Irish Times Podcast: Fintan O Toole vs Pat Rabbite

Dannyboy83 · 04-12-2014 2:11am #1

If you've not heard the podcast, it's available here:
https://soundcloud.com/irishtimes-politics/pat-rabbitte-and-fintan-otoole

Fintan O Toole would not be someone I would typically read or pay much attention to, not that I pay much attention to Irish politics in general any more anyway, but I would have considered him too left for my liking in the past.
I was fairly pleasantly surprised to hear him expressing many of the same opinions I hold myself and putting forward some of the questions I would like to be put forward.

Pat Rabbite would typically be among the heavy artillery of the Labour spin and deflection arsenal, but even Pat couldn't find a thread to work with.

Low point is probably:
FOT: "Why didn't the cabinet expose the illegal threats by the ECB publicly and bring international pressure to bear?"
PR: "You may aswell be suggesting we attack Germany".

Not going to give a blow by blow, but listening to this felt like the kiss of death - it reminded me of Garglegate before Fianna Fail were wiped out.

Labour are screwed.

jank · 04-12-2014 2:30am

Cheers, will listen to it now and post up my findings..

jank · 04-12-2014 7:23am

Finally got through it.... jaysus, it was long..!

Tbh they are both as bad as each other. I respect Rabbite as a politician even though I have no time for Labour. I do not however, have much respect for Fintan O'Toole though as the easiest thing in the world is to expect utopia and then complain constantly and insistently why we don't have it. Remember this is the same guy who wanted to run for office but could not get his posters printed in time.... yet he expects others to do the dirty work for him?

...Post a column in the Irish times at 11 am, lunch from 12-1, reading and research from 1-3, home by 4 to read some high brow literature with a glass of vino and crackers.... This probably summarises his day or at least that is how he comes across.

Fintan is the classic left wing journalist who lives in the ivory tower yet has all the answers. Many of the same problems centrist political parties are having now in Ireland are occurring right across the world. There is a fragmentation of the centre right across the Western world, yet Fintan does not even recognise or acknowledge this in the Irish context

We have journalists like him over on this side of the world but at least they are more practical and reasonable. His overbearing cynicism and negativity is just too much and must be a reflection of his Irish environment. Cheer up Fintan, its not all doom and gloom.

As for Rabbite, well he is a slugger and has been around the game a long time. I doubt very much if he will get re-elected or even if he will put himself forward. This will be the end of many of a long line of Labour TD's like himself, Quinn, Gilmore, Burton, White and so on.

The 'old' left most of which are more concerned with middle class urban Dubliners than working class areas will be no more. Who will the smoked salmon socialists vote for now? Probably the greens, they have a great opportunity here to mop up votes.

The 'new' left are more whacky and looney. From AAA, PBP and the Socialists with their purely insane economic policies to the Shinners with their slightly less insane but insane none the less economic policies (never mind their less than stellar personal history) I feel there may be a time in the next 5-10 years that fiscal conservatives like myself harp back to the days a sane and practical left voice....

Cyclingtourist · 04-12-2014 12:32pm

Romantic idealist v pragmatic politician.

Which would you choose to run the country?

The_Captain · 05-12-2014 11:36am

Cyclingtourist wrote: »

Romantic idealist v pragmatic politician.

Which would you choose to run the country?

Considering Pat Rabbitte has spent the last five years just running his mouth off at voters and anyone who questions him, then acts like a petulant child when he realises how unpopular he is, I'd have to go with Fintan O'Toole

nokia69 · 06-12-2014 7:31am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Labour are screwed.

maybe

some of their big names won't run in the next election so they will lose seats that they could have held

but I still think they will keep their public sector union vote and will be part of the next government

FG + FF + lab will form the next government IMO

Dannyboy83 · 07-12-2014 12:13am

Cyclingtourist wrote: »

Romantic idealist v pragmatic politician.

Which would you choose to run the country?

I would consider Leo Varadkar pragmatic.

"We can't achieve A in timeframe B due to xyz"
"We can't achieve a Cork-Limerick motorway before 2023, unless we could increase funding"

"We can't achieve a debt free Cork Airport before the DAA has resolved it's pension issues, unless we could massively increase inward flights"

"We can't achieve UHI before 2019, due to the financial burden it would place on families"

If something cannot be done, and it's honestly communicated with genuine reasoning, that
A) improves my confidence/trust in the Minister/Manager/whoever

alleviates cynicism

When politicians conduct themselves in this fashion, they convey themselves as servants of the state.

