Israel's uncompromising stance on settlements draws global condemnation

K-9 · 01-05-2012 1:20am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Actually, that's rather simplistic. Sinn Fein used to position itself as a national liberation movement, and hence would try to align itself with such movements around the world, including the ANC and the PLO.
Once Loyalists started seeing Palestinian flags and murals appearing in Republican areas, they responded by flying Israeli flags. It was simple 'monkey see, monkey do.'
I attended school with the bulk of Belfast's small and ever-declining Jewish community, most of whom lived in Protestant middle class areas of the city. Despite that, however, they all reported significant anti-Semitism from within even that genteel community, which has been a factor in many of them departing for, primarily, London. Northern Ireland Friends for Israel is actually run from London nowadays.
Of course, historically, Jews in NI allied themselves with Unionism anyway. Otto Jaffa, an early Belfast UUP Lord Mayor, was the first Jewish Lord Mayor in the city. My own birth district, now largely Republican, was at one time the epicentre of Judaism in NI. There is still a star of David to mark the rabbi's house at the end of the street (built in the early 1900s), and Chaim Herzog was born down the main road a few hundred yards.
As late as the 80s, I believe, there was a UUP MP who was Jewish. I don't recall correctly but I think it may have been Harold McCusker? Anyhow, I remember a spat where Paisley in his demagoguery claimed the UUP could not be trusted because they harboured people who had not been saved by the blood of Christ. He could be some charmer.
Anyhow, as in many places, the NI Jewish community were (and the few remaining are) quite affluent. They did, as Jewish communities have done in many places at many times, cosy up to those in power and inculcate themselves into the power structure. But again, as in many places and many times, they faced anti-Judaist bigotry and prejudice, and the advent of the troubles, which caused population migration around the Antrim Road synagogue area, led to many of them leaving for good. There would only be a few families left there now, and any genuine connection between NI Unionism and Jews was sundered around the time of that Paisley speech, I suspect.

Unfortunately, you have to resort to history. Rather fortunate for me though!

Cavehill Red · 01-05-2012 1:33am

K-9 wrote: »

Unfortunately, you have to resort to history. Rather fortunate for me though!

I don't get your point at all. I was simply expanding on the rather simplistic point you had made. Since there is no significant linkage these days between NI and Palestine (beyond SF posturing on Derry council about Israeli boycotts), and since there is almost no Jewish community left in the province, the flag waving is simply like an away strip version of the green, white and gold or red, white and blue kerbstones. It's a proxy. It says nothing about the conflict in Palestine other than "We support whoever you don't."

The Israeli · 01-05-2012 1:46am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

It is ironic but not surprising to find that the poster most guilty of whataboutery on this thread has chosen to reproduce a series of terror porn pictures depicting only one type of victim, despite having had the audacity to berate others for their alleged bias.

Tell me, The Israeli, where in your collection are the pictures of civilian Palestinian dead?

Well, you can, but then you would have to explain the circumstances that led to their deaths. like:
1) Was it against the innocent civilians or terrorists in the area?
2) Was it a part of the Israeli agenda to kill civilians?
3) Did the terrorists put the victims in danger by fighting and hiding among them?

I can guarantee you that in most of the cases the answer is:
terrorists, no, yes. all together.
For number 2 you will get always "no".

On the other hand, for the terror organizations KILLING INNOCENTS is a POLICY and THE RIGHT WAY for achieving political goals.
And here, my friend lies the great difference.
If you don't agree, I want you to explain us all why terror attacks on innocents are moral.

Don't call me the poster most guilty of whatever..
It's pretty rude and unacceptable.
I side the Palestinians at occasions like in my first comment on this thread. You are the one that goes one way. Yes, the Palestinians are perfect. Your side is is always right.. whatever.

Athlone_Bhoy · 01-05-2012 1:59am

The Israeli wrote: »

On the other hand, for the terror organizations KILLING INNOCENTS is a POLICY and THE RIGHT WAY for achieving political goals.

Nonsense. If they wanted to kill innocent people there would be suicide attacks everyday, but there's not.

