 says

    Everyone whose rights and freedoms guaranteed by the law of the Union are violated has the right to an effective remedy before a tribunal in compliance with the conditions laid down in this Article.
    Everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal previously established by law. Everyone shall have the possibility of being advised, defended and represented.
    Legal aid shall be made available to those who lack sufficient resources in so far as such aid is necessary to ensure effective access to justice.

    Where is the legal aid scheme for persons effected by injunctions. Now take that to Goverenment, the possibility of having to pay for every and any injunction taken might make them think again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    OK as no one else has given a good argument against the SI,

    Here is one, the SI is a stat,ent of EU law. All citizens in there dealing with EU law are covered by the Charter of Fundemental Rights, Article 47 says

    Everyone whose rights and freedoms guaranteed by the law of the Union are violated has the right to an effective remedy before a tribunal in compliance with the conditions laid down in this Article.
    Everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal previously established by law. Everyone shall have the possibility of being advised, defended and represented.
    Legal aid shall be made available to those who lack sufficient resources in so far as such aid is necessary to ensure effective access to justice.

    Where is the legal aid scheme for persons effected by injunctions. Now take that to Goverenment, the possibility of having to pay for every and any injunction taken might make them think again.


    Ok lets step back

    * EMI sues UPC wanting them to disconnect people + censor the internet for them

    * Judge rules that cant be done because Ireland didnt implement a EU directive or something

    * Minister wants to bring in a "instrument" to "rectify" this issue, covertly and in secret without discussion in Dail

    * instrument is signed in

    * EMI et al sue UPC again (or some other ISP again) in order to get people disconnected or to get their personal information or to make the ISP implement expensive filtering (that wont work anyways against real pirates)



    we have a judge who is recommending draconian and invasive use of technology that would make the Chinese authoritharians blush

    and a minister talking about three strikes
    As far as can be ascertained from the judgment (the State was not a party to the case), the type of injunction sought was to require UPC to prevent infringement of the record companies’ sound recording copyright, through its internet “peer-to-peer” services, possibly involving a “three strikes and you’re out” scenario. This is where the ISP sends three warnings of increasing severity and if the infringement continues, discontinues access to the Internet. It is sometimes referred to as a “graduated response”. I understand that blocking access to infringing online sites may also have been sought.



    BTW three strikes is already law in members states such as France

    :(


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    An injunction is simply an order from the court to stop someone doing something or to order someone to do something. So in this instant case you are an ISP, at the moment any copyright holder can request you takedown content, or stop access to content or stop a person using your service to download or upload conten.
    Let's examine those three options in detail, from a technical rather than a legal perspective.

    I can't take down content. I don't have any content. That's a problem for the boards.ies and YouTubes of the world, and it's a problem that's easily addressed: if you are asked to remove a file from your server, you remove it. It's not relevant to me.

    The second option is to stop access to content. How? Prevent all users from using Dropbox, thereby denying non-infringing users access to legitimate content? Nope, that goes against the ECJ judgement. Filter all traffic looking for infringing content? Nope, that goes against the ECJ judgement. In fact, the more you look into this, the more you realise that ISPs are simply not in a position to prevent copyright infringement, any more than hardware stores are in a position to prevent burglaries.

    The third option is deny a customer access to the Internet. That means losing that customer's business. Will I be compensated for the loss of earnings? Will I be indemnified against a lawsuit by the customer for breach of contract? These are not trivial concerns for me, and they are not concerns I want to have to pursue to the ECJ.
    If you at the moment ignore that copyright owner, his only option is to sue you for damages, which the current law allows. The new SI gives him an added weapon, which he has of right in the rest of the EU, and it could be argued after the recent ECJ case he has the right anyway to apply. This weapon allows him to get a court order, making you do something, once you are aware of that court order if you ignore it you are in contempt of court.
    But why can a copyright owner get an injunction against me in the first place? Why not Level 3? Why not Cisco or Dell? Why not Corning, who made the fibre-optic cables over which the infringing material was carried?
    You are rightly scared about damages, but with or with out this amendment they can sue you for damages anyway. This just adds injunctions no more.

    This amendment does not seek to make you a party to any illegal action your users partake in, again that horse bolted in 2000, you can already be liable please this SI does not add that it's already there.
    I disagree. As an intermediary, this SI is explicitly about giving copyright owners the power to take out an injunction against me for something that someone else has done.

    If on no other grounds, surely you'd agree that there's a principle of natural justice being violated here?
    The consent is yes you, if you ignore a request to remove content etc. then under the SI they can seek an injunction, remember this does not add they can sue you for damages that's already there, sorry to tell you this fight is 11 years to late.
    Again, I disagree. The existing law allows for the removal of infringing material - it doesn't apply to an ISP like me. The SI is being introduced to make me subject to the same penalties as someone hosting copyrighted materials, but with none of the same clarity on what is expected of me by way of compliance.
    In relation to your customer downloading something, you are not party to that infringement, but under the current law the copyright holder can request you take steps to not allow it to happen again, as they are all ready doing, if you do nothing then if the copyright holder can show you are involved with the action it may be able to make you liable for damages, but this SI does not do that, that's already there.
    The problem is that such steps are either beyond technical feasibility, or require that I terminate my contract with a paying customer.

    I've sent you a copy of the type of email we're already receiving. It includes this line: "We hereby request that you immediately remove or block access to the infringing material..." If that was an injunction instead of a request, I have no choice whatsoever but to go to court and try to make a case that there is no technological means available to me to block such access.

    Yes, the Court might ultimately side with me. But in the meantime, I'm fighting a battle in court instead of running my business, and I'm running the risk of losing that battle, and I'm in every possible way the ultimate loser in this fight. And I didn't even do anything wrong in the first place.

