A discussion on the rules.

P. Breathnach · 28-05-2009 12:00pm

Nodin wrote: »

... However "Today Brian Cowan unveiled (yadda da yadda) - this will cause absolute chassis because (etc etc)" Is this man a total gobshite" would strike me as fair comment.

I wouldn't suggest that anybody should be in trouble for posting something like that, but I think it would lead to a better quality of discussion if people exercised a little more restraint. When language becomes intemperate, and when people (rather than their actions) are attacked, the issues become obscured.

Very few people are so overwhelmingly bad that nothing good can be said about them, and very few people are so consistently good that nothing bad can be said about them.

Nodin · 28-05-2009 2:37pm

...all things in moderation, so to speak.

Rebelheart · 06-06-2009 11:29am

turgon wrote: »

Considering that only a small minority speak Irish well enough to converse in it, and that those who do speak Irish can also speak English, I think the use of Irish should be banned with the exception of Irish phrasing.

The only reason otherwise to use Irish is to intentionally make your self misunderstood which is bad form. I think there is no merit in using it, but ye might disagree.

Then again, just the way English speakers feel a sense of relief when speaking in their language, Irish speakers feel a similar sense when they express themselves in their language. Are Irish speakers to be denied their freedom on what is supposed to be a discussion forum on Irish politics?

As per the above logic, I think the use of big English words should be banned because they are intentionally designed to be esoteric and I think there is no merit in people not speaking in simple plain English. What are they hiding? Are they trying to insult us? They all can speak in plain English - every one of them. It's bad form indeed.

turgon · 06-06-2009 3:18pm

You give me an example of one boardsie who cant speak English, and then maybe I will consider your point.

P. Breathnach · 06-06-2009 3:35pm

turgon wrote: »

You give me an example of one boardsie who cant speak English, and then maybe I will consider your point.

There are quite a few who seem to have difficulties in writing it.

Rebelheart · 07-06-2009 2:34am

turgon wrote: »

You give me an example of one boardsie who cant speak English, and then maybe I will consider your point.

That's a non sequitur. The natural conclusion to your logic is as above. You are trying to institutionalise your own prejudices. There are plenty of posters who contribute here using language which is not simple, straightforward English. What are they trying to hide? Why can't they speak plainly? "Bad form" indeed.

I shouldn't have to look up a dictionary to understand these people. Everybody should communicate in a way that satisfies my own intellectual limitations. How dare they try to humiliate me on Boards.ie. How dare they.

And, yes, how dare anybody try to imply that Irish speakers have just as much right on Boards.ie as me. This pernicious development must be stopped or Boards.ie will be destroyed. We must resist these people.

Dinner · 07-06-2009 3:00am

Rebelheart wrote: »

There are plenty of posters who contribute here using language which is not simple, straightforward English. What are they trying to hide? Why can't they speak plainly? "Bad form" indeed.

I shouldn't have to look up a dictionary to understand these people. Everybody should communicate in a way that satisfies my own intellectual limitations. How dare they try to humiliate me on Boards.ie. How dare they.

For anyone to look up an individual English word is very straight forward. There are any number of plug-ins for firefox to help with that.

But for me to try and translate a whole Irish sentence, let alone an entire in-depth and complicated post on politics, I would need an Irish-English dictionary or try to find a decent online translator. Either way, chances are the grammar is going to be all over the place, which would involve a lot of decoding to try and put a bit of context to the post.

For discussions in Irish then either the Gaeilge or Teach na nGealt forum would suit your needs.

turgon · 07-06-2009 12:56pm

Rebelheart wrote: »

That's a non sequitur. The natural conclusion to your logic is as above. You are trying to institutionalise your own prejudices. There are plenty of posters who contribute here using language which is not simple, straightforward English. What are they trying to hide? Why can't they speak plainly? "Bad form" indeed.

They are trying to hide nothing. The fact remains rebelheart that very often it is easier to communicate in "high-brow" English than it is to communicate in "low-brow" English. This might be especially true on the political theory forum, where such terms as the "means of production," and the "dictatorship of the proletariat" can simply not be avoided.

