Private busses clamp down on free passes?

foggy_lad · 12-08-2010 10:36am #1

last night on the jj kavanaghs 11.15pm waterford bus the driver was getting photo I'd from most people with travel passes! I think this should be a condition of travel on all services as I have all to often seen people getting on with their free ticket written out expecting to travel without even showing a travel pass!

Then two "lads" one with a travel pass, got on in naas and he was asked to pay but refused stating his dole receipt or some other bit of paper was identification enough and went down the back of the bus, the driver left him and pulled up at the garda station but apparently was told by the guards to take the two lads!

Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?

Cookie_Monster · 12-08-2010 10:48am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?

I thought all passes had photo's on them? Any OAP ones I've seen people show on DB do anyway, as do the blue ones (social welfare ones I thinking judging by the usual holders)

Run_to_da_hills · 12-08-2010 11:19am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I thought all passes had photo's on them? Any OAP ones I've seen people show on DB do anyway, as do the blue ones (social welfare ones I thinking judging by the usual holders)

No, when someone first gets a free travel pass from the HSE it contains no photo, only name and PPS number and instructions on where to get photo pass, it is up to the individual to go to the DB head office on O'Connel St and get a photo ID card.

foggy_lad · 12-08-2010 11:28am

you only need a CIE photopass if you live in certain areas

In addition, if you live in Dublin, Cork city, Waterford city, Limerick city or Galway city you must also produce a Free Travel Photo ID, which you can get from CIE offices for free. You should obtain this photopass within one month of receiving your Travel Pass.

You and your accompanying spouse or partner may also need to produce evidence of identity, by providing a sample of your signature(s) to the officials mentioned above.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/Pages/9DoIneedtoshowevidenceofmyidentity.aspx

here is more info on the scheme http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/FreeTravel/Pages/FreeTravel.aspx#Information1

i just thought that private operators at least should be allowed insist on seeing a driving license or passport as those photo passes can be got very easily, you have a travel pass and report it lost and apply for a new one so i then go to CIE with the new pass and the voucher for the photo id and all i need to do is bring a proof oy address from the original pass holder. nowhere in the scheme is actual photo id sought by any department or arm of the state leaving the whole scheme open to fraud and corruption!

and WTF is tha bolded part about? evidence of identity can be an example of your signiture???

seamus · 12-08-2010 11:31am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?

Private operators are under no obligation to allow free travel to pass holders, so they would be perfectly within their rights to insist that anyone presenting such a pass is required to produce photo identification.

foggy_lad · 12-08-2010 12:23pm

seamus wrote: »

Private operators are under no obligation to allow free travel to pass holders, so they would be perfectly within their rights to insist that anyone presenting such a pass is required to produce photo identification.

i thought they had to accept free travel passes as part of their licences for certain routes?

KC61 · 12-08-2010 1:05pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

i thought they had to accept free travel passes as part of their licences for certain routes?

No they're not. They can apply to join the free travel scheme, but are not obliged to do so, unless there is a public service obligation element to the service.

foggy_lad · 12-08-2010 1:40pm

I am trying to figure out why the driver allowed the lads to travel last night after speaking to guards in naas? Would the guards have told him to take them? I doubt there is any public service obligation to the Dublin-waterford route as it is covered already by bus eireann.

KC61 · 12-08-2010 2:48pm

Maybe JJ Kavanagh are a voluntary member of the scheme - as I said above there is no obligation to be a member.

tombliboo83 · 12-08-2010 2:50pm

The guards can ask and not tell. I had two lads removed from a train at 8in the morning for being drunk and causing a nuisance. Guard talked to them and asked me were they alright to continue onwards, my reply..no. So the bus driver probably felt intimidated having to deal with the guards and forgot he had the right to refuse access admittance

AlekSmart · 12-08-2010 6:50pm

Posted by KC61:

Maybe JJ Kavanagh are a voluntary member of the scheme - as I said above there is no obligation to be a member.

This may well be a "first-instance" of recognition that the DSP Free Travel Scheme is in DEEP distress.

This particular instance may well also have something to do with the particular company`s trading status and the increased requirement to collect actual revenue for services provided rather than the notional system in effect with the DSP.

Most,if not all,participants in the DSP Free Travel scheme will negotiate a rate based upon various arcane formulae or in very few cases actual journey statistics.