Contrast that with Pat Rabbite in that interview, the overriding theme was resistance to change - there was clarity with regard to what needs to change with very little belief that it could happen.
Hostility to questioning with no clear explanations, whataboutery & recrimination, condescension, weary apathy and 'cannot do' attitude.
That's not pragmatism and obviously not romanticism, it's defeatism.

I feel like Jank's summation was quite fair and accurate.
Fintan O Toole is all what he described.
That's fine by me tho, we don't have to like him yet he is fulfilling the role of the Fourth Estate.
The irony here of course, is that the interview was initially prompted by Pat Rabbite attacking Fintan O Toole for being 'excessively criticial and pessimistic of Labour'.

I can only say that Pat Rabbite must be completely out of touch, because FOT was voicing the opinions of former Labour supporters the length and breadth of the country.

I believe Pat Rabbite and the dismally dysfunctional old dogs who cannot learn new tricks need to step aside - now -, so that Labour in general can undergo an entire culture change and prevent their destruction at the next GE.
Ireland needs a functional Labour party.

Good loser · 07-12-2014 12:58am

Just listened to that podcast.

The host, Hugh Linehan, was outstanding. Way better then most of the types on RTE, Today FM etc.

Felt Pat Rabbitte (I am a non-Labour fan) won the debate hands down.

FOT (always a tool imo) broke into interruptions around half way - a sure sign he felt he was being bested. Don't think any serious point of his stood up.

Surely Labour didn't promise a new constitution before the last election? I have no recollection of that anyway.

What FOT basically wanted was to play Russian Roulette with the economy without knowing how many bullets were in the chambers. As a keyboard warrior then if we lost he could always say 'it was worth a try' or 'if I was in there it would have been different'. It's the country would have suffered.

Cyclingtourist · 07-12-2014 12:19pm

Fintan has plenty of notice for the next general election so can start getting his campaign team together.

If he got elected there's a chance he could wangle himself some position of power. I'm confident in six months he'd be complaining about lack of balance in media reporting.

Good loser · 07-12-2014 11:13pm

Cyclingtourist wrote: »

Fintan has plenty of notice for the next general election so can start getting his campaign team together.

If he got elected there's a chance he could wangle himself some position of power. I'm confident in six months he'd be complaining about lack of balance in media reporting.

He's always quite touchy about 'balance' when he debates adversarily.

BehindTheScenes · 12-12-2014 4:21pm

Thanks for posting, that was a good listen.

I despise Fianna Fáil but when I hear the likes of Pat Rabbite it makes me realise how much less I think of Labour. Fine Gael they're a bunch of pro treaty free wheeling capitalists, fair enough it's who they are.

From interviews like this I take from it that they want to run the place like there was a Politburo in place yet at the same time give time espouse the virtues of democracy. His crying over the use of the guillotine, Irish water and that he couldn't do anything about it is nonsense, he's a minster at the heart of government. If he can't do anything who can, I know sure as hell I can't.

The selfishness of politicians here means we'll never be truly great. All the self serving will take away from our best. These guys just want us to serve them, certainly not the other way around.

Felt Fintan made some good points. Also that the interruption was down to frustration, which I'm sure many people feel publicly, Pat used the old trick of talking slurry to muddle through the question without answering it.

Cyclingtourist · 12-12-2014 4:53pm

BehindTheScenes wrote: »

Thanks for posting, that was a good listen.

I despise Fianna Fáil but when I hear the likes of Pat Rabbite it makes me realise how much less I think of Labour. Fine Gael they're a bunch of anti treaty free wheeling capitalists, fair enough it's who they are.

That's funny.

Idbatterim · 16-12-2014 4:33pm

good post Jank, I would disagree with the below though

The 'old' left most of which are more concerned with middle class urban Dubliners than working class areas will be no more. Who will the smoked salmon socialists vote for now? Probably the greens, they have a great opportunity here to mop up votes.

I would say Labour represent the non working class, not the working class... Voting for the greens on a single issue is BS to me...

Dyr · 16-12-2014 6:36pm

nokia69 wrote: »

but I still think they will keep their public sector union vote and will be part of the next government

FG + FF + lab will form the next government IMO

Jack O'Connor had to begrudgingly row SIPTU in behind the anti IW campaign due to pressure from members. Given that the SIPTU hierarchy is packed with labour party members that will tell you how much support labour can expect from the unions.