The Israeli · 01-05-2012 2:07am

Athlone_Bhoy wrote: »

Nonsense. If they wanted to kill innocent people there would be suicide attacks everyday, but there's not.

Yea I guess that they don't want..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDoV8ZL9Xkc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggKOjY_daiM

Or that Palestinian woman who tries to smuggle in a bomb which she carries on her waist with the meaning of exploding herself in an Israeli hospital (she had a permit for that and got treated in Israel! can you believe it).
To the soldiers in the check post she told she was pregnant and sick.
Who is she hurting.. Please tell me. Is it only the Israelis or her fellow Palestinian women, men, sick and healthy.
Some people here will never understand how crazy is the job of soldiers at check posts when any innocent looking woman might be your death ticket or of the Israeli citizens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eSbBaYh-S8

I guess that you have no idea about the 24/7 effort of the Israeli security forces to prevent terror.

Cavehill Red · 01-05-2012 2:11am

The Israeli wrote: »

Well, you can, but then you would have to explain the circumstances that led to their deaths.

Doesn't answer my question? Where are your death porn photos of dead Palestinians? Or do their deaths not matter to you?

The Israeli wrote: »

Don't call me the poster most guilty of whatever..
It's pretty rude and unacceptable.

Straw man arguments are rude and unacceptable. You stop committing them, I'll stop calling you on it.

The Israeli wrote: »

I side the Palestinians at occasions like in my first comment on this thread. You are the one that goes one way. Yes, the Palestinians are perfect. Your side is is always right.. whatever.

This is more straw man nonsense and name calling. If that's all you have by way of debate, I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself.

Cavehill Red · 01-05-2012 2:15am

The Israeli wrote: »

I guess that you have no idea about the 24/7 effort of the Israeli security forces to prevent terror.

In my experience and understanding, it involves a 24/7 effort of creating terror. Like when Mossad disgracefully abused my country's good name by travelling on forged Irish passports to murder people in a hotel in the Gulf. The Israeli response was to deny it, then once it was proven, to suggest that it was a necessary act to prevent terrorism.
This is Orwellian doublespeak. War is Peace, up is down, black is white, and terror prevents terror.

Cavehill Red · 01-05-2012 3:04am

The Israeli wrote: »

I'm sorry for your poor passports. I can assure you that they were used for a good cause like killing a man who planned and commanded in the past on deliberate killings of innocent civilians. It's for the good cause. Cheer up.

That's exactly the doublethink I was referring to.

Irish passports were abused by your country to commit a terrorist murder in a third party state, dragging my nation through the gutter of your nation's tawdry terrorism until Mossad's cowardice of hiding behind the good name of my country and others was proven.

Up is down, black is white, war is peace, cowardly murder and terrorism is a good cause to be cheerful about.

Such is the perversion of morality at work in Israel today.

cyberhog · 01-05-2012 3:39am

The Israeli wrote: »

For number 2 you will get always "no".

The UN investigation into the 22-day conflict from 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009 found that Israel deliberately targeted civilians.

The Goldstone Report concluded that “the Israeli armed forces repeatedly opened fire on civilians who were not taking part in the hostilities and who posed no threat to them,” and that “Israeli armed forces had carried out direct intentional strikes against civilians”

http://books.google.ie/books?id=RRxiILpsxtwC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=%22Israeli+armed+forces+had+carried+out+direct+intentional+strikes+against+civilians%22&source=bl&ots=SyUnGuq2eA&sig=eNzSEPSBvk1bdOFamwznS7-WpJI&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22Israeli%20armed%20forces%20had%20carried%20out%20direct%20intentional%20strikes%20against%20civilians%22&f=false

JustinDee · 01-05-2012 8:24am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Anyhow, as in many places, the NI Jewish community were (and the few remaining are) quite affluent. They did, as Jewish communities have done in many places at many times, cosy up to those in power and inculcate themselves into the power structure

Oh for eff's sake. You know, many just minded their own bloody business and got on with life and still do.
What sanctimonious one-eyed bullsh.