I would be prepared to speculate that the DSP has reduced or is refusing to renogotiate upwards on its current arrangements to fund the Public Transport needs of its "customers".

What very few realize is that Free Travel is a misnomer as,in reality,it is anything but Free.
In it`s original form it was an easily managed and administered scheme with only a single annual financial transaction required between the DSW (as it was) and CIE.

The actual divvying out of the Free Travel Scheme funds was then an internal CIE matter.
The initial breakup of CIE in 1987 and the requirement for 3 seperate sets of accounts brought with it a new awareness of the extent of the Scheme Benefits....and costs.

It was the late Michael McDonnell as Chairman of the CIE group who first spotted the worrying capability for the "nod and wink" Free Travel situation to develop into a very large black financial hole for the companies.

Iarnrod Eireann were thus the first of the CIE companies to introduce a requirement to accquire an actual travel ticket upon presentation of one`s Free Pass which then allowed the company to harvest (very) accurate data on its useage patterns.

Both of the Bus Companies however have lagged far behind,for a number of reasons,primarily the reluctance of the Dept of Social Welfare/Protection to agree to a new format digitized pass which would reduce the level of fraud/misuse simultaneously increasing the available travel pattern data.

It also needs to be borne in mind that whilst new Operators such as Luas and Aircoach came on line and others also began to voluntarily enter the Free Travel scheme the total amount of funding has not increased in comparison to the customer base.

Also of significance is the Northern Ireland Offices refusal to entertain this lump-sum approach to the extension of the scheme to a 32 county one.
The NIO/Translink insisted upon the Republic`s customers embracing the NI fully digitized Concessionary Senior Smartpass thus allowing them to seek prompt payment based upon instant and accurate user data,a feature still not available darn sarff

With the Total Free Travel Funding remaining static but the numbers availing of it,increasing,there can only be one outcome unless somebody gets-a-grip.

The actual figure disbursed in Free Travel Scheme payments can be very difficult to ascertain as the Department and the CIE group tend to muddy the waters somewhat with various alocations to PSO contracts etc.

The main problem now for ALL operators is the large increase in Pass Holders,many of whom now have far more time available to spend "Free" travelling.

The main problem for the Department and those actually funding the scheme (Taxpayers) is the amount of Free Travel Scheme beneficiaries who have accquired Passes on the back of another allowance whilst having little or no Social Welfare contribution history.

Any attempt to promote a debate on the Free Travel Scheme issue is usually blown out of the water by first mention of the Old Age Pension Pass,which although a significant proportion of the Free Travel Scheme is now but only one of a number of subsectors who can avail of its benefits.

Perhaps JJ Kavanaghs Driver may have been overzealous or perhaps from a different ethnic background which has far less tolerance of nodding & winking to our own,but I reckon we shall be seeing and hearing a lot more on this particular topic

Sponge Bob · 12-08-2010 7:00pm

as of June 1st I understand the department had paid for nothing incurred in 2010. A photo id medical card would do it, if you are entitled to free travel you are also entitled to a free medical card I believe.

foggy_lad · 12-08-2010 7:50pm

@ AlexSmart the increase in numbers of free travel passes can be mostly atributed to fraudulant passes imo and asking/insisting on seeing a proper photo id instead of the CIE photo id is all that is required to clamp down on fraudulant passes

dowlingm · 12-08-2010 7:54pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

he was asked to pay but refused stating his dole receipt or some other bit of paper was identification enough and went down the back of the bus, the driver left him and pulled up at the garda station but apparently was told by the guards to take the two lads!

Right to refuse admission is pointless if someone boards, refuses to leave and there is no avenue to enforce the trespass. Do the Transport Acts give more power to CIE to compel garda assistance than the legislation enabling private operators, perhaps?

anotherlostie · 12-08-2010 8:04pm

I'm often on one of the 'seventies' buses into town and every second person produces the free travel pass. I know you can never assume with regard to illness and outward appearance, but I think abuse of the system is rampant.

I was once on a Bus Eireann bus and the driver refused to let on a couple because he said the passes weren't legit. I suppose it's too much hassle for Dublin Bus drivers to do the same stop after stop.

mickydoomsux · 12-08-2010 8:45pm

anotherlostie wrote: »

I know you can never assume with regard to illness and outward appearance, but I think abuse of the system is rampant.

