What 'fuel' does the train use in Ireland?

Asmooh · 18-07-2015 11:29am #1

I lived both in Holland and Sweden, also drove by train in Belgium and all using electric wires, I do see a few of them at Dublin Conolly but not at Heuston, the trains I have seen are all not using wires but I've never seen them 'refuelling' so I wonder, where do they drive on?

Timberrrrrrrr · 18-07-2015 11:31am

Asmooh wrote: »

I lived both in Holland and Sweden, also drove by train in Belgium and all using electric wires, I do see a few of them at Dublin Conolly but not at Heuston, the trains I have seen are all not using wires but I've never seen them 'refuelling' so I wonder, where do they drive on?

Electric wires are for the DART (Dublin Area Rapid Transport) it doesn't run through Houston so no need for them there, I believe the locomotives are run on diesel (I could be wrong though).

Asmooh · 18-07-2015 11:33am

The dart to maynooth don't use them.. I've never seen one that uses them ï¿¼

If it's diesel it's weird that they still use diesel trains in 2015..

my friend · 18-07-2015 11:33am

The Paul Murphy Train uses hot air

flyingsnail · 18-07-2015 11:35am

Asmooh wrote: »

The dart to maynooth don't use them.. I've never seen one that uses them

The DART doesn't go to Maynooth, The Dart only runs from Greystones to Howth and Malahide outside of this are all services are run exclusively on diesel

Irish rail gives some fleet details here http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/fleet

Asmooh · 18-07-2015 11:40am

flyingsnail wrote: »

The DART doesn't go to Maynooth, The Dart only runs from Greystones to Howth and Malahide outside of this are all services are run exclusively on diesel

Irish rail gives some fleet details here http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/fleet

Ahh.. still weird diesel in 2015.

Anyway here it says maynooth : http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dart

Nevermind, they are 'Commuter'

SeanW · 18-07-2015 11:46am

Most Irish trains use diesel. Only the Luas trams (the Red Line from the Point, via Connolly, to Tallaght and Saggart, and the Green Line from Bride's Glen to St. Stephens Green) and the DART heavy rail (from Greystones, Co. Wicklow to Malahide and Howth, via Connolly, Tara St and Pearse) run off electricity.

While electric trains are nicer, no smoke and a lot less noise, they're not worthwhile when run on infrequent services, like most of our Intercity lines, and they don't save any pollution because Ireland is dependent on natural gas for electric power. that gets worse the more renewables you add because renewables are literally as reliable as the weather and have to be backed up by something very flexible, and only natural gas and hydroelectricity fit that bill.

If we were going to electrify everything, it would be necessary to have a strategy for nuclear electricity, but good luck getting that past the environmental left.

Asmooh · 18-07-2015 12:19pm

SeanW wrote:

If we were going to electrify everything, it would be necessary to have a strategy for nuclear electricity, but good luck getting that past the environmental left.

This explains a lot why they are using diesel

SeanW · 18-07-2015 1:18pm

I think I gave the wrong impression above, they could electrify the railways and build more gas plants, but that wouldn't make much sense.

Del.Monte · 18-07-2015 1:20pm

Is it only lefties that are environmentalists?

Captain Chaos · 18-07-2015 1:46pm

It's cheaper to use diesel than electrify the network and buy all new rolling stock to use it and build more power stations. Oil is at it cheapest in years and is due to hit an all time low price per barrel next year as Iran start to flood the market with sanctions lifted.

Yet fare prices will go up next year and IE will blame increasing fuel costs as usual.

Jamie2k9 · 18-07-2015 3:59pm

Yet fare prices will go up next year and IE will blame increasing fuel costs as usual.

They will go up to restore staff pay from next September.

Often wonder if they will try not restore the pay, can't see staff letting it go even if they are paying reduced taxes!

Bet they will make a profit this year just about and be back in the red from next year.

I lived both in Holland and Sweden, also drove by train in Belgium and all using electric wires, I do see a few of them at Dublin Conolly but not at Heuston, the trains I have seen are all not using wires but I've never seen them 'refuelling' so I wonder, where do they drive on?

Fuel is loaded at depots/main stations (a full tank would cover a days work for most units) and they load at platforms in Heuston but it's generally before passengers board but not always.