The Israeli · 01-05-2012 10:08am

cyberhog wrote: »

The UN investigation into the 22-day conflict from 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009 found that Israel deliberately targeted civilians.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=RRxiILpsxtwC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=%22Israeli+armed+forces+had+carried+out+direct+intentional+strikes+against+civilians%22&source=bl&ots=SyUnGuq2eA&sig=eNzSEPSBvk1bdOFamwznS7-WpJI&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22Israeli%20armed%20forces%20had%20carried%20out%20direct%20intentional%20strikes%20against%20civilians%22&f=false

Read the correction to Goldstone report by mr. Golston himself:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

wes · 01-05-2012 10:42am

The Israeli wrote: »

Read the correction to Goldstone report by mr. Golston himself:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

He wasn't the only author:
UN Gaza report co-authors round on Goldstone

Also, let not forget the campaign against Judge Goldstone by Zionists:
South African Judge May Be Kept From Grandson’s Bar Mitzvah

Let not pretend that the hate campaign had nothing to do with Judge Goldstones "change of heart".

Nodin · 01-05-2012 2:37pm

The Israeli wrote: »

.......................................
This article doesn’t talk about the Arabic tribes that came into Israel at various points in the 19th and 20th centuries. It also doesn’t say how many arabs have been brought here by the Ottoman empire to serve as workers. Also, there are counts that say (...............) to achieve their new ideological ambitions.
All of the above doesn’t degrade anyhow the Jewish claim to the 48th borders.

Much of the nonsense about late arrivals can be read here, its of Kahanist origin.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1986/jan/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/

The percentage of land privately held was included in this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0887282113/thehomeofalle-20
http://www.thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/Palestine/stolen-land.htm

Why is it every thread on the settlements features some attempt at derailment via either arguments over 1947/48 or the validity of the palestinian claim to nationality?

Nodin · 01-05-2012 2:42pm

The Israeli wrote: »

Or that Palestinian (.............) terror.

What has all that to do with settlement expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

The Israeli · 01-05-2012 3:24pm

Nodin wrote: »

What has all that to do with settlement expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

nothing. Actually 95% of this thread isn't related to the subject as it happens with every thread about Israel.

hatrickpatrick · 01-05-2012 3:30pm

boynesider wrote: »

Fair comments, and I get where you are all coming from.

Personally, its not that I'm completely apathetic towards it, its just that I can't see any reason to elevate the conflict above all of the other ones that are happening at the same time all over he world. This is something that the Western media I have been exposed to seems to do, and sometimes I think this is done at the expense of other injustices which are just as bad or worse.

However, I understand that its something which people care very deeply about, and regardless of whether it is right or wrong to be so focused on one thing, I still respect that.

It means a lot to me mainly because I absolutely can't stand governments who place their own personal gain ahead of the welfare of actual human beings.

For US politicians to give killing machiens to the Israelis because it'll get them a few donations from AIPAC is an absolute mind numbing disgrace. A human life is not worth less than X number or dollars, period.

The Israeli · 01-05-2012 3:34pm

Nodin wrote: »

Much of the nonsense about late arrivals can be read here, its of Kahanist origin.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1986/jan/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/

The percentage of land privately held was included in this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0887282113/thehomeofalle-20
http://www.thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/Palestine/stolen-land.htm

Why is it every thread on the settlements features some attempt at derailment via either arguments over 1947/48 or the validity of the palestinian claim to nationality?

I don't know how believable your second source is. you know why?
Pay attention to its url: http://www.thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/Palestine/stolen-land.htm

Excuse me, but Kahanism is illegal in Israel. Suggesting that I rely on Kahanist sources (which is nonsense. please read where my sources are from) and mentioning Kahanism for a several times when talking about my non Kahanistic ideas is as I would be calling your ideas Natzi ideas without any reason. Would you like that?
You don't believe in late arrival of major parts of the arab society in Israel as described by several historians? It's not my problem.

wes · 01-05-2012 4:05pm

The Israeli wrote: »

I don't know how believable your second source is. you know why?
Pay attention to its url: http://www.thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/Palestine/stolen-land.htm

The land was stolen. The link is just a statement of fact.

Many quotes from Zionist leaders clearly show that they intended to take the land:

A new exodus for the Middle East?

