Citizenship

eoin5 · 23-08-2010 2:38pm #1

Is it possible for someone to give up their citizenship? Would they need dual citizenship in order to do so? I didn't see anything on the DFA site, I guess its not such a common request.

slimjimmc · 23-08-2010 4:16pm

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000047

How can I give up Irish Citizenship ?

Renunciation of Irish Citizenship:
If an Irish citizen of full age is or is about to become a citizen of another country and for that reason desires to denounce citizenship, he or she may do so, if ordinarily resident outside the state, by lodging with the Minister, a declaration of alienage in the prescribed manner, and upon lodgement of the declaration or, if not then a citizen of that country, upon becoming such, shall cease to be an Irish citizen.
An Irish citizen may not, except with the consent of the Minister, renounce Irish citizenship under this section during a time of war as defined in Article 28.3.3 of the constitution.

FreudianSlippers · 23-08-2010 4:28pm

Keep in mind that many countries allow dual citizenship with Ireland, including the USA.

Ian Whelan · 23-08-2010 4:50pm

I remember seeing a television interview with a guy called Adam Bilzerian who renounced his US citizenship and took citizenship of Saint Kitts and Nevis. He described how he had to go through a very complicated visa application process in order to get back into the US to see his dying grandmother etc. It also seems that revocaion is irrevocable.

seamus · 23-08-2010 5:23pm

Ian Whelan wrote: »

It also seems that revocaion is irrevocable.

I imagine that you can go through naturalisation/citizenship processes just like any other immigrant, but you will forever be considered to a citizen through naturalisation rather than birth.

Some countries require that you surrender your passport when taking on their citizenship, however the Irish government really don't care and it's rarely necessary to actually revoke your citizenship. It's certainly not something which should ever be done lightly - as pointed out above, you could find yourself in great difficulty if you had to return home.

From the OP, you cannot renounce your citizenship if you do not have citizenship of another country. One of the treaties/charters requires that all people have the right to citizenship of at least one country (afair).

slimjimmc · 23-08-2010 5:44pm

Ian Whelan wrote: »

I remember seeing a television interview with a guy called Adam Bilzerian who renounced his US citizenship and took citizenship of Saint Kitts and Nevis. He described how he had to go through a very complicated visa application process in order to get back into the US to see his dying grandmother etc. It also seems that revocaion is irrevocable.

Renouncing Irish citizenship is not irrevocable, you can reclaim a renounced Irish citizenship at any time.

Treehouse72 · 23-08-2010 6:01pm

Ian Whelan wrote: »

I remember seeing a television interview with a guy called Adam Bilzerian who renounced his US citizenship and took citizenship of Saint Kitts and Nevis. He described how he had to go through a very complicated visa application process in order to get back into the US to see his dying grandmother etc. It also seems that revocaion is irrevocable.

The US is a very different kettle of fish. It is remarkably difficult to give up your American citizenship and remarkably difficult to get it back again.

Our man in Havana · 23-08-2010 7:15pm

slimjimmc wrote: »

Renouncing Irish citizenship is not irrevocable, you can reclaim a renounced Irish citizenship at any time.

Correct. If you were born here prior to 2004 you are an Irish citizen by birth. So any renouncement can be voided by asserting your right to citizenship by birth.

Treehouse72 wrote: »

The US is a very different kettle of fish. It is remarkably difficult to give up your American citizenship and remarkably difficult to get it back again.

It has to be renounced in front of consular officials at a US embassy abroad. That is the easy bit. Once renounced it impossible to get it back.

FreudianSlippers · 23-08-2010 7:16pm

I got a US passport when my dad was working over there when I was in my early teens. I've had to make sure to never let it lapse because doing so could be considered a renouncement of my citizenship (apparently).
The US is quite strict on that sort of thing.

Dandelion6 · 24-08-2010 11:15pm

OisinT wrote: »

I got a US passport when my dad was working over there when I was in my early teens. I've had to make sure to never let it lapse because doing so could be considered a renouncement of my citizenship (apparently).
The US is quite strict on that sort of thing.