Finding out the true meaning of an English sentence is quite easy: input the sentence into Google and ate the right had side you will see each word with a link. Click this to get a definition.

Internet translations are not nearly as accurate. But you seem to insist we be allow speak in Irish, despite the fact most dont speak it.

So would it also be ok to speak in Deustch? Or I am I right in guessing that your determination to speak as Gaelige is solely from a nationalistic disposition? In meinir Meinong, das ist nicht so gut. Verstein sie?

And before you hit the German translator, I have intentionally misspelt those words to highlight the falacy that online translators are readily used.

P. Breathnach · 07-06-2009 1:16pm

I don't know if it is worth getting het up about this question. The language dominantly used here is English, and I see no likelihood of that changing. If somebody chooses to post wholly or partly in Irish, or German, or Polish, or Mandarin, then it must be done with the acceptance that it will not be understood by everybody participating in the forum.

If somebody does it enough to be a major irritant, then the moderators can, well, moderate.

[Even though I think I don't know German, I understood turgon's post. My German is so limited that the misspellings are not an obstacle.]

oscarBravo · 07-06-2009 7:10pm

The fundamental problem with people posting in a language that one or more of the moderators don't understand is that it limits the ability of the moderators to manage the forum.

The wider problem with posting in a language that a substantial percentage of posters don't understand is that it excludes them from the discussion.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 4:46am

well its nice to know there has been bias here since at least 2007

so - less bias please?

as to language - can one post in irish if they provide a translation if one or more ask for it?

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 9:58am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well its nice to know there has been bias here since at least 2007

so - less bias please?

I've made it clear to you on several occasions that if you have a complaint about a moderator, or indeed about all the moderators (it's not clear who you're complaining about here) that you should take it to the Help Desk. So far, you've failed to do so.

as to language - can one post in irish if they provide a translation if one or more ask for it?

No. There are Irish-language forums on this website; this isn't one of them. Posting in a language that other posters don't understand doesn't facilitate discussion, and this is a discussion forum.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 11:01am

well i didnt mention anyone - but i think they would know who

again - do you intentionaly misread posts and/or ignore parts of them?

translation - see above

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 11:11am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well i didnt mention anyone - but i think they would know who

again - do you intentionaly misread posts and/or ignore parts of them?

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the rules of the forum. If you have a problem with the moderation of the forum, you can start a Help Desk thread.

translation - see above

To expand on my previous point: this is a discussion forum, and anything that inhibits discussion is unwelcome. If a post requires translation before it can be discussed, that inhibits discussion.

Sure, it's an Irish forum, but there is much discussion of international topics. Should I allow discussion of ישראל or فلسطين in their native languages, as long as someone is willing to offer a translation? Personally, I don't think so.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 11:34am

is ישראל or فلسطين a native language to ireland?

if the post has a translation it doesnt inhibit discussion

like how i translated my posts in the other thread - when you stated you didnt like it.

i also translated others - altho you were the only one against it (?)

would that in future be acceptable to you?

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 11:48am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

is ישראל or فلسطين a native language to ireland?

No, and not everyone who reads and posts here is native to Ireland. Further, many people who are native to Ireland do not understand the Irish language.

if the post has a translation it doesnt inhibit discussion

If a post has to be translated, it inhibits discussion.

There are two possible scenarios arising from your translation proposal: either everything posted in Irish has to be translated into English, which defeats the purpose of posting in Irish in the first place; or some Irish posts don't get translated, in which case those who don't understand Irish are excluded from the conversation, and discussion is inhibited.

The more straightforward approach is to require that people simply post in English. This doesn't in any way inhibit discussion.

like how i translated my posts in the other thread - when you stated you didnt like it.

i also translated others - altho you were the only one against it (?)

would that in future be acceptable to you?

No, and I think I've made it abundantly clear why not.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 11:51am

many dont understand english - if they arent irish or from an english speaking country

if i want to post in irish and english - will the post be deleted, edited or left alone?

