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Ivan the Terrible - John Demjanjuk Extradited to Germany

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Comments

  • #102
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Morlar wrote: »
    By anyones standards this is a bizzare and flimsy legal case, requiring special laws not previously used in Germany.

    Exactly, I find the application of a hashed up Ad-Hoc law, in order to secure a prosecution pretty disturbing. It's got a wiff of Roland Freisler about it.


  • #103
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Would people here think that if it was proven he had played a willing and active part at Sobibor, i.e. shooting prisoners, etc (in the classical depiction of a cruel camp guard) that he should be punished? I'm not saying he did this just trying to get a view or 2 on it. Opinions can be justified if a poster wants to make clear why there view is in a certain way.

    Also (or perhaps linked to above) does the fact that he was wrongly charged previously have any bearing on his treatment now?


  • #104
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Opinions can be justified if a poster wants to make clear why there view is in a certain way.

    It's not for you to impose pre-conditions on the expression of views/opinions/thoughts etc.
    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Also (or perhaps linked to above) does the fact that he was wrongly charged previously have any bearing on his treatment now?

    The fact that he was wrongly identified, wrongly prosecuted and wrongly convicted, in a previous death-penalty case as being someone completely different - is relevant in terms of the reliability of the ID process.

    It shows the unreliability of identifying a 90yr old as having been at one place, at one time, during a chaotic war 66 years ago. Add to that the fact that the FBI deemed the id card he was convicted upon to be a kgb forgery. Also the fact that there were no eyewitnesses to place him there, in fact eyewitnesses in the israel charge placed him somewhere completely different and of being a different person. It does all add up to make the whole thing a farce.

    Not to mention the fact that the id card even IF true would only place him at a location.

    Still no evidence of any specific crime.

    Hardly meets the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard. Putting someone at a specific location and presenting no evidence whatsoever of a specific crime, but instead extrapolating that well if was there he must have done X,Y,Z, seems to imply an presumption of guilt.


  • #105
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    It's not for you to impose pre-conditions on the expression of views/opinions/thoughts etc.

    Jaysus -you are hard work. I ask a simple generalised question- I would be interested in the answer from some of the more open minded posters to garner a consensus. Your whole post just repeats what you already said.

    Any takers for this?
    Would people here think that if it was proven he had played a willing and active part at Sobibor, i.e. shooting prisoners, etc (in the classical depiction of a cruel camp guard) that he should be punished? I'm not saying he did this just trying to get a view or 2 on it. Opinions can be justified if a poster wants to make clear why there view is in a certain way.

    Also (or perhaps linked to above) does the fact that he was wrongly charged previously have any bearing on his treatment now?


  • #106
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Jaysus -you are hard work. I ask a simple generalised question-

    Maybe you shouldn't try to put conditions on the discussion or on who can answer or how they can respond.
    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    I would be interested in the answer from some of the more open minded posters to garner a consensus. Your whole post just repeats what you already said.

    Any takers for this?

    It's a public forum, you can choose to ignore posters if you disagree with their view, but it is an open forum.

    For the record I have already responded to your specific question here :
    Morlar wrote: »
    The fact that he was wrongly identified, wrongly prosecuted and wrongly convicted, in a previous death-penalty case as being someone completely different - is relevant in terms of the reliability of the ID process.

    It shows the unreliability of identifying a 90yr old as having been at one place, at one time, during a chaotic war 66 years ago. Add to that the fact that the FBI deemed the id card he was convicted upon to be a kgb forgery. Also the fact that there were no eyewitnesses to place him there, in fact eyewitnesses in the israel charge placed him somewhere completely different and of being a different person. It does all add up to make the whole thing a farce.

    Not to mention the fact that the id card even IF true would only place him at a location.

    Still no evidence of any specific crime.

    Hardly meets the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard. Putting someone at a specific location and presenting no evidence whatsoever of a specific crime, but instead extrapolating that well if was there he must have done X,Y,Z, seems to imply an presumption of guilt.

    Which you chose to ignore. The other part of your post is a hypothetical scenario based on the assumption of this mans guilt.

    It adds nothing to the discussion in my view other than to create the association in peoples minds that this man must have done something.
    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Would people here think that if it was proven he had played a willing and active part at Sobibor, i.e. shooting prisoners, etc (in the classical depiction of a cruel camp guard) that he should be punished? I'm not saying he did this just trying to get a view or 2 on it. Opinions can be justified if a poster wants to make clear why there view is in a certain way.