No, that's incorrect. You can only renounce your US citizenship by renouncing it.

If you have dual citizenship, there are certain things you can do that will remove the presumption that you intend to retain your US citizenship (such as taking a policy-level position in a foreign government), but even then, at most you may be asked to appear before a consular officer and say yes, I really do want to remain a US citizen. You cannot be deemed to have renounced it unless you have convinced the consular officer that it was your genuine intention to renounce it.

FreudianSlippers · 25-08-2010 2:15pm

Interesting to know... not that I really care lol I only use it ever to get through immigration faster.

metrovelvet · 25-08-2010 3:03pm

Dandelion6 wrote: »

No, that's incorrect. You can only renounce your US citizenship by renouncing it.

If you have dual citizenship, there are certain things you can do that will remove the presumption that you intend to retain your US citizenship (such as taking a policy-level position in a foreign government), but even then, at most you may be asked to appear before a consular officer and say yes, I really do want to remain a US citizen. You cannot be deemed to have renounced it unless you have convinced the consular officer that it was your genuine intention to renounce it.

But passport renewal is probably the best way to have documentation. I know both the US and the DFA give you ONE piece of paper that is to last forever and not replaceable under any circumstances. So if you lose that you are screwed. Passport better.

Dandelion6 · 26-08-2010 6:44am

metrovelvet wrote: »

I know both the US and the DFA give you ONE piece of paper that is to last forever and not replaceable under any circumstances. So if you lose that you are screwed.

It is possible to obtain replacements for your US birth certificate or naturalisation certificate.

I'm not sure what DFA piece of paper you mean. In Ireland it's the General Register Office (part of the Department of Health) that issues birth certificates and the Department of Justice that issues naturalisation certificates. Birth certificates can definitely be replaced, I'm not sure about naturalisation certificates though.

Dandelion6 · 26-08-2010 8:08am

Re last paragraph, I've just realised you must be referring to either the post-nuptial scheme (which no longer exists) or foreign births scheme. Not sure about reissue of those certificates either but I would find it hard to believe that there would be no way you could prove citizenship if you lost those documents. I mean presumably the relevant departments retain their own records which you could FOI if you needed to. Obviously having the passport would be easier though.

Grawns · 27-08-2010 10:38am

Funnily enough my daughters certificate of US Citizenship arrived today

( Consular report of birth abroad of a US citizen)
Had to jump through some hoops and will be getting her a US passport soon as the piece of paper is a bit flimsy.

Also I was told that if she ever travelled to US she would need to do so under her US passport.

Very happy that she has dual citizenship now as it opens up a world of possibilities in the future. If the OP was telking about giving up his Irish citizenship he would also lose all his rights as an EU citizen right? That would be a daft thing to do.

Our man in Havana · 27-08-2010 10:44am

You can't really lose it if you are an Irish citizen from birth as it can be regained at any time.

Grawns · 27-08-2010 10:49am

I guess but what a pointless exercise, I did not like dealing with the US embassy here so even if you can get it back - all that civil service shenanigans - who needs the grief.

FreudianSlippers · 27-08-2010 5:23pm

Grawns wrote: »

Funnily enough my daughters certificate of US Citizenship arrived today ( Consular report of birth abroad of a US citizen)
Had to jump through some hoops and will be getting her a US passport soon as the piece of paper is a bit flimsy.

Also I was told that if she ever travelled to US she would need to do so under her US passport.

Very happy that she has dual citizenship now as it opens up a world of possibilities in the future. If the OP was telking about giving up his Irish citizenship he would also lose all his rights as an EU citizen right? That would be a daft thing to do.

Yeah I go to the US on my US passport and back into Ireland on my Irish passport. I use Irish to go everywhere else.
That is what I was told specifically to do by US Embassy and DHS.

Dandelion6 · 27-08-2010 7:58pm

OisinT wrote: »

Yeah I go to the US on my US passport and back into Ireland on my Irish passport. I use Irish to go everywhere else.