--SNIP--
As early as 1895, Theodor Herzl, the prophet and founder of Zionism, wrote in his diary in anticipation of the establishment of the Jewish state: "We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country ... The removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
--SNIP--

The above article was written by notorious Israeli historian Benny Morris, who sickeningly refers to ethnic cleansing as "transfer". From the get go Zionists wanted to kick out the Palestinians.

The Israeli wrote: »

You don't believe in late arrival of major parts of the arab society in Israel as described by several historians? It's not my problem.

Its a long disproven Zionist myth. Ottoman population records have shown clearly that Palestinians were the majority before the Zionist ethnic cleansing project began. Also, considering that Zionist increased there population via ther colonial project, its a bit rich of you to claim it was the Palestinians who were the ones who did that.

Either way the right or the wrong of the past, don't change the current illegal settlement expansion, and ongoing daily Israeli violence (something you ignore) to support there colonial project.

Nodin · 01-05-2012 4:07pm

The Israeli wrote: »

I don't know how believable your second source is. you know why?
...............

Its from the 1947 survey. If you want to question the 1947 survey, feel free. Don't, however, waste my time trying to poison the well.

And yes, its stolen land.

It would be better, however, if you perhaps made your position on whats happening as regards settlements now, clear.

The Israeli wrote: »

Excuse me, but Kahanism is illegal in Israel.

Yet I find you regurgitating the myths they are so fond of far too often, usually with little regard for the OP.....Odd, that.

The Israeli · 01-05-2012 4:27pm

If land purchases, the partition plan, the fact that the arab countries started the Israeli independence war, right after they had got a state on ALL of their owned lands, still bring you to see it as a stolen land then we have nothing to add to it, and we may end this discussion between us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

wes · 01-05-2012 4:47pm

The Israeli wrote: »

If land purchases,

The amount of land purchased was tiny...

The Israeli wrote: »

the partition plan, the fact that the arab countries started the Israeli independence war, right after they had got a state on ALL of their owned lands, still bring you to see it as a stolen land then we have nothing to add to it, and we may end this discussion between us.

The Arabs started the war? That pretty damn funny claim. You seem to forget the fact that Zionists clearly intended to ethnically cleanse Palestinains, as per Herzl himselfs own words.

BTW, Zionists grabbed land outside of the partition plan (which was a non-binding UN resolution as well) borders, so they never really accepted that plan themselves either.

Also, before a single Arab state attacked the Zionist forces, up to 400,000 Palestinians were already being ethnically cleansed, and the parition plan didn't allow for any ethnic cleansing either. Israeli historian Illan Pappe details this in his book "The Ethnic cleansing of Palestine"

So, the land was most certainly stolen, and the history clearly shows this. Zionists never accepted the partition plan, as evidenced by the ethnic cleansing, and the expansion outside of the partition plan borders.

Your version of history is nothing but long disproven Zionists myths, that you would have gotten away with, before the Internet, where knowledge on this topic is easy to look up.

Also, again this has nothing to do with the ongoing land theft and violence, that we see Israel engaging in on a daily basis in the here and now. It seem clear to me you are doing your best to distract from Israel current land theft, by recycling old long disproven Zionist myths.

Nodin · 01-05-2012 4:58pm

wes wrote: »

...........

Also, again this has nothing to do with the ongoing land theft and violence, that we see Israel engaging in on a daily basis in the here and now. It seem clear to me you are doing your best to distract from Israel current land theft, by recycling old long disproven Zionist myths.

Indeedy.

BlaasForRafa · 01-05-2012 5:20pm

wes wrote: »

The land was stolen. The link is just a statement of fact.

I DEMAND Kaliningrad be given back to the Prussians!

Cavehill Red · 01-05-2012 5:32pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Oh for eff's sake. You know, many just minded their own bloody business and got on with life and still do.
What sanctimonious one-eyed bullsh.