I work in public transport and more free travel-passers travel with us than paying customers and to a man anyone who causes us hassle (drink/drugs/stealing/violent behaviour) has a free pass. Abuse of the system is absolutely rampant and there is no requirement for them to have photo ID yet.

foggy_lad · 12-08-2010 9:00pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Right to refuse admission is pointless if someone boards, refuses to leave and there is no avenue to enforce the trespass. Do the Transport Acts give more power to CIE to compel garda assistance than the legislation enabling private operators, perhaps?

these two had followed the driver in to the garda station to argue their case in front of the guards and the driver, i suppose they didnt like the idea of only one side being heard? but surely the guards should have told the driver to take them or leave them at that stage or maybe they did not want two out of town scumbags on their turf for the night?

foggy_lad · 12-08-2010 9:08pm

just to add some balance to this thread i wanted to add that we all or most of us know people who have been injured badly in road crashes and were left with serious brain injuries after the scars have healed and who may seem like they are continously pissed or strung out on heroin all the time. because of their injuries they sometimes lose bladder control or will not behave appropriately in situations, many of the free passes are these people.

Oliver1985 · 12-08-2010 9:35pm

Do private operators have to take these?
In fairness it has to be one things that is full of fraud :eek:

AlekSmart · 12-08-2010 11:56pm

Posted by Foggy_Lad:-

just to add some balance to this thread i wanted to add that we all or most of us know people who have been injured badly in road crashes and were left with serious brain injuries after the scars have healed and who may seem like they are continously pissed or strung out on heroin all the time. because of their injuries they sometimes lose bladder control or will not behave appropriately in situations, many of the free passes are these people.

I`m afraid that in the context of c.600,000 Free Travel passes reportedly in circulation I cannot agree with the above.

I would suggest that those in the position described by Foggy_Lad are a miniscule proportion of the Total and very far from what could be described as "many".

Just to clarify my own position on the issue,I do not have any issue with a properly administered and funded Free Travel scheme on Public Transport.

If the Pass Holder qualifies for the concession then thats that.

Nobody would question the entitlement of persons as described above in Foggy_Lads post.

However,what has been apparent to most Front Line Public Transport Staff is now slowly dawning on the middle management too....The numbers are not stacking up.

600,000 passes with a theoretical entitlement to a spouse/partner/companion leaves us with a Public Transport system serving a Total Population of say 3 million adults of whom c.1,000,000 are not required to pay anything....that presents us with an imbalance of Titanic proportions.

I should add that the 600,000 figure came from a Dept of Social Welfare official testifying to an Oireacthas Joint Committee who was unable to be specific,which in itself is an appaling indication of ineptitude in any system.

From my own perspective I make a point of checking as many of the passes as I can but I also have to bear in mind the delay this causes to my bread and butter passengers who are entitled to as fast and comfortable a journey as possible.

It is my experience that if I call a pass holder and ask to see the document (Which theoretically should have been displayed to me anyway) I can expect quite some resistance to that request.

Invariably the "Pass Holder Only" qualification will be covered up or I`ll be shown the reverse side of the document as the "accompanying" person has already bounded up the stairs.

Once the Pass Holder or their companion has gone past,the battle is lost...The only rational approach is to attempt to get a look at the Pass before the holder gets past.
Invariably the document itself will be strategically defaced and ,if an Urban address,will not have a Photo ID.

The Urban Pass Holder often uses the Photo ID card on its own,pleading ignorance of the need to have both parts to travel.
In many cases that`s because the Cardboard section is in use by a friend or relative without the photo id.

The most frequent reaction I get,on a daily basis,is simple verbal abuse along the lines of "No other Drivers have a Problem" or "You`ll be kept alright" usually followed by other terms of endearment from the companion whom I then seek a fare from....If that sounds like too much hassle,then you`re dead right...it is....which is why most Busdrivers simply don`t bother any longer.

Few appear to accept the logic that any system which does not respect itself,soon loses the respect of everybody else and nowhere is that more apparent than with the Free Travel Scheme as it currently stands.

This topic is NOT about withdrawing the Free Travel Pass from those who deserve and respect its benefits,rather it is about the wisdom of the State funding the Public Transport requirements of a significant number of people who,oddly enough, can fund their own Jewelery,Mobile Communications,Alcoholic and Fashion requirements with little apparent difficulty.