    Can't you see why I'm aggrieved about this?
    More than likely nothing as the other party would have had cost awarded against them in the ECJ. Not sure about the costs in the Belgium court. If it had been an Irish case they would have been entitled to cost above and below. Which is why there will be a line if lawyers, willing to take any case they feel is unfair as they will make a killing.

    Yes over the next couple of years the law will be settled. Yes it will cost money, and so far from what I have seen the costs have gone against the Copyright holders.
    I wish I had your confidence. This may look like a boundless opportunity to you, but it looks like a yawning abyss to me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    The section I quoted is the current law, it is what has existed for the last 12 years. So I ask you has any copyright holder got damages in Ireland against a ISP or forum or other site who has removed material within a reasonable time. I know of none, so if anyone can point at any, then its not this SI we should be fighting but the original Act, which I repeat again is currently on the books and has been since 2000.
    Now in relation to the Mega upload situation I totally agree with you it is something that makes my blood boil to be honest. But I can not see how this amendment will allow that situation to happen here. The current law may allow it, but this SI won't. That's my issue, attacking this SI is no more than trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted. The rest of the law has been in place for years.

    Well then maybe you're right - maybe the main issue *is* with the existing law.
    But since that's not up for change at the moment, right now this is the only game in town. And if it forces a long look at the existing situation, and improvements where they are needed, then great: but that's only going to happen if this amendment doesn't go ahead.


    Slightly rambling analogy:
    If someone suggested pedestrianising College Green tomorrow, there's not a lot wrong with the idea in itself, but the lack of reliable public transport alternatives, and the resulting knock-on effect on traffic on the few alternative routes there are, mean it would be a disaster.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Let's examine those three options in detail, from a technical rather than a legal perspective.

    I can't take down content. I don't have any content. That's a problem for the boards.ies and YouTubes of the world, and it's a problem that's easily addressed: if you are asked to remove a file from your server, you remove it. It's not relevant to me.

    The second option is to stop access to content. How? Prevent all users from using Dropbox, thereby denying non-infringing users access to legitimate content? Nope, that goes against the ECJ judgement. Filter all traffic looking for infringing content? Nope, that goes against the ECJ judgement. In fact, the more you look into this, the more you realise that ISPs are simply not in a position to prevent copyright infringement, any more than hardware stores are in a position to prevent burglaries.

    The third option is deny a customer access to the Internet. That means losing that customer's business. Will I be compensated for the loss of earnings? Will I be indemnified against a lawsuit by the customer for breach of contract? These are not trivial concerns for me, and they are not concerns I want to have to pursue to the ECJ. But why can a copyright owner get an injunction against me in the first place? Why not Level 3? Why not Cisco or Dell? Why not Corning, who made the fibre-optic cables over which the infringing material was carried? I disagree. As an intermediary, this SI is explicitly about giving copyright owners the power to take out an injunction against me for something that someone else has done.

    If on no other grounds, surely you'd agree that there's a principle of natural justice being violated here? Again, I disagree. The existing law allows for the removal of infringing material - it doesn't apply to an ISP like me. The SI is being introduced to make me subject to the same penalties as someone hosting copyrighted materials, but with none of the same clarity on what is expected of me by way of compliance. The problem is that such steps are either beyond technical feasibility, or require that I terminate my contract with a paying customer.

    I've sent you a copy of the type of email we're already receiving. It includes this line: "We hereby request that you immediately remove or block access to the infringing material..." If that was an injunction instead of a request, I have no choice whatsoever but to go to court and try to make a case that there is no technological means available to me to block such access.

    Yes, the Court might ultimately side with me. But in the meantime, I'm fighting a battle in court instead of running my business, and I'm running the risk of losing that battle, and I'm in every possible way the ultimate loser in this fight. And I didn't even do anything wrong in the first place.

    Can't you see why I'm aggrieved about this?

    I wish I had your confidence. This may look like a boundless opportunity to you, but it looks like a yawning abyss to me.

    As you will see from my last post you have hit the nail on the head, your only option maybe to comply with the injunction, and stop the customers access. He now has a right to an effective remedy, which does exist, but where is his legal aid. For that matter if you are a partnerships or sole trader where is your right to legal aid. If your customer then succeeds, the copyright holder has to pay because he has given an undertaking as to damages.

    But where in the SI is the right to legal aid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    Article in today's Irish Times.

    Alarmingly, our copyright and privacy infringer Mr Sherlock is apparently:
    one of the only TDs to have any grip at all on technology issues

    That doesn't bode well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    Has this Statutory Instrument been signed already? If not, what is the likely date?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    MOH wrote: »
    Well then maybe you're right - maybe the main issue *is* with the existing law.
    But since that's not up for change at the moment, right now this is the only game in town. And if it forces a long look at the existing situation, and improvements where they are needed, then great: but that's only going to happen if this amendment doesn't go ahead.


    Slightly rambling analogy:
    If someone suggested pedestrianising College Green tomorrow, there's not a lot wrong with the idea in itself, but the lack of reliable public transport alternatives, and the resulting knock-on effect on traffic on the few alternative routes there are, mean it would be a disaster.

    Yes I totally agree with you, if this SI is being used to attack the whole system that is a good thing. But then make that the issue, understand that issue fully, come up with good ideas for reform, work with copyright holders to put in place systems that work for everyone. But if you are going to argue against the SI make sure those arguments stack up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 Dublin Dilettante


    It's a depressing indicator of where we are as a society that the best argument Tom can muster against this insidious legislation is OMG THINK OF TEH MULTINATIONALS!!!


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Let's examine those three options in detail, from a technical rather than a legal perspective.