Markcheese · 19-07-2015 8:08am

SeanW wrote: »

Most Irish trains use diesel. Only the Luas trams (the Red Line from the Point, via Connolly, to Tallaght and Saggart, and the Green Line from Bride's Glen to St. Stephens Green) and the DART heavy rail (from Greystones, Co. Wicklow to Malahide and Howth, via Connolly, Tara St and Pearse) run off electricity.

While electric trains are nicer, no smoke and a lot less noise, they're not worthwhile when run on infrequent services, like most of our Intercity lines, and they don't save any pollution because Ireland is dependent on natural gas for electric power. that gets worse the more renewables you add because renewables are literally as reliable as the weather and have to be backed up by something very flexible, and only natural gas and hydroelectricity fit that bill.

If we were going to electrify everything, it would be necessary to have a strategy for nuclear electricity, but good luck getting that past the environmental left.

What do you think the nuclear power stations are backed up by ? ( and renewables are probably more predictable than unreliable nuclear )

end of the road · 19-07-2015 2:08pm

Asmooh wrote: »

The dart to maynooth don't use them.. I've never seen one that uses them ï¿¼

If it's diesel it's weird that they still use diesel trains in 2015..

the arrow to maynooth is diesel as well. its not one bit weird that diesel is still being used in 2015. plenty of countries have diesel operation of varying amounts.

pablo128 · 19-07-2015 2:11pm

Strictly speaking, the trains are electric powered. The diesel engine is more of a generator. The motor that powers the wheels is an electric motor.

SeanW · 19-07-2015 3:11pm

Markcheese wrote: »

What do you think the nuclear power stations are backed up by ? ( and renewables are probably more predictable than unreliable nuclear )

In france, nuclear power stations are backed up by hydroelectricity and other nuclear power stations. Total >90% non-fossil energy supply. Especially given the frequency/speed of many of their trains, makes it a very good idea to electrify large amounts of railway network in France.

"Renewables" don't make me laugh. Non-hydro/biofuel renewables are literally as reliable as the weather, and they cause serious grid-reliability isssues when the weather and power demands seriously diverge. They (wind mills in particular) do nothing but guzzle subsidies and produce nothing but visual pollution and bird and bat kills. And they will never safely replace a single thermal or nuclear power station because there will always be a need to provide backup for when the wind dies down. Or for when the wind whips up but nobody is using much electricity ...

Combine this with the fact that electric trains only make sense when the trains are frequent or very fast (like the French TGV, German ICE or American ACELA) and there's not much point in electrifying any Irish railways except possibly Connolly-Maynooth, Kildare to Heuston and onwards via Dart Ungerground, some more Luas/Metro and MAYBE the Cork suburban at a stretch.

SpaceTime · 19-07-2015 3:13pm

pablo128 wrote: »

Strictly speaking, the trains are electric powered. The diesel engine is more of a generator. The motor that powers the wheels is an electric motor.

Actually the majority of Irish trains are now diesel-hydraulic. The 22000s aren't electrically driven.

In general though low population density and a history of very low expenditure on infrastructure over the decades meant the cheapest possible solution was used : diesel.

Asmooh · 19-07-2015 3:26pm

How about...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/A_maglev_train_coming_out,_Pudong_International_Airport,_Shanghai.jpg ?

make something like this:

24BF88D900000578-2913214-The_proposal_by_IPPR_North_claims_that_a_transatlantic_train_jou-a-63_1421417732382.jpg

Peregrinus · 20-07-2015 2:53am

Basically, there's a big capital cost in electrifying a railway line. You need to be running a lot of trains on the line before the investment makes financial sense. Which is why, generally, heavily used urban and commuter lines tend to be electrified, but long-distance lines not necessarily so. Worldwide, only about 25% of railway lines (by length) are electrified, but they carry about 50% of worldwide traffic. That basically points to the link between traffic density and electrification.

The OP mentions Sweden where, apparently, he has observed only electric trains. In fact only about 60% of the Swedish rail network is electrified, but that carries much more than 60% of the traffic, and it is evidently the only part on which the OP has travelled. I don't have corresponding figures for the Netherlands and Belgium, but since both have very high population density I expect their lines are more than 60% electrified. In Britain, by contrast, less than 35% of the lines are electrified.