    To answer that hypothetical scenario of guilt would probably depend on the case for the hypothetical defence. This is an actual survivor of stalin's holdomor, consrcipted into the red army, the same red-army you have frequently expressed were treated inhumanely in German captivity. If he chose to work for the Germans it would depend on whether or not he did it in order to survive, what specifically were his duties etc etc However as regards the actual case rather than this new 'hypothetical guilt case' the relevant points are above. Specifically around the 'beyond reasonable doubt' issue and the apparent 'presumption of guilt'.


  • #107
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    Maybe you shouldn't try to put conditions on the discussion or on who can answer or how they can respond.

    It's a public forum, you can choose to ignore posters if you disagree with their view, but it is an open forum.

    For the record I have already responded to your specific question here :

    It is a public forum, correct, thus I asked for proper responses as opposed to your reply which avoided answering my question. I did'nt ignore your reply, I just disregarded it as it didnt answer what I asked. You may have reasons why you don't want to answer it directly but you should allow others to do so.


  • #108
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    For anyone not that interested in a 'presumption of guilt-scenario based offshoot' to the thread, there is an interesting reality-based thread on the Demjanjuk trials (specifically the kgb card) here :

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=177122

    It contains among other things informative, factual posts made by a fee-based researcher who worked on the original Demjanjuk trial. It also contains a link to a site here (labelled a 'denier site' for an unknown reason) dedicated entirely to the question of the ID Card :

    http://www.xoxol.org/traw/photo.html

    In fact if you look at this close up picture here it does seem to show that the ID card contains a picture from different document which has been added to it (note the mis-stamp and staple holes). This may explain the russian refusal to allow experts to remove the card from the embassy premise (in addition to what is beneath the picture).

    http://www.xoxol.org/traw/id-demjanjuk-staple-holes.jpg

    The FBI-denounced ID card is also mysteriously identical to a card identifying a differnt soldier - check the handwriting and location of pen marks on both of these cards :

    Card A

    http://www.xoxol.org/traw/id-demjanjuk-outside-610x418.jpg
    http://www.xoxol.org/traw/id-demjanjuk-inside-610x424.jpg

    Card B

    http://www.xoxol.org/traw/id-demjanjuk-outside-molodukr.jpg

    I would recommend reading the 3-page thread to anyone interested in this subject.

    The axis history thread also contained this article which puts an interesting angle on recent developments. As a USA citizen he would have needed a high standard of evidence against him before extradition to face foreign charges. This was circumvented by withdrawing his citizenship, so he was deported rather than extradited. However Demjanjuk may now be in a position to revive his US nationality. The judge also confirms fraud on the part of the prosecutors in the case of his original deportation trial.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/us-judge-appoints-public-defender-for-demjanjuk-on-trial-in-germany-for-alleged-war-crimes/2011/05/10/AFPX7OjG_story.html
    CLEVELAND — A public defender was appointed Tuesday to represent the U.S. legal interests of a retired Ohio autoworker on trial in Germany for alleged Nazi war crimes, raising the prospect of renewing the decades-old case in

    American courts.

    U.S. District Court Judge Dan Polster issued a brief order approving the federal public defender’s request to represent John Demjanjuk, 90.

    The judge said the appointment won’t affect Demjanjuk’s German trial, where a verdict could come as early as Thursday on more than 28,000 counts of accessory to murder on allegations he served as a death camp guard. He has pleaded not guilty.

    Demjanjuk doesn’t have any current legal proceedings under way in the U.S.

    However, the judge indicated Demjanjuk could revive his U.S. denaturalization case based on a 1985 FBI report recently uncovered by The Associated Press. The FBI report challenged the authenticity of a Nazi ID card used as evidence in the German trial.

    “It is the responsibility of the court to insure the integrity of court proceedings,” the judge’s order said. “There has already been one confirmed instance of fraud against the court in the first denaturalization trial.”

    In a 1993 review of the American denaturalization hearing that led to Demjanjuk’s extradition to Israel, a U.S. appeals panel concluded that the U.S. Justice Department’s Nazi-hunting unit engaged in “prosecutorial misconduct that seriously misled the court” by withholding evidence that might have helped Demjanjuk.

    Polster cited federal rules allowing cases to be reopened based on various reasons, including new evidence.

    Polster said his order appointing the public defender’s office to represent Demjanjuk wasn’t a finding or even speculation about the authenticity of the Nazi ID card.

    In any case, Polster said, “Should Demjanjuk be found guilty of a criminal offense in Germany, he will need to serve whatever sentence the court in Germany imposes.”

    Federal prosecutors had opposed the appointment of a public defender, saying there were no current legal proceedings in the U.S. involving Demjanjuk, he hadn’t asked for a public defender and he has an attorney who has agreed to defend him for free.

    The AP reported in April that the 1985 file indicated the FBI believed a Nazi ID card purportedly showing that Demjanjuk served as a death camp guard was a Soviet-made fake.