    I can't take down content. I don't have any content. That's a problem for the boards.ies and YouTubes of the world, and it's a problem that's easily addressed: if you are asked to remove a file from your server, you remove it. It's not relevant to me.

    The second option is to stop access to content. How? Prevent all users from using Dropbox, thereby denying non-infringing users access to legitimate content? Nope, that goes against the ECJ judgement. Filter all traffic looking for infringing content? Nope, that goes against the ECJ judgement. In fact, the more you look into this, the more you realise that ISPs are simply not in a position to prevent copyright infringement, any more than hardware stores are in a position to prevent burglaries.

    The third option is deny a customer access to the Internet. That means losing that customer's business. Will I be compensated for the loss of earnings? Will I be indemnified against a lawsuit by the customer for breach of contract? These are not trivial concerns for me, and they are not concerns I want to have to pursue to the ECJ. But why can a copyright owner get an injunction against me in the first place? Why not Level 3? Why not Cisco or Dell? Why not Corning, who made the fibre-optic cables over which the infringing material was carried? I disagree. As an intermediary, this SI is explicitly about giving copyright owners the power to take out an injunction against me for something that someone else has done.

    If on no other grounds, surely you'd agree that there's a principle of natural justice being violated here? Again, I disagree. The existing law allows for the removal of infringing material - it doesn't apply to an ISP like me. The SI is being introduced to make me subject to the same penalties as someone hosting copyrighted materials, but with none of the same clarity on what is expected of me by way of compliance. The problem is that such steps are either beyond technical feasibility, or require that I terminate my contract with a paying customer.

    I've sent you a copy of the type of email we're already receiving. It includes this line: "We hereby request that you immediately remove or block access to the infringing material..." If that was an injunction instead of a request, I have no choice whatsoever but to go to court and try to make a case that there is no technological means available to me to block such access.

    Yes, the Court might ultimately side with me. But in the meantime, I'm fighting a battle in court instead of running my business, and I'm running the risk of losing that battle, and I'm in every possible way the ultimate loser in this fight. And I didn't even do anything wrong in the first place.

    Can't you see why I'm aggrieved about this?

    I wish I had your confidence. This may look like a boundless opportunity to you, but it looks like a yawning abyss to me.

    BTW the first good arguments against the SI. The simple tacking on of section 5(a) in section 40 is confusing, as you point out section 40 does not really deal with you yet ss 5 (a) does.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    Yes I totally agree with you, if this SI is being used to attack the whole system that is a good thing. But then make that the issue, understand that issue fully, come up with good ideas for reform, work with copyright holders to put in place systems that work for everyone. But if you are going to argue against the SI make sure those arguments stack up.

    But to do that, you need people aboard who understand that this is the real issue. So, you ready to sign that petition now? :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    MOH wrote: »
    But to do that, you need people aboard who understand that this is the real issue. So, you ready to sign that petition now? :)

    I kept my promise, all I asked was a good clear argument against the SI and someone did just that. But it did take 24 hours.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    The more I research this, the more I realise that the entire European legal framework on which this is built has been bought and paid for by the copyright industry.

    From Directive 2000/31/EC:
    Article 12
    "Mere conduit"
    1. Where an information society service is provided that consists of the transmission in a communication network of information provided by a recipient of the service, or the provision of access to a communication network, Member States shall ensure that the service provider is not liable for the information transmitted, on condition that the provider:
    (a) does not initiate the transmission;
    (b) does not select the receiver of the transmission; and
    (c) does not select or modify the information contained in the transmission.
    2. The acts of transmission and of provision of access referred to in paragraph 1 include the automatic, intermediate and transient storage of the information transmitted in so far as this takes place for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission in the communication network, and provided that the information is not stored for any period longer than is reasonably necessary for the transmission.
    3. This Article shall not affect the possibility for a court or administrative authority, in accordance with Member States' legal systems, of requiring the service provider to terminate or prevent an infringement.
    What the hell is up with section 3? It's basically saying that a service provider isn't responsible for what third parties do on his network, unless a copyright owner says he is!

    Seriously?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    You say you don't trust lawyers that's fine, you say the matter is too important for judges to decide. So then who will decide.

    The Oireachtas should introduce the law. Is that such an unusual idea?
    My understanding is that the EU directives are allowed to be transposed into Irish law with government legislation which interprets their application and gives guidance to the judiciary.

    I see no reason why we should solely rely on guidance from the EU directives and the messy, unpredictable and threatening (to business, innovation and the international perception of the Irish economy) processes of judges interpreting those directives in new areas with no guidance from the government when this is a matter of such importantance to the state.
    Now in relation to making the law clearer, my only problem with that is that if the law on injunctions is drafted to consider every possibility, then it will only create problems. All that is required is an amendment to section 40 and section 205 to allow injunctions.

    How are laws ever drafted if this considering of every possibility is such a problem?

    There is still room for the government to give guidance and not rely on all of our protection coming from the EU directives.
    I am assuming you argued that a person who holds copyright can protect his or her property.

    Now let's look at how that property can be protected, well Ireland enacted the copyright and related rights Act 2000, that act came into force in 2001. So Ireland has a framework to protect copyright that is a legal frame work, which means lawyers. Now the EC produced a Directive in 2001 called 2001/29/EC, this gave copyright holders the right to seek injunctions against persons who interfere with or allow others to interfere with their property.

    Now it was believed that our Act of 2000 allowed copyright holders to seek injunctions. Because of that EMI sued UPC in 2009, and the Judgement was given on the 11th October 2001. The Judge said that section 40 did not give the right to injunctions. So guess what one of them dam pesky lawyers and a Judge protected the rights of UPC under the law at the time.