What do you know about it? I grew up among that community. They were politicians, high court judges, justices of the peace - heavily involved in the North's power structure. Others went into businesses like real estate and the legal profession.
And many felt legitimately quite badly treated by how Unionism rounded upon them, and left as the Troubles progressed.
I know of one judge whose family faced significant security risks because of his job - police security detail in the garden 24/7 and so on - who was basically told he'd never be promoted further because of his religion. He's in Israel now, and his kids are in London.

wes · 01-05-2012 5:34pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I DEMAND Kaliningrad be given back to the Prussians!

Interesting, as Zionism is basically making a similar claims, albeit, the time line is in the 1000s of years range.

The claim on Palestine in the first place, was based on stuff in the Bible, and current claim for settlements in the occupied territories is exactly the same. This fact make you flippant remark rather silly, as you are surely aware that Israel is making a 2000 year old claim. You really do need to try a little harder Blass, as you make this all to easy.

Anyway, 2000 year old claims were absurd back then and are absurd now as well (still the justifcation for Israel settlement project).

Cavehill Red · 01-05-2012 5:35pm

The Israeli wrote: »

Excuse me, but Kahanism is illegal in Israel. Suggesting that I rely on Kahanist sources (which is nonsense. please read where my sources are from) and mentioning Kahanism for a several times when talking about my non Kahanistic ideas is as I would be calling your ideas Natzi ideas without any reason. Would you like that?

Congrats on Godwining the thread. Also, go for it. You've been misrepresenting the views of others consistently.

K-9 · 01-05-2012 6:15pm

Can we please get back to the thread topic.

hatrickpatrick · 01-05-2012 7:52pm

The Israeli wrote: »

If land purchases, the partition plan, the fact that the arab countries started the Israeli independence war, right after they had got a state on ALL of their owned lands, still bring you to see it as a stolen land then we have nothing to add to it, and we may end this discussion between us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

Can we separate 1948 and 1967, please?
The pre 1967 border may or may not have been legitimate, the current post-1967 border is most certainly not legitimate. No "land purchase" was involved, it was theft at gunpoint, pure and simple. It continues to this day, even in East Jerusalem - or have the constant stories of families homes being BULLDOZED by the ISraeli authorities escaped your notice, somehow?

The Israeli · 01-05-2012 8:50pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Can we separate 1948 and 1967, please?
The pre 1967 border may or may not have been legitimate, the current post-1967 border is most certainly not legitimate. No "land purchase" was involved, it was theft at gunpoint, pure and simple. It continues to this day, even in East Jerusalem - or have the constant stories of families homes being BULLDOZED by the ISraeli authorities escaped your notice, somehow?

Nope, nothing has escaped. I am all for the 67th (almost) solution, and I tell about it all the time.
I can't guarantee about all cases but I don't know about major cases during which people where forced out of their homes at gun point during the 67th war. You can see how many Arabs (Palestinians) live in the West bank including western Jerusalem, the druz in the Golan heights and all.
I guess that during the war it could have happened. Probably in Eastern Jerusalem.
About houses being bulldozed today - only illegal ones. Only! (and not very often)
I have had the argue here before and I have agreed that Palestinian houses get demolished more often than Jewish. (and they get demolished too.. I watch TV).
Also, because of the neglectance of the Arabs neighborhoods they don't get enough building permits and are forced to build illegally.
In that you can blame the city authorities, and the refusal of the Arab citizens there to cooperate with the authorities.

I will say it again for you: I'm for the 2 state solution in which the Palestinian state will be in Gaza and the West Bank (with some territory swaps when the areas are too large).

Nodin · 01-05-2012 11:12pm

The Israeli wrote: »

......
I will say it again for you: I'm for the 2 state solution in which the Palestinian state will be in Gaza and the West Bank (with some territory swaps when the areas are too large).

...yet rather unfortunately your posts contain far too much apologia for the Occupation regime and its actions.

The Israeli · 01-05-2012 11:48pm

Nodin wrote: »

...yet rather unfortunately your posts contain far too much apologia for the Occupation regime and its actions.

Well, If something is right I defend it, and if something is not right, I have no problem in admitting it. While there are some people over here, whose posts contain too little until non existent apologia towards a regime/s who covers up and supports cold blooded murderers in the name of Allah and their extreme ideology.

btw, have you noticed in one of the videos I posted that these speeches about killing Jews were during an organized public event which was possibly supported by the Fatah because Fatah was mentioned and the flags of PA were there?
This is extremely severe, and Fatah is our best peace partner..