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 11:55am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

many dont understand english - if they arent irish or from an english speaking country

People who don't understand English are unlikely in the extreme to be using this website.

if i want to post in irish and english - will the post be deleted, edited or left alone?

I'd rather you just posted in English.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 12:00pm

oh i have a fair idea of what you would rather.

i asked whether you would delete, edit or leave the post alone

P. Breathnach · 02-07-2009 12:09pm

OB, I think you are being a little too rigid on this.

I make a distinction between rules and laws. A rule is generally applicable, and a law is always applicable. I suggest that posting in English be treated as a rule, and that using words, phrases, or even whole sentences in other languages be tolerated in appropriate contexts (like threads discussing the use of Irish) so long as the poster uses English as the main vehicle for communication.

As to any concerns about moderating, we have the facility to report posts. If somebody posted something inappropriate in Irish, there are a number of people around who could report it and explain what the problem was.

[On the point of inhibiting discussion, I observe that there are posts here in what appears to be English, but which I find incomprehensible.]

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 12:13pm

exactly no one is going to go into a thread about the eu commission and be like

''is maith liom é......srl......srl.....srl...''
''i like it......etc.........etc.........etc....''

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 12:33pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

OB, I think you are being a little too rigid on this.

I make a distinction between rules and laws. A rule is generally applicable, and a law is always applicable. I suggest that posting in English be treated as a rule, and that using words, phrases, or even whole sentences in other languages be tolerated in appropriate contexts (like threads discussing the use of Irish) so long as the poster uses English as the main vehicle for communication.

I generally let those slide - they are potentially exclusionary, while not necessarily being too disruptive.

I will note that this discussion arose from a comment I made on a recent thread, which included some posts entirely in Irish. Such posts tend to prompt side conversations in Irish, which go against the grain of the forum.

For the avoidance of doubt, I have no trouble reading and understanding posts in Irish.

As to any concerns about moderating, we have the facility to report posts. If somebody posted something inappropriate in Irish, there are a number of people around who could report it and explain what the problem was.

True, but it's only part of the issue. This forum has at least one moderator who isn't Irish and doesn't understand any Irish at all. Posting in Irish restricts the ability of the moderator team to work effectively.

[On the point of inhibiting discussion, I observe that there are posts here in what appears to be English, but which I find incomprehensible.]

You and me both.

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 12:34pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i asked whether you would delete, edit or leave the post alone

P. Breathnach wrote: »

OB, I think you are being a little too rigid on this.

Just to add: I'm not being rigid on this. conchubhar1 is trying to nail me down to a rigid position, which I'm consciously avoiding.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 12:55pm

i am asking in general if it is an irish related topic - could i post in irish and english without it being deleted or edited?

yes or no? so i know whether to bother

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 1:09pm

I've answered the question as specifically as I'm going to.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 1:11pm

so you wont give me an answer. i will therefore continue as if and continue to post as the thread dicatates

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 1:21pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

so you wont give me an answer.

I've given you an answer.

To illustrate my point: the charter forbids insulting other posters. It doesn't contain a list of words and phrases that are considered insulting - that's a judgement call on the part of the moderators.

Equally, I've explained why posting in Irish can be a problem, and I'll continue to make judgement calls as I see fit.

i will therefore continue as if and continue to post as the thread dicatates

I have no idea what that sentence means.

turgon · 02-07-2009 1:29pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

could i post in irish and english without it being deleted or edited?

What would be the point?

Also, who says people will offer a correct translation? You might say in English "good point" while your Irish is calling me a gob****e. I am not fluent in Irish and would not understand.

I dont see what peoples issue with Boards being an English language website is. Its is .ie, but we all know that 99.999999% of Irish people speak English whereas a minority speak Irish. So the logic is to have it in English.

So why would you want to post in Irish, other than to intentionally mislead the non-Irish speaking majority?