Victor · 28-07-2015 8:19pm

These maps give a good indication of the extent of electrification in any given country. I think Switzerland has the highest % electrification in the world.

http://www.itoworld.com/map/68

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/maps.php

Analysis of interoperability

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/voltage.php

Asmooh wrote: »

make something like this:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/16/24BF88D900000578-2913214-The_proposal_by_IPPR_North_claims_that_a_transatlantic_train_jou-a-63_1421417732382.jpg

http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/hyperloop-tube.png

You don't put dreamers in charge of your money or your infrastructure. The problem with Hyperloop is that it can carry very few people per hour, whereas a train can carry a thousand people and you can have one every few minutes.

purplepanda · 28-07-2015 10:03pm

Plenty of intercity routes all over Europe using diesel trainsets, including the DSB IC3 "rubberhead" I traveled on from starting at Hamburg, we joined at Oldenburg / Puttgarden via train ferry to Copenhagen yesterday.

It's obviously not worth electrifying the single track line in that region of Germany or Denmark.

Stinicker · 28-07-2015 11:04pm

I wonder do trains use Agricultural Diesel or ordinary Road Diesel?

flyingsnail · 28-07-2015 11:16pm

Stinicker wrote: »

I wonder do trains use Agricultural Diesel or ordinary Road Diesel?

Agri diesel

nokia69 · 31-07-2015 10:54am

SeanW wrote: »

Combine this with the fact that electric trains only make sense when the trains are frequent or very fast (like the French TGV, German ICE or American ACELA) and there's not much point in electrifying any Irish railways except possibly Connolly-Maynooth, Kildare to Heuston and onwards via Dart Ungerground, some more Luas/Metro and MAYBE the Cork suburban at a stretch.

I disagree, electric trains are more efficient than Diesel need less maintenance and are faster, the overall running costs are lower, we should have started converting to electric years ago

Terrontress · 31-07-2015 11:03am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Fuel is loaded at depots/main stations (a full tank would cover a days work for most units) and they load at platforms in Heuston but it's generally before passengers board but not always.

Sorry for all the questions but:

Is there a fuel gauge?
What size are the tanks?
Is there a published mpg?
Is the refueling method similar to a road vehicle?

flyingsnail · 31-07-2015 11:23am

Is there a fuel gauge?
Yes on the side of the tanks

What size are the tanks?
Dont know about railcar but 201 and 071 are 4500 and 3600L respectively

Is there a published mpg?
No idea, I think these are quoted in per ton per mile (or maybe that's just freight)

Is the refuelling method similar to a road vehicle?
Similar but there is a locking mechanism on the nozzle to prevent detachment during filling and the hose is a lot bigger :P

Terrontress · 31-07-2015 9:57pm

Thanks for the answers flying snail.

So a driver can't tell from inside the cab if he is running low? It must be part of the checks they undertake before setting off.

4,500l of fuel, and from what I have read here, that does one day's travel. Presume two return trips to Cork, 800km. 4,500 for 800km is about 5.6l / km so 560l / 100km which I think is half a mile to the gallon. Which seems quite good to me for a train.

None of this is for any particular reason, just my twisted curiosity.

Captain Chaos · 31-07-2015 11:42pm

The later batch of 201 locos have electronic fuel gauges in the cabs so the driver can see it in real time.

When the 201s were in HEP mode on the Enterprise diagrams they could only manage 1.5 return trips before needing to refuel. Very high consumption but that all in the past now as HEP mode is not removed and the EGVs fill that role.

gctest50 · 31-07-2015 11:48pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Sorry for all the questions but:

Is there a fuel gauge?
What size are the tanks?
Is there a published mpg?
Is the refueling method similar to a road vehicle?

bit like this - you can see the level gauge

GM228 · 01-08-2015 4:03pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

Is there a fuel gauge?
Yes on the side of the tanks

What size are the tanks?
Dont know about railcar but 201 and 071 are 4500 and 3600L respectively

Is there a published mpg?
No idea, I think these are quoted in per ton per mile (or maybe that's just freight)

Is the refuelling method similar to a road vehicle?
Similar but there is a locking mechanism on the nozzle to prevent detachment during filling and the hose is a lot bigger :P

All classes of railcar hold 1000ltrs per car except 22000 which hold 1200lts, fuel gauges in cabs of 29 and 22 and low fuel warnings (when 200ltrs or less) in all railcar and loco cabs including NIR 80s and 450s. On average the railcars do about 1 mile per litre with a full load of passengers but obviously that will vary from season to season and depending on if all engines are running and if a commuter, InterCity, ECS etc.