It`s fairly obvious to many within this business that a major default may soon force the hands of several major operators and perhaps introduce a form of Concessionary Fare scheme rather than a Free one as at present.

Carawaystick · 13-08-2010 12:11am

is there not about 400k unemployed and retired and disabled to make up the rest of the 600k? in the country.

Maybe if the govt got out of the govt jet in Derry and implemented a few auld job creation policies there wouldn't be as many free pass holders.

mickydoomsux · 13-08-2010 12:29am

Carawaystick wrote: »

is there not about 400k unemployed and retired and disabled to make up the rest of the 600k? in the country.

Maybe if the govt got out of the govt jet in Derry and implemented a few auld job creation policies there wouldn't be as many free pass holders.

Being unemployed doesn't entitle you to a pass, ask anyone who's lost their job in the past 2 years or so. It's just a coincidence that a lot of long-term unemployed have passes, the same way these people get rent allowance and pretty much everything else paid for them because they opted out of the whole working idea because they can what with us rewarding laziness in this country.

foggy_lad · 13-08-2010 12:33am

UNemployed persons are not automatically entitled to free travel but if you are a carer for someone with a disability including your own child who is entitled to it then you will get a pass for yourself.

Carawaystick wrote: »

is there not about 400k unemployed and retired and disabled to make up the rest of the 600k? in the country.

Maybe if the govt got out of the govt jet in Derry and implemented a few auld job creation policies there wouldn't be as many free pass holders.

schemingbohemia · 13-08-2010 10:45am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Once the Pass Holder or their companion has gone past,the battle is lost...The only rational approach is to attempt to get a look at the Pass before the holder gets past.
Invariably the document itself will be strategically defaced and ,if an Urban address,will not have a Photo ID.

Sorry for only quoting part of your excellent post but How do the Revenue Protection people (Inspectors) deal with these cases? Do you get grief from them if they've made it upstairs? Do they throw them off/fine them?

OT but how often do you get an Inspector on your bus?

stop · 13-08-2010 12:09pm

I rarely see revenue protection on Crumlin Road routes, but see them frequently on N11 routes

mickydoomsux · 13-08-2010 12:18pm

Also, Revenue Protection can do very little really. They'll probably just be told to **** off by the offending passenger or given false contact details. After that all they can do is call the Gardai which staff can do anyway and the Gardai usually want nothing to do with the situation.

Stonewolf · 13-08-2010 1:15pm

If only we had transport police eh?

mikemac · 13-08-2010 1:32pm

anotherlostie wrote: »

I'm often on one of the 'seventies' buses into town and every second person produces the free travel pass. I know you can never assume with regard to illness and outward appearance, but I think abuse of the system is rampant.

78A for me.
Every second person has a pass.
Not it's bright and shiny in a wallet like my annual pass that costs several hundred euro.
It's a battered piece of cardboard.

Some people are so lazy they won't produce it, they shout "PASS" at the driver and walk on.
The driver is on his own, it's not an easy situation.

A lot of pass holders aren't elderly, they are young and able bodied.
I'm no doctor, if they have a disability then fine, of course you get their entitlements.
But I often see a person boarding and I can often predict if they use a pass or will be paying.

It's then these feckers on the 78A who cause trouble.

Do Dublin Bus want customers paying several hundred euro a year for the service?
As me and many like me with go cycling or drive a car/motorbike and never pay again.
And Dublin Bus will lose more money, cut back routes which will drive more customers away and the vicious cycle continues.

GerardKeating · 13-08-2010 1:34pm

seamus wrote: »

Private operators are under no obligation to allow free travel to pass holders, so they would be perfectly within their rights to insist that anyone presenting such a pass is required to produce photo identification.

They do have to if the join the scheme and accept payments for it.

dowlingm · 13-08-2010 2:53pm

I would implement discounted travel for all military personnel and gardai - as long as they travel in uniform. They wouldn't be there to act as enforcers, but maybe the sight of them might give the scumbags pause that if they did something there would be someone on board who wouldn't fear testifying at their trial.

foggy_lad · 13-08-2010 4:42pm

Those cases rarely get to court as the dpp would see no benefit in pursuing something so trivial

call the police · 13-08-2010 6:06pm

this was on rte 8 days ago: "A new card is to be introduced for users of the Free Travel Scheme. The card, which is expected to contain a photograph, signature and a chip with other information about the user is expected to be extended to other public services in the future", "the current system has much potential for abuse and that the new card should eliminate misuse".