    The fact that one judge at one time acted in a way which happens to be in the best interests of the Irish economy and freedoms of expression for Irish people does not mean that all judges will at all times in future. This is an important matter and they should receive guidance from the Oireachtas in the form of Irish law. We should not leave this to their interpretations of the EU directives and the litigation process, which of its natural action will threaten innovation in the online economy even by the process of trying to establish balance with test cases.

    As the Advocate General in the Scarlet v SABAM case said, there is a need for legislation in the area to be ''democratically legitimised.''
    Now in relation to the law as it maybe. Who instead of judges do you propose gives the injunctions that copyright holders are entitled by EU law.

    I am not suggesting that anybody act instead of judges in giving injunctions. I am suggesting that the Oireachtas should form that law first with a view to balancing the interests of the Irish economy and citizens' freedoms of expression against copyright holders interests, with reference to the appropriate EU directives.
    The Irish law on injunctions is very clear, you have to seek that the person consents first, you have to show that the balance lies with granting the injunction and you have to prove damages are not an adequate remedy.

    And it is very clear that even the threat of these injunctions can be harmful to small businesses and innovation in the online economy. You have already offered pro bono legal representation to a small business ISP on here when he showed you how the injunction system could harm his company under this supposed restatement of the law. Are you going to offer that to all small businesses who will find this unnecessarily unpredictable legal operation threatening?

    Even if you would do that, we should not be solely reliant on your charity to protect our interests and our economy. The government should also be involved in doing that for us. They should certainly not be abrogating all responsibility to the EU and the judiciary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    I emailed everyone in government the other day. Here is Martin Ferris' reply to me.
    Latest is that your lobbying and political pressure on Sherlock has forced him to have a mini debate on this next Thursday. That is inadequate as it is merely window dressing and we will continue to press for the whole issue to be properly debated and voted on and that the Ministerial order not go ahead pending that and pending proper legislation, with full input from people interested in the issue; to protect intellectual freedom, access to information and sensible measures to protect copyright holders where there is blatant commercial exploitation rather than this hamfisted and potentially dangerous measure as it stands.


    Ferris calls for full debate and vote on internet legislation





    The Sinn Féin Spokesperson on Communications, Martin Ferris TD has called on the Government to have a full debate in the Dáil on measures governing access to the internet. He was responding to an interview with the Minister responsible Seán Sherlock yesterday which Deputy Ferris said leaves many questions to be answered regarding the implications of the legislation.


    Deputy Ferris said: “While the Minister is claiming that he needs to act in order to reflect both a recent Court judgement and two EU directives, he appears to be pretty vague regarding the implications of what he is proposing. Experts in the field are taking a diametrically opposed view to that of the Minister.

    “There is understandable fear among both commercial and private users of the internet that this will leave the door open to actions that would severely restrict access to information if copyright holders can secure orders preventing it being made available.

    “That would not only represent a significant attack on individual freedom but also a threat to a healthy sector of the Irish economy which has attracted major international players to locate here.

    “In the interests of teasing all of this out I am calling on the Government to facilitate a debate and to present legislation that will require approval by the Oireachtas prior to any enactment. That would allow a full debate with meaningful inputs from all interested parties.”





    ENDS


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    Here's Liam Aylward's response.
    Dear Mr [-0-],


    Thank you for your email outlining your opposition this S.I.in Ireland. I will bring the points and concerns you have raised to the attention of Mr Aylward.



    As you may be aware the European Commission has asked the European Council to authorise the signature for ACTA (Anti Counterfeiting Trade agreement), which covers similar issues and then the European Parliament will be officially asked for consent. As ACTA is a mixed agreement - partly competence of the Member States - ratifications by national parliaments, including Ireland, will be required as well.



    The European Parliament Committees that are responsible for this file - DEVE, INTA (Internal Market) and JURI (Legal Affairs) have already began preparatory work and have asked the Parliament legal service for opinion. We have been informed that the JURI Committee is currently checking the compatibility of ACTA with the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.



    The was concern among MEPs regarding the secrecy of the negotiations surrounding ACTA and there have been several Parliamentary questions on this issue, mostly calling for publication of the documents from negotiations.

    Mr Aylward is not a member of the committees responsible for ACTA but his ALDE (Alliance of Liberals and Democrats) colleagues in these Committees have been to the forefront in asking for increased transparency and called for the European Commission to present all discussion documents, relevant studies and impact assessments on ACTA.



    At present, clarification is still needed on the compatibility of ACTA with the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights before a final position is taken. The MEPs are awaiting this and the feedback of their colleagues working directly on this file. Mr Aylward has received several emails from constituents concerned about the impact of this agreement on their livelihoods and access to information and will take these views into consideration ahead of full Plenary vote.