They're going to get the mother and father of a kicking at the ballot box

Idbatterim · 16-12-2014 6:45pm

well PS probably wont vote for Labour in numbers again, they certainly wont for SF, so possibly back to FF, but some people reckon there is not a chance in hell they would go in with FG or vice versa. Might makes sense of FF to sit this one out, they may reckon that by skipping another term and being on the opposition benches, that come the next election, they may be a bigger party than FG.

That said though, as economic recovery is about to take off, it could quite well be that come election 2021 (if the government goes the whole term) that the economy is doing good or ok and they say better the devil you know i.e. FG, similar to what happened during the boom....

Dannyboy83 · 16-12-2014 8:25pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

well PS probably wont vote for Labour in numbers again, they certainly wont for SF, so possibly back to FF, but some people reckon there is not a chance in hell they would go in with FG or vice versa. Might makes sense of FF to sit this one out, they may reckon that by skipping another term and being on the opposition benches, that come the next election, they may be a bigger party than FG.

Today yielded the first indications that they are now open to the prospect of coalition with FG.

http://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-sinn-fein-ira-1837211-Dec2014/
During the interview, Martin again ruled out a potential coalition between Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin after the next General Election.

So, what about a Fianna Fáil-Fine Gael coalition?
Martin said the current senior Government party is ”far too right wing for us” and had to be “dragged kicking and screaming on issues such as homelessness and water charges”.

This is the first time he hasn't explicitly ruled out an FG coalition, (contrast to how he was firm with regard to SF), that's as good as opening negotiations imo.

I think you are correct, PS will go with FF, seeking a centre-left coalition with FG.
This is the best outcome we could hope for in the circumstances. (I really strongly supported a lot of the things Lucinda Creighton had to say in the most recent podcast, but clearly she is not going to get anything off the ground in time)
I wouldn't expect the next government to yield any massive changes, but it will finally facilitate some realignment of the Irish political ball and socket, and provide the country with some level of stability for the next few years.

Labour will collapse and hopefully reform into something coherent over the next several years.

The Irish political establishment clearly feel the pressure, but it's important that Sinn Fein continue to do well in the polls over the coming months, FF & MM have a tendency to get greedy as we know too well!

Idbatterim · 17-12-2014 2:01am

Martin said the current senior Government party is ”far too right wing for us” and had to be “dragged kicking and screaming on issues such as homelessness and water charges”.

did he say this with a straight face? FG too right wing LOL LOL! Goebbels would be proud. So it begins again, after Labours every little hurts, FF are now going for exactly the same tactic... Just when I thought I couldnt think any lower of FF. What is even the more scary is the rhetoric is so simple child like and people fall for it in their droves. I can only prey that another fiscally conservative and responsible party and / or group of "like minded" independents form and they can keep these economic and society wreckers out of government...

(I really strongly supported a lot of the things Lucinda Creighton had to say in the most recent podcast, but clearly she is not going to get anything off the ground in time)

you reckon? I think there is ample time, the other thing is, you wouldnt want to peak well before an election, Shane Ross has mentioned this also, coming out at the right time will be very important for a new party...

The way I see it now, there are no parties of any note, that arent left leaning other than FG and I would put them in the centre... We need a few centre right options... Not because I think screw those with less than me, but I actually think that these parties create far more problems than they solve and are the detriment to us all...

Good loser · 17-12-2014 9:33pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

did he say this with a straight face? FG too right wing LOL LOL! Goebbels would be proud. So it begins again, after Labours every little hurts, FF are now going for exactly the same tactic... Just when I thought I couldnt think any lower of FF. What is even the more scary is the rhetoric is so simple child like and people fall for it in their droves. I can only prey that another fiscally conservative and responsible party and / or group of "like minded" independents form and they can keep these economic and society wreckers out of government...

you reckon? I think there is ample time, the other thing is, you wouldnt want to peak well before an election, Shane Ross has mentioned this also, coming out at the right time will be very important for a new party...

The way I see it now, there are no parties of any note, that arent left leaning other than FG and I would put them in the centre... We need a few centre right options... Not because I think screw those with less than me, but I actually think that these parties create far more problems than they solve and are the detriment to us all...

Imagine - in the UK - The Conservatives are hoping to be re elected and one of their major policies is to continue to reduce the cost of social welfare.

Cyclingtourist · 17-12-2014 9:48pm

The best way to reduce the cost of social welfare is to increase employment.

Good loser · 17-12-2014 10:04pm

Cyclingtourist wrote: »

The best way to reduce the cost of social welfare is to increase employment.