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0805/travel.html

dowlingm · 13-08-2010 6:55pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Those cases rarely get to court as the dpp would see no benefit in pursuing something so trivial

But part of the reason for that is the likelihood of witnesses developing sudden amnesia. If the strike rate started ticking up, the emphasis switches to the courts to properly punish.

Some people regard such crime as minor, but I regard intimidating behaviour as wholly corrosive to a transportation system as it makes people think "I'd feel safer in my cars with the windows wound up and the doors locked, whereas that hopped up skanger could make a go at me if I look at him the wrong way". Unfortunately the social welfare industry hand wringers would be on Six-One the next night complaining about oppression of the poor blah blah, an insult to the truly poverty stricken doing their best to play by the rules and raise their families with respect for others and their property.

call the police wrote: »

this was on rte 8 days ago: "A new card is to be introduced for users of the Free Travel Scheme. The card, which is expected to contain a photograph, signature and a chip with other information about the user is expected to be extended to other public services in the future", "the current system has much potential for abuse and that the new card should eliminate misuse"

Isn't that similar to what they have in NI these days?

call the police · 13-08-2010 8:17pm

no, thats solely a public transport concession card for people under 60 on social welfare in the north.

to quote rte the public services card is not just for free travel as it will have "a chip with other information about the user and is expected to be extended to other public services in the future", "It is designed to be more user friendly and to prevent fraud".

mickydoomsux · 13-08-2010 8:47pm

call the police wrote: »

no, thats solely a public transport concession card for people under 60 on social welfare in the north.

to quote rte the public services card is not just for free travel as it will have "a chip with other information about the user and is expected to be extended to other public services in the future", "It is designed to be more user friendly and to prevent fraud".

More like 'It is designed to work in TVMs so we can have less booking office staff'.

AlekSmart · 13-08-2010 9:23pm

Posted by Schemeingbohemia.:-

OT but how often do you get an Inspector on your bus?

It`s not Totally OT as I believe the entire issue of Visible Revenue Protection is intrinsic to the broader one of regard for the service provided.

Revenue Protection checks are quite difficult to forecast but I would suggest that College Term times play a major part in the issue.

Posted by Call the police :-

this was on rte 8 days ago: "A new card is to be introduced for users of the Free Travel Scheme. The card, which is expected to contain a photograph, signature and a chip with other information about the user is expected to be extended to other public services in the future", "the current system has much potential for abuse and that the new card should eliminate misuse".

All good news,but I`m very conscious of that word,"expected".

In that particular way we Irish have about dealing with stuff like this,the relevant Departments have stood by and wrung their collective hands for decades now with nothing except excuses and reasons for not addressing the problem to be heard.

The actual kick in the arse for the Republics administrators came as a direct result of the negotiations for the 32 County Free Travel extension proposal.

it may be recalled that when the late Seamus Brennan went live on this proposal he was speaking of a simple extension of the Republics Free Transport Scheme into Northern Ireland.

However both the Northern Ireland Office and Translink (The Operator) were somewhat more concerned with knowing their actual level of exposure to Free stuff and as a result were loath to accept the long standing notional system in use down south.

As a result only the Republics citizens over 66 may avail of the Northern Concession and then only after applying for a Translink Senior Smartpass,a totally seperate entity to the document which is issued in the Republic.

The Translink smartcard however is non compatible with the Republic`s Ticketing Equipment and as a result a Northern Irish Smartpass holder is expected to use their Smartcard as a "Flash Pass".

Most of them are however,well trained and continue to place their Smartcard on the ticket machine where it sits silent and useless.....This is the stuff of "Integrated Ticketing" if anybody was/is interested.

Another recent anomaly is the introduction of a 60 plus Smartpass by Translink which allows Free-=Travel to those between 60-64 in Northern Ireland Only.

http://www.translink.co.uk/Special-Offers/60-Plus-Smartpass1/

Recently I have noticed a significant number of those passes being flashed by their holders who then become somewhat irate when told its NOT valid on our services...again since the card is very similar to the Senior Smartpass,most drivers do not have the inclination or the time to inspect the card too closely.

For a good overview of just how far the Northern Ireland Authorities are ahead of us it`s worth reading through their guide....