    I trust this information will be of interest to you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    Tom Barry responded with his press release.
    DEPUTY Tom Barry has urged serious caution in relation to proposals to introduce a Statutory Instrument to allow the courts to block access to websites suspected of infringing copyright.
    “While I have not seen the specific text of this proposed order yet; I would like to put on record my considerable concerns at any threat to restrict personal freedom in relation to freedom of expression or access to information on the Internet. In addition, I also think the proposal raises serious concerns about protection for Internet users.
    “In the case that has led to this proposal, Mr. Justice Charleton said that existing legislation constrained the judiciary from granting injunctions to prevent infringement of copyright against Information Service Providers. However, I feel we should be reluctant to pre-empt criminal activity. We already have sufficient law to allow prosecution for copyright infringement if and when it does occur. I am fearful of the consequences of introducing preventative legislation that may impact on personal freedoms.
    “If we are to tackle the suggested flaws in the existing Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000 we must examine in detail the potential implications of handing control of the monitoring of Information Service Providers over to the judiciary. There are some extremely large corporations who would welcome this legislation or something like it; but there are even more organisations - upon whom we depend for a great deal of employment and potential future growth - who are vehemently opposed.
    “We must consider the stringent opposition to this kind of restrictive and legislative Internet control from companies like Google, Facebook, Yahoo, EBay, Linkedin, AOL and Twitter – amongst others – who represent so much promise for Irish employment and innovation into the future. The very nature of the Internet means that inadvertent copyright breaches are almost inevitable – but we already have legislation to deal with these breaches after they happen. Allowing for the blocking of any website where infringements occur seems like an extreme and counter-productive response.
    “Another serious consideration relates to the recent decision by the European Court of Justice ruling that Internet access is a human right. The position of the European Court of Justice is very clear – the matter can be taken to the courts after the holders of intellectual-property rights have had their rights infringed. But the Court categorically underlined the prohibition of the monitoring of information transmitted on ISP networks.
    “The key word in Mr. Justice Charleton’s judgement is ‘prevent’. I do not, at this stage, believe that it is possible to ‘prevent’ the offending activity without putting personal freedoms and human rights, as clarified now at EU level, in danger. I await the final wording of the proposed Statutory Instrument but the Internet Industry must be protected. I believe it is vital to our future and that the core principle of the Internet - the principle of freedom of access to information - must be protected.”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    Lastly Sean Kenny gave the following:
    Hi there,

    Thank you for your e-mail. There has been a lot of correspondence received on this issue, which I have been following very closely and which I will continue to do.
    I have asked a Parliamentary Question this week seeking detailed information from Minister Sherlock's department on the issue, which should be answered in the coming days.

    Minister Sherlock has issued a statement (see below my signature and contact information) about the issue to clarify what he is trying to do.
    The wording of the Statutory Instrument that was released yesterday also states that -

    "In considering an application for an injunction under this subsection, the court shall have due regard to the rights of any person likely to be affected by virtue of the grant of any such injunction and the court shall grant such directions (including, where appropriate, a direction requiring a person to be notified of the application) as the court considers appropriate in all the circumstances.".

    The full Statutory Instrument can be seen here - http://www.djei.ie/press/2012/20120126a.htm

    You can be certain that I will continue to observe the issues surrounding digital copyright carefully.

    Gilmore and Kenny are both out of office. In fact, you would be surprised at the amount of out of office replies I received when I emailed everyone, but it does NOT account for only having 5 people in the house yesterday.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Aside some comments

    Minister Sherlocks responses have been along the lines of

    * "Something has to be done" (in response to EMI vs UPC and that job offer from music industry he got for his next gig :P ahem)
    * "The net must innovate" :rolleyes:
    * "The EU made us do it" (after 10 years :confused: why now?)


    Some questions for minister, and for yee to ponder about:


    Why do we need a government if all they will do is rubber-stamp EU directives? This coalition so far has made an art out of blaming the previous administration and the EU for everything they do, enough is enough.

    Who runs this country the judges or the media companies or our elected representatives?

    Who was elected to make laws?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Pro. F wrote: »
    The fact that one judge at one time acted in a way which happens to be in the best interests of the Irish economy and freedoms of expression for Irish people does not mean that all judges will at all times in future.

    Have you actually read this case ? > http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2010/H377.html

    Charleton proposed solutions (Straight out of media industry playbook) which are scary in how invasive they are and piss all over privacy and data protection.

    Do read it.


  • Advertisement
  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    wiseguy wrote: »
    Have you actually read this case ? > http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2010/H377.html
    Interesting language in the injunction sought:
    An injunction, pursuant to s. 37 and s. 40(4) of the Copyright and Related Rights Act, 2000, restraining the defendant internet service provider from infringing the copyright in sound recordings owned by, or exclusively licensed to, the plaintiffs by making available to the public copies of those sound recording without the plaintiffs’ consent using its internet service facilities.
    They were accusing the ISP of infringing on their copyright. The scary part is that the judge seems to have accepted this accusation at face value.

    The copyright owners are blatantly looking for the low-hanging fruit here. They want ISPs to police copyright violations for them, in order not to have to pursue the copyright violators through the courts themselves. It's a flagrant abuse of the legal process.

    If the minister wants to introduce law to allow me to disclose the identity of the person who was using an IP address at a given time so that the copyright holder can take legal action against that user - we can talk about that. That's due process; that's fair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    wiseguy wrote: »
    Have you actually read this case ? > http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2010/H377.html

    Charleton proposed solutions (Straight out of media industry playbook) which are scary in how invasive they are and piss all over privacy and data protection.

    Do read it.

    Yes thanks for pointing that out. I've just now seen your previous post on it and it is very disturbing.

    ResearchWill's point that a Judge protected UPC's rights in this regard is completely spurious anyway as this is the very bit of the law that is proposed to be changed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭squonk


    It's down and it's down hard.

    Sigh, all I can think about when I see that sort of 'activism' is that somewhere a fellow tech is getting harassed by annoying text messages.

    Agreed! I had cause to have a look at FG's website yesterday evening in order to collect contact details for my local TD's. The site was down. I don't know if it was Anonymous action or a genuine service outage but the situation caused problems in allowing me to act in a democratic fashion regarding a legitimate issue I have, the Irish SOPA as it turned out. Ironic!

    These Anonymous people are acting like a pack of children. It's not cool or even useful. Frankly it doesn't take much for those with an agenda or who are just lazy to lump the legitimate concerns of the StopSOPA Ireland campaign in with the childish, unproductive antics of groups like Anonymous and that makes the SOPA group's job harder as it erodes credibility.