Nodin, despite of what you think, I think that you aren't balanced and you support the Palestinian cause no matter what, but there are some people here that go further.
Before you critisice me for not being fair, you should check yourself first - how often do you admit in your side's faults - and damn, there are very many.
Nevertheless, your solution to the problem and mine aren't very different and are mainly different by their timing.
At least that.

Eggy Baby! · 01-05-2012 11:55pm

Silly me, having read the holiday brochures and heard the PR about this shining beacon of democracy and pluraility in the Middle East, I was expecting something other than a petrified and paranoid sectarian apartheid state with Uzis on display every ten yards.

Well put.

golden lane · 01-05-2012 11:57pm

The Israeli wrote: »

Well, If something is right I defend it, and if something is not right, I have no problem in admitting it. While there are some people over here, whose posts contain too little until non existent apologia towards a regime/s who covers up and supports cold blooded murderers in the name of Allah and their extreme ideology.

btw, have you noticed in one of the videos I posted that these speeches about killing Jews were during an organized public event which was possibly supported by the Fatah because Fatah was mentioned and the flags of PA were there?
This is extremely severe, and Fatah is our best peace partner..

Nodin, despite of what you think, I think that you aren't balanced and you support the Palestinian cause no matter what, but there are some people here that go further.
Before you critisice me for not being fair, you should check yourself first - how often do you admit in your side's faults - and damn, there are very many.
Nevertheless, your solution to the problem and mine aren't very different and are mainly different by their timing.
At least that.

israel would be very wise to come to a solution, whilst it is still being propped up by the usa............

i don't know when the balance of the world will change......but when it does (and the usa will have given up supporting israel long before then)....the new powers in the east, and the north......will not have any sympathy for israels ridiculous claims..........

The Israeli · 02-05-2012 12:07am

golden lane wrote: »

israel would be very wise to come to a solution, whilst it is still being propped up by the usa............

i don't know when the balance of the world will change......but when it does (and the usa will have given up supporting israel long before then)....the new powers in the east, and the north......will not have any sympathy for israels ridiculous claims..........

You are not the first pessimist and not the last + Israel has been through very grave times in the past even without the American support and still prevailed.
Thanks for the advise.

golden lane · 02-05-2012 12:20am

The Israeli wrote: »

You are not the first pessimist and not the last + Israel has been through very grave times in the past even without the American support and still prevailed.
Thanks for the advise.

i admire your confidence......but, israel has never been alone.........not since the state came into being.......

you have lost most of the west...by going a step too far.........

during the six day war.....headlines in the irish papers were on your side..so were the irish people....not now though, and that applies all around the world........

K-9 · 02-05-2012 12:25am

Just a reminder that this thread isn't about Ireland. Thread has meandered a bit but it is time to post on topic, or else we end up with same old debate.

Please post on the current affairs issue raised in the OP.

The Israeli · 02-05-2012 12:54am

golden lane wrote: »

i admire your confidence......but, israel has never been alone.........not since the state came into being.......

you have lost most of the west...by going a step too far.........

during the six day war.....headlines in the irish papers were on your side..so were the irish people....not now though, and that applies all around the world........

Well, besides usa we have a good friendship with Germany, France, Italy and Greece. Also, some correct relations with others. That's about how things are with Europe.

My opinion as a citizen of this country, and a person who is trying to remain open to ideas but also be down to earth I don't see too many options for achieving a stable peace with the Palestinians in the near or even maybe mid future.
Yes, Israel shouldn't do anymore expansions in the west bank and maybe negotiate more with the Palestinians because it can't really hurt, but that's about it.
I can't see peace while there are too many people in PA and in Gaza who are in high positions there allow incitement speeches, encourage them and allow teaching hatred in children's education system. When Hamas speaks openly about the elimination of Israel, and when Abu Mazen receives mass murderers released from the Israeli jail as heroes and with kisses, when a year of a relative peace with Gaza seems like heaven, and when a wall and dozens of security check points and constant soldiers security are what preventing murders within Israel.