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/senior_citizen_smartpass_userguide-2.pdf

Its also worth noting that the operative date is April 2003.....Its difficult to know exactly what our Senior Administrators were doing with their time and money here,but it remains self-evident that we have spent vast sums of money and appear to have little except a bag of Magic-Beans to show for it.

Take a leaf through their Terms and Conditions for yet another example of the regard they hold their own system in.....

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/travel-and-transport/public-transport/bus-and-coach-travel/free-bus-travel-and-concessions/60-senior-smartpass.htm

It`s far far removed from what masquerades as monitoring or controlling the Republics Free Travel scheme but in reality not surprising either.....It`s just the way we are...

call the police · 14-08-2010 9:36am

Well researched post, but in all due respect looking north with envy for what ever reason is very much outdated.
I agree the majority of our state systems are playing catch up with the rest of Europe.
A service provider for the Public Service Card was appointed last January, (http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-06-29.836.0).

AlekSmart · 14-08-2010 5:55pm

Posted by Call The Police :-

But in all due respect looking north with envy for what ever reason is very much outdated.
I agree the majority of our state systems are playing catch up with the rest of Europe.

CTP,I`m not looking North with anything approaching envy,its more akin to complete and total disenchantment and resignation.

Whether its "outdated" to look at the Northern operation is immaterial,the fact remains that the Northern Public Transport Operation preferred to make far more efficient use of their older resources whilst allocating their spending into the areas which mattered in terms of forward planning and efficiency...ie: Ulsterbus keeping older but perfectly servicable vehicles in revenue operation to the benefit of the service levels,whilst we spent progressively more on total fleet replacement while persevering with outdated and creaking operational frameworks.

Right now our "State Systems" have caught up about as much as they are going to,largely due to successive Irish administrations having little or no appreciation of what full EU membership could have done for us.

Instead,for example in Public Transport terms we fixated upon buying loads of shiny new stuff of all disciplines,then simply putting the new toys to work on the old systems which,as with the Revenue Systems under discussion,are in a state of collapse.

All over Mainland Europe we have Publicly Owned Transport Systems operating to a high degree of efficiency for decades now complete with subcontracting,tendering and full modal integtation.

Instead our cuter and more astute Political masters saw far more to be gained from the oul "privatization" wheeze which was so successful in the UK.
As a result we had to languish in the bog whilst endless arguements ensued between the States remaining Transport entities and the brave-new-world of the Privates...all arguements which the mainland Europeans addressed and sorted out 40 years ago....:mad:

We`re still not any further along the road,with the Integrated Ticketing Project still awaiting the issue of it`s first useable product,even after €36 Million has been spent....mostly on "consultancy" fees it seems.

Oddly enough the recent events in UK Public Transport go to show just how well-planned and desirable Lady Thatchers public transport policies really were.

We now see European State-Owned entities such as Germany`s Deutche Bahn,France`s RATP and the Dutch State Rail operator NS now accounting for c. 40% of Londons Bus Operations following very significant expansion into the UK`s unique,highly regulated London Bus market.

To my mind, perhaps the only hope we can hold out for any real Public Service approach to improved Public Bus Services,is for Aviva,London United or Abellio to cast a European tinted glance over our native shipwreck of a Public Transport System.

Whilst I fervently hope we will see progress on this Public Service Card project I am also aware that the all encompassing nature of the Card and its support systems will certainly lead to legal challenges and other actions designed to frustrate it`s stated aims.

All I`m looking for,in Public Transport Terms,is something like our Northern Brethern hav had for many years now....systems which just work,complete with efficient modern back-office revenue streaming and administration...the sort of thing which we in the Republic still refer to as a "Major Challenge" in our Press Releases !

Envious glances aside,perhaps it`s time to start asking the questions as to what became of all the money...where did it go ????

call the police · 15-08-2010 9:11am

i haven't got the hang of the multi quote button but in response to your points:

Margaret Thatchers policies were not primarily in the bus users interests, the trade union movement was particularly strong at that time and also associated with the labour party, the threat of secondary picketing and actual secondary picketing were a continuous issue, between bomb scares and lightening strikes, the conservatives took a stand, among other actions they abolished the GLC, (Greater London Council) which was later reinstated to the Mayor of London office by the labour party, i wouldn't look enviously at her policies either.