    Others with little or no interest in our particular campaign but with legitimate other business that is important to them are no doubt being impacted by the actions of Anonymous et al. I fail to see how antagonising others is of any benefit. I'm a techie myself and it's not good enough ruining the hard-earned social time of techs whose only function is to keep these government sites running. Infact they may not even be civil servants and may be outside contractors. I don't know really but throwing toys out of a pram and acting like jerks doesn't give me much faith in Anonymous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭SweetCaliber


    I love how Sean Sherlock, the fool that wants this in, was using copyrighted icons on his own website! Insanity!

    Then of course when word got out, he changed those icons!

    I really think a 5 year old would be able to run a government better then those who run it today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Pro. F wrote: »
    Yes thanks for pointing that out. I've just now seen your previous post on it and it is very disturbing.

    ResearchWill's point that a Judge protected UPC's rights in this regard is completely spurious anyway as this is the very bit of the law that is proposed to be changed.

    I still cant get over the judges argument that because UPC already use traffic shaping hardware to limit p2p traffic it shouldnt be much trouble to install expensive Cisco deep packet inspection gear.

    An I am amused as to how he dismisses that people might use encrypted proxies etc to circumvent with a "that problem can be dealt with down the road" type of sentence.

    Actually he himself states that real pirates use encryption, so why then force an ISP to inspect all data flowing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Now in relation to the Mega upload situation I totally agree with you it is something that makes my blood boil to be honest. But I can not see how this amendment will allow that situation to happen here. The current law may allow it, but this SI won't. That's my issue, attacking this SI is no more than trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted. The rest of the law has been in place for years.
    How is attacking the SI "trying to close to gate after the horse has bolted"? This proposed adjustment to it can still be opposed now.
    The new SI gives him an added weapon, which he has of right in the rest of the EU, and it could be argued after the recent ECJ case he has the right anyway to apply.
    That is just false. Most countries in the EU do not allow injunctions which are analogous to website blocking.
    You are rightly scared about damages, but with or with out this amendment they can sue you for damages anyway. This just adds injunctions no more.

    This amendment does not seek to make you a party to any illegal action your users partake in, again that horse bolted in 2000, you can already be liable please this SI does not add that it's already there.

    The consent is yes you, if you ignore a request to remove content etc. then under the SI they can seek an injunction, remember this does not add they can sue you for damages that's already there, sorry to tell you this fight is 11 years to late.
    If that is the case, I would like to see that pass a test in the courts. Not a chance that would be let stand, the uproar would be even bigger than the proposed law now, as there mere threat of suing for damages can be used for unaccountable censorship.

    It seems to me, even if the laws as they stand already encroach on net neutrality or 'mere conduit' principles for ISPs, there is no way to apply those laws that do not infringe on other rights, and they would almost certainly be rejected in cases against ISPs.

    So, this is a massive argument for opposing the laws Sherlock is trying to bring in; I don't give a toss what the European law originally stated, we can still oppose the implementation of that law, or implement an interpretation our country sees as fair.
    OK as no one else has given a good argument against the SI,
    You skipped over my post:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76751784&postcount=379

    It's not legalese, but contains plenty of valid points against the SI (the conditions that would be required to implement it fairly, which covers what you posted, and a bigger picture argument).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    The bottom line is that this law is not here to protect individuals.. its being forcibly enacted in the sole the interest of the entertainment industry, specifically the music industry and record labels.

    They are grasping at straws here attempting to gain control over a medium they obviously don't seem to understand. Is it right that the freedom we have on the internet as a whole should suffer simply because of the particular interests of a corporation?

    Any self respecting website already has measures in place to remove material which infringes on copyright, but this law isn't about that, it's about being able to punish indiscriminately to recover the supposed loss of 'intellectual property' and revenue.. with measures that are completely absurd.

    The entertainment industry is struggling. We are living in the digital revolution and most of them have done nothing but try to stifle this progress by pouring money into useless court cases instead of addressing real world problems and innovation by providing new technology which benefits consumers, rather than alienate them. Figures show that while the economic growth of music sales might have slowed down, they are still at record numbers, especially with regard to digital sales, but then you have to take other factors into account.. eg; not everyone purchases whole albums anymore, they might just buy one or two tracks instead of an EP or full album because they only like those tracks. Studies have actually shown pirates to be their best customers : http://torrentfreak.com/pirates-are-the-music-industrys-most-valuable-customers-100122/ / http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music

    They seem to think that every album or track downloaded illegally, is lost revenue, as if everyone who downloaded that material WOULD have payed for it in the real world otherwise.. that's complete and utter nonsense. Piracy and filesharing has had an immensely positive effect on the world of music as much as a supposed negative one. In many respects it has taken the power away from labels and given it back to the musician.

    Musicians are free to distribute their music without the consent of labels or contracts, free from the marketing expense and restrictions they impose. They can host their music on platforms such as bandcamp and receive nearly all of the money that a customer payed for it, not merely a fraction of it. Their music reaches a much wider audience and this exposure increases revenue from ticket sales and merchandise etc.

    Let's not forget the role of the computer itself in all of this, because most computers can practically function as a recording studio these days with the right equipment without the huge expense of a record contract.. especially with regards to electronic music.

    The recording industry itself has literally and continues to steal from the artists it supposedly represents and protects..

    see: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4596/135/

    That case was settled recently, but for a much smaller margin than what was actually owed, but you really don't have to dig too deep to discover their intentions are not exactly honest or legitimate, or the vast over estimations that they make regarding the loss of revenue. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus.ars

    Nor do you hear them talking about the positive economic benefits of piracy, or the stimulation and artistic expression creative common licenses allow.

    Regardless of how any of this legislation is worded.. its just completely immoral and wrong and should not be allowed to happen because of the precedent it would set in restricting the internet as a whole, in a way that simply is not feasibly possible.

    They need to wake up and reinvent their business model or get left behind and stop attacking people instead of crying over the 'virtual money' they lost.