Without a real change I don't want a fast and shaky peace process which might bring again hundreds of missiles and suicide bombers like it has brought many times in the past.

I support developing cooperation between Israel and PA in economy projects, tourism and security. I support low fire negotiations. Basically, I believe in making their life better step by step, increasing trust between nations for when the right time comes, and official peace will be a natural next step, and not a miserable peace on paper, and war with the terror organizations in reality.

Ah, and before someone comes and says: Get the feck back to 67th borders and there will be peace - to them I say - there wasn't peace before 67. There is a fanatic hatred towards Israel by terrorist that has only to do with religion and the mission of a Palestinian state from the Jordan to the sea. Taking a "chance" in breaking and dividing the Israeli people amongst themselves, weakening the country's borders, and then waiting to see if the Palestinian terror organizations would be content with the Israeli new borders, is a huge risk that only lunatics in the Israeli society would take. As for the "modern and the liberal" people around the world who support the Palestinians without blinking - they don't care.. It's not their country nor their risk. Many of them would even be glad seeing Israel disappear.

BlaasForRafa · 02-05-2012 1:23am

wes wrote: »

Interesting, as Zionism is basically making a similar claims, albeit, the time line is in the 1000s of years range.

The claim on Palestine in the first place, was based on stuff in the Bible, and current claim for settlements in the occupied territories is exactly the same. This fact make you flippant remark rather silly, as you are surely aware that Israel is making a 2000 year old claim. You really do need to try a little harder Blass, as you make this all to easy.

Anyway, 2000 year old claims were absurd back then and are absurd now as well (still the justifcation for Israel settlement project).

My remark is no more absurd than just about everything you've said on this thread. This thread is about the SETTLEMENTS, its not about the right of return or any other palestinian whinge.

Its typical of the anti-Israeli side that they use any excuse to bring in every single complaint they can think of despite the fact that its not on-topic. I am vehemently anti-settler but the dragging in of every little thing just makes me switch off. If the palestinians get the moderates to switch off like that then its no wonder than they have to deal with tossers like Netanyahu. The palestinian side will never get anywhere if looking for too much and return of lands outside of the West Bank and Gaza is simply not on.

Cavehill Red · 02-05-2012 1:27am

golden lane wrote: »

israel would be very wise to come to a solution, whilst it is still being propped up by the usa............

i don't know when the balance of the world will change......but when it does (and the usa will have given up supporting israel long before then)....the new powers in the east, and the north......will not have any sympathy for israels ridiculous claims..........

Which is why it is extremely concerning that Israel has nukes. They top the list (closely followed by the utterly unstable Pakistan) as the nuclear power most likely to press the button.
Without an accommodation with the indigenous Palestinians, Israel would be quite screwed in the event of America's foreign policy looking inward, or its military hegemony collapsing, or its policies towards the Middle East changing (ranked in order of likelihood.)
It wouldn't surprise me if they decided to reduce Tehran to radioactive rubble in that event.

JustinDee · 02-05-2012 9:04am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

What do you know about it?

A lot more than you may presume.
You're attempting to devalue a viewpoint contrary to your own by saying "You weren't there, man" yet spit cottons with a blinkered line about a region you've never lived in yourself?
Classy.
Nice.
Big bowl of wrong.

Cavehill Red · 02-05-2012 9:09am

JustinDee wrote: »

A lot more than you may presume.

Great. You'll have no problem correcting what you perceive to be the errors in what I wrote then.

JustinDee wrote: »

You're attempting to devalue a viewpoint contrary to your own by saying "You weren't there, man" yet spit cottons with a blinkered line about a region you've never lived in yourself?

Who said I never lived there?

JustinDee · 02-05-2012 9:29am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Great. You'll have no problem correcting what you perceive to be the errors in what I wrote then

Don't be surprised if people take exception to your grossly generalistic presumption that the big bad Jews get places by cosying up to whatever circles necessary.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Who said I never lived there?

By your posts, I would have thought that this was plainly obvious.
Going over on some organised trip is a little different to the experience of actually living there.