TFL run of all London overground and underground operations not the multinational operators, who tender for the contracts to operate the bus services,
even in the current climate staff turnover in the multinational companies is high, for the obvious reasons ie working on minimum wage with shifts just within the working time act, have you noticed all of the various multinational companies that are London buses with large recruitment signs all over their buses, all with a free phone number offering immediate employment.
driving a bus in London is now akin to asking customers, "do you want fries with that".

How much subsidy is pumped into the Northern public transport company so as to achieve what you refer to ?

it's the same when we clogged up the M1 to get to the Buttercrane centre last year, we don't look at the bigger picture. The UK government is compelled to throw money into the North, remember xmas 09 when a large Supermarket closed down in Dundalk while we shopped in Newry

AlekSmart · 15-08-2010 10:11am

Posted by Call The Police :-

Margaret Thatchers policies were not primarily in the bus users interests, the trade union movement was particularly strong at that time and also associated with the labour party....etc etc......

All agreed,and in the context of this topic,not an issue,I`m merely pointing out that 90 miles away a smaller Public Transport entity has,for some years now,operated a fully functional concessionary Public Transport scheme with all the bells and whistles now being touted as the stuff of marvel by our native governors.

I suppose my essential point is that our Upper Levels of Public Transport governance remain heavily burdened with proffessional Civil Service types who "Fell into it" as their careers blossomed.

In the UK and elsewhere both public and private elements tend to have an equally high number of folks who entered and remained in Public Transport as a career option because they had an actual interest in its fundamentals.

This little tale is worth a read....

http://leondaniels.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html

Reading the "Stars of Route 9" entry regarding the retirement of Monoleto Hutchinson what struck me was the ability of the Director of Surface Transport for London,Mr Peter Hendy to actually drive a bus and of his retiring Garage Manager to Conduct the same vehicle...!

I fully concur that such activites may not be any longer a requirement of a modern administrator but they do indicate a certain affinity with and knowledge of "The Sharp End" of the business which has,again in my own opinion,been disregarded in our Brave New (Public Transport) World .

Now back On Topic.....do we have an exact figure as yet for Free Travel Scheme "Beneficiaries" ?....I believe this is the most essential element of rescuing something from the entire mess !

foggy_lad · 15-08-2010 10:29am

The figure could be got if the free pass was like a medical card and needed renewal every year, not full renewal a t simply returning a signed declaration that your circumstances have not changed into your local social welfare office. THis would stop passes of deceased persons being used and would render counterfeit or forged documents useless especially if different colours were used each year!

call the police · 15-08-2010 10:44am

AlekSmart wrote: »

:-
Now back On Topic.....do we have an exact figure as yet for Free Travel Scheme "Beneficiaries" ?....I believe this is the most essential element of rescuing something from the entire mess !

from RTE, "More than 600,000 people are entitled to travel on public and some private transport free of charge". http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0805/travel.html

foggy_lad · 15-08-2010 2:55pm

call the police wrote: »

from RTE, "More than 600,000 people are entitled to travel on public and some private transport free of charge". http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0805/travel.html

the 600000 figure was only an estimate given to an oireachteas committee by a social welfare official who was unable to give a specific or accurate answer when asked how many free travel passes were in circulation

call the police · 15-08-2010 5:12pm

there must be dozens more passes in circulation than there are people entitled to them,
i remember watching an ex-con on prime time say he learned to forge free passes and driving licences in prison and he was making a healthy living selling them

foggy_lad · 15-08-2010 5:43pm

call the police wrote: »

there must be dozens more passes in circulation than there are people entitled to them,
i remember watching an ex-con on prime time say he learned to forge free passes and driving licences in prison and he was making a healthy living selling them

the people with them can report them lost and get a new one then give you or me their pps number or social welfare card and gas or esb bill as proof of address and we go in to dublin bus and get the photo id part of it. the current way they operate it is just inviting fraud!

it needs a renewable element where the user gets sent a notice and must present with proper photo id to their local social welfare office to get a new pass, also use of it should be dependant on the user carrying a passport or driving licence or other photo id.

AlekSmart · 15-08-2010 11:46pm

Call the Police posted: -

Even in the current climate staff turnover in the multinational companies is high, for the obvious reasons ie working on minimum wage with shifts just within the working time act, have you noticed all of the various multinational companies that are London buses with large recruitment signs all over their buses, all with a free phone number offering immediate employment.
Driving a bus in London is now akin to asking customers, "Do you want fries with that".