    /2 cents


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If the minister wants to introduce law to allow me to disclose the identity of the person who was using an IP address at a given time so that the copyright holder can take legal action against that user - we can talk about that. That's due process; that's fair.
    Apologies for talking to myself, but I'm continuing to read through the UPC judgement.

    Charleton J. has done a neat end-run around that possibility:
    The judgment of Kelly J. and the judgment of Sexton J. uphold the basic principle established in the Norwich Pharmacal case that where a person, perhaps without fault, get entangled in the tortious acts of others in a way that facilitates their wrong-doing, while no personal liability may be incurred, a duty is establish to assist the person wronged by disclosure of relevant information and of the identity of the wrong-doer. Norwich Pharmacal orders are therefore clearly established as an alternative to this injunctive relief. The evidence establishes, however that this process is burdensome and, ultimately, futile as a potential solution to the problem of internet piracy.
    We can't have a process that's burdensome on the poor record companies, can we? No, indeed. Let's come up with a process that's burdensome on the ISPs instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    wiseguy wrote: »
    I still cant get over the judges argument that because UPC already use traffic shaping hardware to limit p2p traffic it shouldnt be much trouble to install expensive Cisco deep packet inspection gear.
    Hmph! I missed that bit. OT: So that is concrete evidence to the contrary of UPC's official claim on boards that they do not throttle P2P.
    wiseguy wrote: »
    An I am amused as to how he dismisses that people might use encrypted proxies etc to circumvent with a "that problem can be dealt with down the road" type of sentence.

    Actually he himself states that real pirates use encryption, so why then force an ISP to inspect all data flowing?

    Doesn't he say that encryption currently used by pirates in P2P won't be an issue because they will be monitoring the flow acting as normal users. The keys are freely available to read what is encrypted if you monitor from the end points. That's how I understood it anyway.

    The use of proxies that he kicks down the road, like you point out, seems to be the critical failing to me. (Aside from the obvious gross unfairness and impracticality in general of getting ISPs to police the internet.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 370 ✭✭DonalK1981


    Name: donalk1981
    Email:*********
    Subject: This idiotic new law
    Comments:
    You are fast tracking a law which has seen worldwide criticism, and will cost this country jobs. There is no call for this and it is not the business of the Irish Government to be helping private business to make more money. Although you seem to be making a habit of it, selling the people and country for the benefit of private companies. If the copyright holder wants to make an issue of it then they have civil law remedies to use, they hardly need help from you.
    Other information

    Date of Submission: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:37:44 +0100
    Domain: www.seansherlock.ie
    Your IP address: ***********


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I'm not quite sure how the minister feels this stands up against the ECJ ruling in C-70/10 - Scarlet Extended SA v Société belge des auteurs, compositeurs et éditeurs SCRL (SABAM) which fairly unambiguously states that national courts cannot force ISPs to use filter systems, installed at ISPs' own expense and used for an unlimited period, to monitor all its customers' electronic communications to prevent illegal file-sharing. It said that such an order would breach ISPs' rights to freely conduct business and individuals' rights to privacy, free speech and the protection of their personal data.
    [The laws] ... read together and construed in the light of the requirements stemming from the protection of the applicable fundamental rights, must be interpreted as precluding an injunction made against an internet service provider which requires it to install a system for filtering; all electronic communications passing via its services, in particular those involving the use of peer-to-peer software; which applies indiscriminately to all its customers; as a preventive measure; exclusively at its expense; and for an unlimited period, which is capable of identifying on that provider’s network the movement of electronic files containing a musical, cinematographic or audio-visual work in respect of which the applicant claims to hold intellectual-property rights, with a view to blocking the transfer of files the sharing of which infringes copyright,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Another part of the bigger picture here: These copyright laws, and new proposed antipiracy laws, show the need for new laws protecting and enforcing existing rights for ISPs and internet users.

    The argument that emerged after SOPA in the US, is that if people are forever on the defensive against overbearing copyright laws, then we will always be on the losing side, pushing back against these laws.
    We need new laws which bring our rights up to date with the popularization of the Internet, and which put many of the principles behind the founding and structure of the internet into law (this is actually reasonable, unlike most new copyright/antipiracy laws).


    To put forward some things, which must be explicitly declared in law, not assumed to extend from other rights (overbearing copyright laws show how weak that is):
    * All people should have an unrestricted right to access the Internet (it is just about essential for modern life, and not having access to it puts people at severe disadvantage in many ways)

    * No content on the internet must be filtered or blocked, the principles of net neutrality (i.e. treating all internet content equally) must be put into law and enforced upon ISPs (with exceptions for network performance type practicalities)

    * The 'mere conduit' principles for ISPs must be reinforced (i.e. get rid of that idiotic exception for injunctions, which oscarBravo pointed out)

    * Consumer rights must be reinforced and brought up to date with the Internet, fine companies for EULA's in breach of Irish law, people must have 100% complete control and ownership over hardware they buy, outlaw Digital Rights Management where it infringes on that control

    * As an extension of the above point, peoples privacy rights must be bolstered, and it must be illegal for internet services to share peoples private information without an explicit opt-in (which is not part of a EULA), and access to the services must be provided where such an opt-in is refused

    * Users must have 100% complete control over their private information online, and must explicitly be able to demand its complete deletion, including from any website backups

    * Data retention (storing of users internet activity) must be made illegal, to protect ISP customers privacy, and monitoring of users internet traffic must require a warrant (if it does not already specifically do this)

    * Extending from the above, it must be explicitly put into law that online services are allowed to offer complete 100% anonymity for users, and no law should be put in place requiring storing of identifying information for users (a massive issue for whistleblower websites in particular, e.g. www.whistleblowerconfidential.ie)

    * Where services storing private user information, are subpoenaed for private information on a user, they must explicitly notify the user of the subpoena and the user must have opportunity to contest this in court


    Plus rather a lot more I can't think of offhand.