Cavehill Red · 02-05-2012 9:39am

JustinDee wrote: »

Don't be surprised if people take exception to your grossly generalistic presumption that the big bad Jews get places by cosying up to whatever circles necessary.

Still waiting for you to correct anything I got wrong.

JustinDee wrote: »

By your posts, I would have thought that this was plainly obvious.
Going over on some organised trip is a little different to the experience of actually living there.

I lived there in 06, on Allenby Street in Tel Aviv. When I had to visit Jerusalem, I usually stayed in a Palestinian hotel between the East Jerusalem bus station and Damascus Gate.

JustinDee · 02-05-2012 10:07am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Still waiting for you to correct anything I got wrong

I already bloody well told you that you were generalising on an entire demograph. Not all Irish in the States or Australia were involved with the police or fire brigade. Not all Indians and Pakistanis in Ireland are involved with the rag trade.
See? Your generalism is utter shash.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I lived there in 06, on Allenby Street in Tel Aviv. When I had to visit Jerusalem, I usually stayed in a Palestinian hotel between the East Jerusalem bus station and Damascus Gate.

You stayed on Allenby? Great. Who hasn't been there? Half of Intel visits Tel ffs.
Wonderful thing the interweb . . .

Cavehill Red · 02-05-2012 10:11am

JustinDee wrote: »

I already bloody well told you that you were generalising on an entire demograph. Not all Irish in the States or Australia were involved with the police or fire brigade. Not all Indians and Pakistanis in Ireland are involved with the rag trade.
See? Your generalism is utter shash.

And some of Belfast's Jewish community ran shops, or went into real estate or the legal profession, as I clearly stated. But a disproportionate number were involved directly in NI's power structure. It's a very small community. It's impossible to generalise about such a small demographic.

JustinDee wrote: »

You stayed on Allenby? Great. Who hasn't been there? Half of Intel visits Tel ffs.
Wonderful thing the interweb . . .

I'd imagine most of the planet hasn't been there, least of all lived there. Have you?

golden lane · 02-05-2012 10:17am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Which is why it is extremely concerning that Israel has nukes. They top the list (closely followed by the utterly unstable Pakistan) as the nuclear power most likely to press the button.
Without an accommodation with the indigenous Palestinians, Israel would be quite screwed in the event of America's foreign policy looking inward, or its military hegemony collapsing, or its policies towards the Middle East changing (ranked in order of likelihood.)
It wouldn't surprise me if they decided to reduce Tehran to radioactive rubble in that event.

i can understand from an israeli point of view..........but the world is rapidly changing.....and they must think long term.......

JustinDee · 02-05-2012 10:26am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

It's impossible to generalise about such a small demographic

No, it most certainly is not.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'd imagine most of the planet hasn't been there, least of all lived there. Have you?

Allenby is one of the busiest areas in the city. Think Grafton St, Frognerveien, Rue de Charles de Gaulle. Same kind of area. Any old anonymous duffer can pick it from a map.
Yes. Five years.

Cavehill Red · 02-05-2012 10:32am

JustinDee wrote: »

No, it most certainly is not.

Er, yes it is. We're talking not much more than a handful of families at this point.

JustinDee wrote: »

Allenby is one of the busiest areas in the city. Think Grafton St, Frognerveien, Rue de Charles de Gaulle. Same kind of area. Any old anonymous duffer can pick it from a map.
Yes. Five years.

I have no idea what Froggervein is.
You have my commiserations on spending five years in Tel Aviv. A more paranoid, unfriendly place I have yet to be, with the exception of a Northern Jerusalem suburb I once got a bus to by mistake and quickly removed myself from.
Now, you tell me. Where should someone on a short-term work contract stay when living abroad? Where would someone working in such circumstances in Ireland stay? Leitrim, perhaps? Clonee? Or near to where they were working?

K-9 · 02-05-2012 10:47am

I think there is a travel forum on the site if posters want to share traveling advice.

At this stage it is clear posters don't want to discuss the OP, just discuss the same old stuff over and over. Thread closed.

Israel's uncompromising stance on settlements draws global condemnation

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