    His defense attorneys have repeatedly claimed that the card and other evidence against him are Soviet forgeries. The FBI report provides the first known confirmation that American investigators had similar doubts.

    In three decades of U.S. hearings, an extradition, a death sentence followed by acquittal in Israel, a deportation and the German trial, the arguments have relied heavily on the photo ID from an SS training camp that indicates Demjanjuk was sent to the Sobibor death camp in occupied Poland.

    The German court rejected a defense request to suspend the trial so that defense attorneys could travel to the U.S. to examine the new material.

    Polster said Demjanjuk’s German attorneys are aware of the 1985 document.


  • #109
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    For anyone not that interested in a 'presumption of guilt-scenario based offshoot' to the thread, there is an interesting reality-based thread on the Demjanjuk trials (specifically the kgb card) here :

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=177122

    Its not even a challenge arguing this one with you Morlar- Yet again you shoot your self in the foot. This is an extract from your link:
    He noted as particularly important the way the FBI said the KGB presented evidence to the U.S. Department of Justice: allowing the material to be viewed only at a Soviet embassy or consulate but not examined by document experts.

    "It's very explicit, and the same thing happened here," Busch said, noting he could view two Russian-held Nazi "transfer lists" from 1943 only at the Russian Consulate in Munich. The documents indicate a guard named Demjanjuk was sent to Flossenbuerg concentration camp and to Sobibor.

    "The Russians said we could look at them but that we couldn't do anything with them, couldn't examine them, and then they took them away," Busch said.

    So your 'reliable' FBI sources made there judgements without expert analysis? This really is codswallop of a particularly high calibre! and all to avoid a proper discussion on the subject, a totally abhorrent line of posting given the serious issues of justice involved.


  • #110
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    The fact that the soviets withheld physical examination of the ID document, and withheld the original alleged eyewitness (now deceased) does not re-inforce the view taken by you that it's therefore genuine.

    If anything, it would indicate that the KGB withheld it because they had something to hide.

    Your repeated attempt to downplay the FBI conclusion that the document is a forgery tends to show a reluctance on your part to discuss the most vital piece of 'evidence' that exsists in this case. To simultaneously claim that on your part this is in pursuit of the truth, and with resepect to the 'serious issues of justice involved' is disingenous and hypocritical of you to say the least.

    For a more balanced and informed view on this issue I would recommend the Axis history thread referenced in the post above :

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=177122


  • #111
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Would people here think that if it was proven he had played a willing and active part at Sobibor, i.e. shooting prisoners, etc (in the classical depiction of a cruel camp guard) that he should be punished?

    I'd have to say yes, but, adding to that, it would be more important to me, that if this precedent was set, then it should apply to all war criminals everywhere, not just nazi ones from ww2. Yes, I'm talking about Iraq, Gaza etc. To make such a fuss over things that happened 65 years ago, and conveniently ignore whats happening today, makes a joke out the whole concept.

    For example, surviving Mau Maus from Kenya are actually managing to put together a strong case over their brutal treatment in concentration camps set up by the British in the 50s. As well as financial compensation, I would like to see someone from the British Military, go through the ringer for this, like John Demjanjuk, but I doubt it will ever turn out that way.
    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Also (or perhaps linked to above) does the fact that he was wrongly charged previously have any bearing on his treatment now?

    That's a tough one. Strictly speaking, he was wrongfully accused. The case ate up 5 years of his life. Should he be compensated for that ?

    Relating to Demjanjuk, how do you appropriately punish someone of his age ?
    Hang him anyway ? House arrest ? I'm not a legal person, and don't have the training or qualifications to answer that. However, I've said already, I find the application of Ad-Hoc law in order to create a legal case, where one might not have existed in the statute books, in this instance, disturbing.


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  • #112
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    Demjanjuk is different to cases such as what happened in Iraq in the way those who are pursuing them yield an an incredible amount of power and easily influence governments.


  • #113
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    Demjanjuk is different to cases such as what happened in Iraq in the way those who are pursuing them yield an an incredible amount of power and easily influence governments.

    that's what it seems to boil down to :(


  • #114
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    This man has died
    John Demjanjuk, who was found guilty for his role as a guard at a Nazi death camp in World War II, has died aged 91, German police say.

    He had been sentenced in May 2011 by a German court to five years in prison, but was released pending an appeal.

    He died at a home for the elderly.

    The court said Demjanjuk, 91, was a guard at Sobibor camp in Nazi-occupied Poland in 1943. He denied this, saying he was a prisoner of war and a victim too. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17414127


  • #115
    Artur.PL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 274 ✭✭Artur.PL


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    This man has died
    and very good.
    I have to say it: happy days.


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