    We should push for the Dáil to implement laws like that, taking precedent over existing laws (and amending later where needed). With laws like this, almost all overbearing copyright laws can be preempted altogether, when it comes to the internet.

    Is there a way to seriously get such laws written up and actually put into action? I would really like to see a new/separate discussion on this, particularly as there are people here who can have a political influence on this.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I've finished reading the UPC judgement.

    Probably the single most glaring indictment of the proposed statutory instrument is that, despite the fact that it is claimed to be addressing the shortcomings outlined by Charleton J. in that judgement, it completely fails to do so.

    Don't get me wrong: something like the UK's Digital Economy Act wouldn't make me too happy either, but if you're going to claim that you're introducing legislation because you're required to do so by a court judgement, shouldn't that legislation at least address the shortcomings identified in that judgement?



    Any which way, I'm on a loser. It seems to be an accepted principle in European law that ISPs are required to police the Internet on behalf of copyright owners. It's utterly depressing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,672 ✭✭✭Oblomov


    Too many individual members of parliament, Senates, etc are seeing the Internet as a legitimate target to gain a reputation and seek to enhance the chosen parties litigation skills.

    In answer tothe aggressive attitude by the Americans and the Music industry a politcal movement has been founded. The Pirate Party, the fastest growing party across the globe has arisen. Already with seats in the European Parliment and a presence hin German politics the choice to join and to found your own national unit is both feasible and available.

    http://www.pirateparty.org.uk/

    The aims and objective are legally sustainable. The aim of transparency, of accountability and run on open lines to make avaiable the abilityb for individuals to be heard.

    The "Sherlock" contrivance is nothing more than a political ego tripping but with after effects that could create on line devastation.
    The option to quote the simplest of quotes, or formula, of political manifesto would become fraught and possibly with draconian consequence.

    The free entreprise of groups wishing to use the net to publicise and promote music would become an invidous and risky operation.

    Instead of an online protest ensure that Mr Sherlock's seat is under threat and his dictatorial aims will not be tolerated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I've finished reading the UPC judgement.

    Probably the single most glaring indictment of the proposed statutory instrument is that, despite the fact that it is claimed to be addressing the shortcomings outlined by Charleton J. in that judgement, it completely fails to do so.

    Don't get me wrong: something like the UK's Digital Economy Act wouldn't make me too happy either, but if you're going to claim that you're introducing legislation because you're required to do so by a court judgement, shouldn't that legislation at least address the shortcomings identified in that judgement?



    Any which way, I'm on a loser. It seems to be an accepted principle in European law that ISPs are required to police the Internet on behalf of copyright owners. It's utterly depressing.
    I don't think EMI v UPC holds up in the wake of Scarlet Extended. I need to really look into this next week; but I am not sure how SOPA or even ACTA for that matter will stand up in light of the decision of the ECJ.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    I don't think EMI v UPC holds up in the wake of Scarlet Extended. I need to really look into this next week; but I am not sure how SOPA or even ACTA for that matter will stand up in light of the decision of the ECJ.

    While I have not read Scarlet other than a summary yet, I think your right, it seems to me, and this statement is made without reading Scarlet, that while Governments enact laws to give copyright holders more power, the courts are curtailing that power, at least in Europe anyway. From what I have seen in the ECJ ruling the right of copyright holders, can be a lower right to a persons right to information.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Citizen_Kane


    It seems to me that the analogy could read as follows:

    A publishing house (Acme) suffers financial loss because an Irish commercial press (Foo) is printing an independent newspaper which has repeatedly used some of it's copyrighted content in a column.

    Acme seeks an injuncture against the ESB to turn off the electricity to Foo, claiming Billions in lost revenue. The Irish court rules that Acme has been wronged, but no statutory mechanism exists whereby the ESB can be held accountable.

    Acme now threatens to sue the Irish government because the EU has a legal framework in place that says that electricity may not be used to infringe on copyright.

    Sean Sherlock has had a unending run of bad days in the office since that election thing. He just wants to move this EU harmonisation yolk off his desk and go home to the wifey and a nice hot toddy before he downloads the latest episode of Glee.

    Unquestioningly he, now under duress of a huge lawsuit against the state, insists that the law is nothing new - has always been there, and he is just doing his job.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I don't think EMI v UPC holds up in the wake of Scarlet Extended. I need to really look into this next week; but I am not sure how SOPA or even ACTA for that matter will stand up in light of the decision of the ECJ.
    The ECJ decision is quite narrow. It doesn't allow for broad-based, permanent filtering. It is silent on the subject of graduated response, or "three-strikes" injunctions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Pro. F wrote: »

    Doesn't he say that encryption currently used by pirates in P2P won't be an issue because they will be monitoring the flow acting as normal users. The keys are freely available to read what is encrypted if you monitor from the end points. That's how I understood it anyway.

    The use of proxies that he kicks down the road, like you point out, seems to be the critical failing to me. (Aside from the obvious gross unfairness and impracticality in general of getting ISPs to police the internet.)

    Which just shows how little he understands, that might be the case in a bit torrent type situation where the monitoring agent joins the swarm (and itself commits copyright infringement in order to obtain ips)
    But what about people downloading directly from an encrypted https or ftps server(s)? Take rapidshare.com for example who use SSL and who host almost exclusively pirated material it seems.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The ECJ decision is quite narrow. It doesn't allow for broad-based, permanent filtering. It is silent on the subject of graduated response, or "three-strikes" injunctions.

    And as we know three strikes is a reality for citizens of France. :(


Advertisement