201 cab fuel gauges were all disconnected years ago due to inaccuracies.

Aswell as the locking mechanism all fuel tanks also have a screw on cap for secondary fueling from road tankers etc.

There is no MPG published, even modern traction does not do this like a car!

In the UK Colas have recently begun trialling their locos on their tank trains to work out fuel consumption, 56s, 60s, 66s and 70s have all been deployed to equal loads with an equal amount of fuel which is the measured at the end of the journey to work out the consumption, modern enough locos and it still has to be worked out manually!

GM228

Marcusm · 01-08-2015 5:17pm

Asmooh wrote: »

Ahh.. still weird diesel in 2015.

Anyway here it says maynooth : http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dart

Nevermind, they are 'Commuter'

Diesel trains are not that weird; plenty of diesel stock in the UK, both mutiple units and locos. In fact, the forthcoming InterCity Express in the UK has been designed to accommodate diesel only as well as electric running. That being said, many view that particular piece of kit as a camel.

end of the road · 01-08-2015 5:32pm

Marcusm wrote: »

Diesel trains are not that weird; plenty of diesel stock in the UK, both mutiple units and locos. In fact, the forthcoming InterCity Express in the UK has been designed to accommodate diesel only as well as electric running. That being said, many view that particular piece of kit as a camel.

thats right. the diesel is for backup and for running off wire. the engines in most however are de-rated so diesel speeds will be lower (personally i believe that to be ridiculous) all be it i suppose where diesel would mostly be used the speeds would be lower anyway, so maybe it isn't an issue after all. the ones for the great western however will have the engines at full power and higher capacity fuel tanks.

GM228 · 01-08-2015 5:49pm

Marcusm wrote: »

the forthcoming InterCity Express in the UK has been designed to accommodate diesel only as well as electric running. That being said, many view that particular piece of kit as a camel.

They will also be the first diesel engines to be fully EU Stage IIIB compliant I believe.

GM228

Victor · 01-08-2015 8:51pm

end of the road wrote: »

thats right. the diesel is for backup and for running off wire.

I think it's more complicated than that. There will be different sub-models with different capabilities. Some may be all diesel.

Marcusm · 01-08-2015 9:00pm

Victor wrote: »

I think it's more complicated than that. There will be different sub-models with different capabilities. Some may be all diesel.

Definitely not, in fact the design has been complicated by the requirement to be able to remove the diesel motors entirely when electrification of some of the relevant lines (principally GW, doubt EC will ever be fully electrified all the way) is complete.

Jamie2k9 · 01-08-2015 10:46pm

Victor wrote: »

I think it's more complicated than that. There will be different sub-models with different capabilities. Some may be all diesel.

The opposite around 20 units will be electric only for Bristol/S Wales service. The full order is for 140 mph with a mix of 5 and 9 units.

Jamie2k9 · 02-08-2015 12:11am

end of the road wrote: »

thats right. the diesel is for backup and for running off wire. the engines in most however are de-rated so diesel speeds will be lower (personally i believe that to be ridiculous) all be it i suppose where diesel would mostly be used the speeds would be lower anyway, so maybe it isn't an issue after all. the ones for the great western however will have the engines at full power and higher capacity fuel tanks.

I don't believe speeds will be lower, spec is for electric to diesel change at line speed.

The engines are V12 (like 201's) and just to compare our 201's have a 3200 HP where as a 5 piece unit will have 3500 HP and a 9 piece unit will have 6300 HP

Stephen15 · 29-08-2015 1:54pm

I think the Belfast line should be electrified there's been talk for years about extending the dart to drogheda or Dundalk but why not go all the way to Belfast. They could introduce a few of them pendolinos to up the speed.

Stephen15 · 29-08-2015 2:03pm

SeanW wrote: »

If we were going to electrify everything, it would be necessary to have a strategy for nuclear electricity, but good luck getting that past the environmental left.