How much subsidy is pumped into the Northern public transport company so as to achieve what you refer to ?

At the risk of staying on the wrong side of the OT line,I feel I must raise a hurrah for my colleagues in London.

Firstly London is a unique case study in UK terms as it remains the only part of the country which was not Thatcherized...or should that be Ridleyfied.

As a result it`s public transport remains a well defined succesful operation,albeit at a significant cost.

However I could not agree with the somewhat derogatory " Do you want fries" comment.
Whilst Bus Driving is not everybodys cup of tea,there are many who work away and earn a living from it without ever feeling that they are some form of lesser individual for so doing.

Quite possibly the single greatest causitive factor for high staff turn-over rates is the Shift Patterns which Busdrivers work.
There is also the often overlooked problems with Public Order in some UK urban areas which tend to manifest themselves on the Bus service with all to familiar results.
This factor is industry wide and as CTP points out does account for high staff turn-over rates in some locations.

Quantifying London Busdriving wages is difficult given the different operators and their individual HR policies but to take East London Buses as an example the figures are quite complex but in no sense are they minimum-wage rates....

http://www.planetrecruit.com/show_job.cgi?j=6466134&wt.mc_id=aggregator_trovit

Their figures show a Starting rate while training of €464 PW.
Rising in some locations to €685 PW after 6 years service.

Call the Police also posted :-

How much subsidy is pumped into the Northern public transport company so as to achieve what you refer to ?

I would consider the total subsidy level to Translink to be irrelevant to the topic at hand,namely the manner in which Irish State and it`s Public Transport Providers manage their Free Transport Scheme.

Translink and Ulsterbus/Citybus before it have run a well organized and rhighly regarded Public Transport service for decades now,often under circumstances which were,to say the least,"challenging"...But...That is not the issue to hand,which is all about "Ourselves"

call the police · 16-08-2010 8:31am

AlekSmart wrote: »

However I could not agree with the somewhat derogatory " Do you want fries" comment.
Whilst Bus Driving is not everybodys cup of tea,there are many who work away and earn a living from it without ever feeling that they are some form of lesser individual for so doing.

Quite possibly the single greatest causitive factor for high staff turn-over rates is the Shift Patterns which Busdrivers work.
There is also the often overlooked problems with Public Order in some UK urban areas which tend to manifest themselves on the Bus service with all to familiar results.
This factor is industry wide and as CTP points out does account for high staff turn-over rates in some locations.

also from one of your earlier posts, "To my mind, perhaps the only hope we can hold out for any real Public Service approach to improved Public Bus Services,is for Aviva,London United or Abellio to cast a European tinted glance over our native shipwreck of a Public Transport System."

i didn't mean to be derogatory by any means, i hold public transport bus drivers in high regard.
my point was that the bus drivers job in London is now something akin to working in the fast food industry, i.e comparable t&c's, shifts, rates of pay, accumulative pay scale etc etc.
not that's there is anything wrong in working in fast food, but they are two different jobs which once attracted different types of applicants, but not any more, in London both jobs are now seen as a short term move.
before privatisation London Buses was once a place of employment with a career path.

Theres nothing wrong with working for a multinational either but a turkey voting for xmas springs to mind !!!!, would they maintain your t&c's if they took over your job ?

anyway back on topic, where can i get a free pass ?

markpb · 16-08-2010 9:20am

call the police wrote: »

before privatisation London Buses was once a place of employment with a career path.

You do realise that a bus companies two aims are a) to serve their passengers transport needs and b) make a profit for their shareholders?

foggy_lad · 16-08-2010 12:07pm

call the police wrote: »

anyway back on topic, where can i get a free pass ?

you could try your local scumbags, they will get you one with a photopass card for around €100

mickydoomsux · 16-08-2010 12:13pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

you could try your local scumbags, they will get you one with a photopass card for around €100

Or become a drug addict. They get passes because their addiction is considered a disability.

foggy_lad · 16-08-2010 1:04pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Or become a drug addict. They get passes because their addiction is considered a disability.

edit, drug addiction is not considered a proscribed illness or a disability but the secondary conditions like depression, psychosis paranoia schizophrenia etc which addiction causes are a disability

Private busses clamp down on free passes?

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