If you're going outside the US or EU then you'd probably want to check the particular country's entry requirements. In some cases (e.g. Canada and Mexico, and from my own experience Ethiopia) the US passport would be an advantage.

Our man in Havana · 27-08-2010 8:00pm

Indeed. There is no obliglation to use the Irish passport once outside of the EU. The US passport is better for some countries.

FreudianSlippers · 27-08-2010 8:47pm

Dandelion6 wrote: »

If you're going outside the US or EU then you'd probably want to check the particular country's entry requirements. In some cases (e.g. Canada and Mexico, and from my own experience Ethiopia) the US passport would be an advantage.

I've found my Irish passport way better in Canada.

Our man in Havana · 27-08-2010 9:53pm

Travelling into Canada by land was an absolute curse with an Irish passport. A US passport would mean no trip to the office for a detailed interrogation.

Dandelion6 · 27-08-2010 10:06pm

OisinT wrote: »

I've found my Irish passport way better in Canada.

On what basis? The entry requirements for EU passport holders are stricter. Not a lot stricter admittedly, but enough, I would think.

FreudianSlippers · 28-08-2010 2:12pm

Dandelion6 wrote: »

On what basis? The entry requirements for EU passport holders are stricter. Not a lot stricter admittedly, but enough, I would think.

Don't know exactly, but when I've flown in to Canada I've found it much less hassle using my Irish passport tbh.

Our man in Havana · 28-08-2010 3:08pm

Aipports are a different kettle of fish.

FreudianSlippers · 28-08-2010 4:56pm

Haddockman wrote: »

Aipports are a different kettle of fish.

You really do like your fish

metrovelvet · 29-08-2010 8:46am

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Re last paragraph, I've just realised you must be referring to either the post-nuptial scheme (which no longer exists) or foreign births scheme. Not sure about reissue of those certificates either but I would find it hard to believe that there would be no way you could prove citizenship if you lost those documents. I mean presumably the relevant departments retain their own records which you could FOI if you needed to. Obviously having the passport would be easier though.

I was referring to foreign births. My own son has one from the DFA, which I was told he would only get one of. There are no more copies EVER. So I need to get him a passport ASAP.

I have a friend here, Irish born but American citizen as well, whose son was born here in Ireland and is entitled to US citizenship through her, but there are some problems with his father signing the papers and being too lazy to go to the embassy to get his son the citizenship [son is now four] so she has a document from the embassy which guarantees him citizesnhip which he can obtain independendtly of his parents when he is 18. She got this cert for him just in case his father never goes down to the embassy with them. Anyhow, the embassy told her the same thing about that cert that the DFA told me about the cert they gave me for my son. ONE AND NO REPLACEMENTS.

Grawns · 29-08-2010 9:15am

Yikes - I've scanned the cert and emailed a copy to my gmail but now I'm paranoid. Definitly going to get a her a passport now. They are very unpleasant to deal with in the US Embassy - real Flann O'Brian stuff

so wouldn't appreciate me losing the cert and requesting a replacment.

metrovelvet · 29-08-2010 10:03am

Grawns wrote: »

Yikes - I've scanned the cert and emailed a copy to my gmail but now I'm paranoid. Definitly going to get a her a passport now. They are very unpleasant to deal with in the US Embassy - real Flann O'Brian stuff so wouldn't appreciate me losing the cert and requesting a replacment.

They are a pain in the ass. There one particular lady in there, who's not even American, who isnt nice. Its better to ask for her supervisor.

I would certainly get the passport if I were you. Saying that I havent gotten my little one his Irish one yet! So I better take my own advice. But the DFA are a hell of lot more flexible. The US embassy is under so many rules and regulations now that they have to be very strict.

Don't lose the cert, because they will not give you another one. Get the passport.

In fact I think I should get a fireproof safe. My friend, who I mentioned previously, keeps hers in a fireproof safe.

Grawns · 29-08-2010 10:26am

Once I get the passport I will give the cert to our solicitor for safekeeping. Thanks for the heads up.

Citizenship

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