I agree. Just surprised that 30 - 35% of Brits will vote for this and not one Indepenent, let alone a party, has it as a policy here.

Idbatterim · 17-12-2014 11:33pm

Imagine - in the UK - The Conservatives are hoping to be re elected and one of their major policies is to continue to reduce the cost of social welfare.

The thing is, i would only be for cutting it, if it is found to be at a level above what it needs to be, which I feel it is here in the vast majority of cases. It is significantly less in the Uk isnt it?

jank · 18-12-2014 1:36am

If someone campaigned on the mantra of that social welfare creates a poverty trap (which it does) or why the Dept of Social welfare costs so much money relative to our tax base they would get destroyed at the polls. The heart rules the head for many even though we kid ourselves we are a mature society.

Take IW. Some people state that they would rather go to Jail than pay 65 euro a year for clean drinkable water, yet in the same breath after the death of John Corrie they would want more resources (as in money) to be spent helping the homeless as the current scenario is a 'disgrace' blah blah blah.... Sinn Fein for example pushed through a 15% reduction in local property tax in Dublin City. Great, but that also means less money to be spent on local provisions like, yes you guessed it, helping the homeless.

Good loser · 18-12-2014 11:51am

jank wrote: »

If someone campaigned on the mantra of that social welfare creates a poverty trap (which it does) or why the Dept of Social welfare costs so much money relative to our tax base they would get destroyed at the polls. The heart rules the head for many even though we kid ourselves we are a mature society.

Take IW. Some people state that they would rather go to Jail than pay 65 euro a year for clean drinkable water, yet in the same breath after the death of John Corrie they would want more resources (as in money) to be spent helping the homeless as the current scenario is a 'disgrace' blah blah blah.... Sinn Fein for example pushed through a 15% reduction in local property tax in Dublin City. Great, but that also means less money to be spent on local provisions like, yes you guessed it, helping the homeless.

The homeless became an issue relatively recently. Once it did it was immediately added to the list of their demands by socialists/SF/independents. To 'solve' this thing could cost anything between €5 bn and €10 bn or more.

The thing is that all this money is to come from the same pot of funny/ money/ taxes ( wealth tax; income tax on over 100k/annum; more corporation tax) they had already laid out.

Maths - even arithmetic - is obviously outside theit competence.

The_Captain · 18-12-2014 3:53pm

jank wrote: »

If someone campaigned on the mantra of that social welfare creates a poverty trap (which it does) or why the Dept of Social welfare costs so much money relative to our tax base they would get destroyed at the polls. The heart rules the head for many even though we kid ourselves we are a mature society.

Take IW. Some people state that they would rather go to Jail than pay 65 euro a year for clean drinkable water, yet in the same breath after the death of John Corrie they would want more resources (as in money) to be spent helping the homeless as the current scenario is a 'disgrace' blah blah blah.... Sinn Fein for example pushed through a 15% reduction in local property tax in Dublin City. Great, but that also means less money to be spent on local provisions like, yes you guessed it, helping the homeless.

To be fair, most people object to the idea of double taxation in the water fiasco; and DCC ran a massive surplus on the LPT and hasn't spent that money improving services

Idbatterim · 18-12-2014 3:55pm

I agree. Just surprised that 30 - 35% of Brits will vote for this and not one Indepenent, let alone a party, has it as a policy here.

I am just reading the conservatives 2014 european election manifesto.

https://www.conservatives.com/~/media/Files/Downloadable%20Files/MANIFESTO%202014/Euro%20Manifesto%20English.ashx

Cutting incomes taxes and freezing fuel duty to help hard working people be more financially secure.

Creating more jobs by backing small business and enterprise with better infrastructure and lower job taxes

Capping welfare and reducing immigration, so our economy delivers for people who want to work and play by the rules.

Delivery the best school and skills for young people, so the next generation can succeed in a competitive world.

Maybe its a pity we every got our independence & Fg are deemed right wing, I wouldnt even class the conservatives as anything other than right of centre. What they propose makes sense... One English company has opened here and recently given us choice and options v the same old cosy cartell. I hope an equivalent of the Conservatives forms here, because FG certainly isnt it...

we have been shafted here with a lack of reform, billions more debt and same old same old. A fantastic Labour legacy... I'll heap the majority of blame on that on Labour and those who voted for them last time around. If that economic shock hasnt resulted in change here, nothing will...

Irish Times Podcast: Fintan O Toole vs Pat Rabbite

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