No Italy does not have any nuclear reactors and it has about 75% of its network electricfied even some narrow gauge lines there are electrified.

end of the road · 29-08-2015 3:20pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think the Belfast line should be electrified there's been talk for years about extending the dart to drogheda or Dundalk but why not go all the way to Belfast. They could introduce a few of them pendolinos to up the speed.

i agree, but you would need a lot more upgrades to the infrastructure then electrification to allow for 125 MPH. unless you want tilt, which i'm not sure the belfast line would need, a pendolino type train would not be necessary, a conventional 125 MPH capible EMU would suffice, which many manufacturers build

Captain Chaos · 29-08-2015 4:49pm

You wouldn't even need EMUs. Class 91 loco with BREL MK4s and DVT, Irish gauge bogies, job is oxo. One can dream.

end of the road · 29-08-2015 6:33pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

You wouldn't even need EMUs. Class 91 loco with BREL MK4s and DVT, Irish gauge bogies, job is oxo. One can dream.

they look like nice carriges indeed. sadly never have and never will experience them for myself though. i bet their class 800/1 replacements won't be a patch on them.

tabbey · 30-08-2015 9:48pm

There are two problems with accelerating Dublin - Belfast services. Firstly, they run through the northern suburbs at bicycle speeds because of DART services bringing all train speeds down to the lowest common denominator. Secondly, apart from Lisburn - Portadown and some of the Dublin - Drogheda section, curvature restricts potential speed on most of the route.

Pendolino trains might be a solution, either diesel or eventually, electric.

Although pendolino trains operate on Britain's West Coast line, and their loading gauge is usually tighter than in Ireland, there is no certainty that the GNR route would be approved for this stock. An alternative train might be the Queensland diesel tilt train which runs between Brisbane and Cairns.

Regarding electrification of the GNR mainline to Belfast, while 1,500 volts dc is possible, This entails a greater number of transformer substations and heavier overhead wires. In practice 25,000 volts ac would be more economical in the long run, over extended distances. This would require additional raising of bridges to provide adequate clearance needed for the higher voltage.

SeanW · 02-09-2015 11:53am

Stephen15 wrote: »

No Italy does not have any nuclear reactors and it has about 75% of its network electricfied even some narrow gauge lines there are electrified.

Yes you can have electric railways without nuclear power (or a lot of hydro or geothermal like Scandinavia/Iceland) but it's pointless - all you've done is burn fossil fuels in a power plant and transmit the power with energy losses en-route, instead of burning the fossil fuels on the train. Irelands' energy strategy involves dickering around with windmills and backing them up with gas. Also subsidising peat. Pointless.
Italy imports nuclear electricity from France.
Italy has 60 million people.

Stephen15 · 02-09-2015 9:36pm

SeanW wrote: »

Yes you can have electric railways without nuclear power (or a lot of hydro or geothermal like Scandinavia/Iceland) but it's pointless - all you've done is burn fossil fuels in a power plant and transmit the power with energy losses en-route, instead of burning the fossil fuels on the train. Irelands' energy strategy involves dickering around with windmills and backing them up with gas. Also subsidising peat. Pointless.

The same could be said about electric cars

Peregrinus · 03-09-2015 2:17am

SeanW wrote: »

Yes you can have electric railways without nuclear power (or a lot of hydro or geothermal like Scandinavia/Iceland) but it's pointless - all you've done is burn fossil fuels in a power plant and transmit the power with energy losses en-route, instead of burning the fossil fuels on the train. Irelands' energy strategy involves dickering around with windmills and backing them up with gas. Also subsidising peat. Pointless.

It's not quite so straightforward, since the fuel efficiency (the percentage of the total energy contained in the fuel which is applied to do work) may be much greater for the static power station than for the the smaller mobile power plant contained in the locomotive. This may more than offset losses due to transmission, resulting in a considerable net saving when the system moves from diesel-electric to electric.

kc56 · 03-09-2015 8:25pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not quite so straightforward, since the fuel efficiency (the percentage of the total energy contained in the fuel which is applied to do work) may be much greater for the static power station than for the the smaller mobile power plant contained in the locomotive. This may more than offset losses due to transmission, resulting in a considerable net saving when the system moves from diesel-electric to electric.

The efficiency of a diesel engine can be up to 50% particularly those with high compression ratios. The most efficient thermal power generation plants are the combined cycle gas-steam plants which can attain 60%. Convention thermal plants like Moneypoint operate nearer 35%. Even at 60% when losses are taken into account it is unlikely to be more efficient than burning diesel in a locomotive or DMU. Electric power comes into it's own when there are supplies of cheap energy such as found in places like Switzerland and Norway or for high traffic commuter routes.

What 'fuel' does the train use in Ireland?

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