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 1:42pm

i would not intentionally or otherwise mislead anyone.

as to what the point would be - i think that is obvious.

oB - it means that if another thread comes up and i feel irish would be understood and wanted in that particular thread
i will post in that thread bilingualy - as you have not given me an answer

turgon · 02-07-2009 1:48pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

as to what the point would be - i think that is obvious.

Not to me?

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 1:51pm

becuase irish is the language i use - and want to use (as do others - hence i wouldnt be chatting to meself)

turgon · 02-07-2009 2:07pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

becuase irish is the language i use - and want to use (as do others - hence i wouldnt be chatting to meself)

By that standard can I invite my polish neighbours to all set up Boards accounts and talk about Politics in Polish?

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 2:10pm

is this boards.pl?
is polish the national language of ireland?
dont be silly?

P. Breathnach · 02-07-2009 2:11pm

turgon wrote: »

... So why would you want to post in Irish, other than to intentionally mislead the non-Irish speaking majority?

I have posted in Irish, and had no intention of misleading anybody (something that is not always true of some who post in English).

I did it to affirm the validity of the language as a means of communication and I did it in a discussion on the use of Irish. And I also did it to rattle the bars of conchubhar's cage.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 2:12pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And I also did it to rattle the bars of conchubhar's cage.

:):) what?

rattle my cage - i liked the fact you used irish, gave me an excuse to use it

without getting banned!

turgon · 02-07-2009 2:19pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

is this boards.pl?
is polish the national language of ireland?
dont be silly?

So your being an idealist. Im being a pragmatist.

P. Breathnach · 02-07-2009 2:30pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

... i liked the fact you used irish, gave me an excuse to use it

without getting banned!

A chonchubhair, a chara,

You were naughty to use Irish. Don't try to transfer the blame to me. ["But, but, but, Sir -- he started it."]

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 2:35pm

not transfering blame - its just if i started using it it would almost definitely have resulted in a ban.....

a breithneicha (oh is that how it is spelt?)

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 2:36pm

turgon wrote: »

So your being an idealist. Im being a pragmatist.

indeed

turgon · 02-07-2009 2:54pm

Care to expand upon what your meaning of "pr" is?

I put it into the acronym finder and got 163 results so Im slightly puzzled.

conchubhar1 · 02-07-2009 3:01pm

it means your just being silly - this is ireland.

drag any other language in you want - you are still being silly if you do tho.

oscarBravo · 02-07-2009 3:10pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

oB - it means that if another thread comes up and i feel irish would be understood and wanted in that particular thread
i will post in that thread bilingualy - as you have not given me an answer

I'd rather you didn't. If you want to discuss political topics in Irish, there are at least two forums on this site where it is appropriate for you to do so. If the topic of a thread is the Irish language, it's entirely likely that one of those forums is an appropriate venue for it anyway.

If you post bi-lingually, you'll be inviting others to reply in Irish, which they will, which goes against the grain of the rule I'm espousing here.

You're trying to push me into a hard-and-fast rule on whether or not posting in Irish will be tolerated at all. I don't want to be pushed into that. I think I've made my position sufficiently clear.

turgon · 02-07-2009 3:13pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

it means your just being silly - this is ireland.

And you have just proved what I was on about.

For all I know you called me a prick, and your "translation" was inaccurate. However I presumed it accurate.

Permabear · 02-07-2009 3:15pm

This post has been deleted.

nesf · 02-07-2009 3:24pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well its nice to know there has been bias here since at least 2007

so - less bias please?
as to language - can one post in irish if they provide a translation if one or more ask for it?

Conchubhar1, if you continue to complain about the moderation on this forum in this forum I will ban you. Please take it to the Help Desk where said complaints are meant to go.

Regarding Irish, the average person in this country cannot read it at a level that's conducive to political debate. I'm raising my son through Irish and am married to a native speaker of the language so believe me when I say I've no bias against the language, however; posts in this forum should be through English so that a) everyone can understand them and b) all the moderators (including one non-Irish moderator) can read them and understand them fully. Posting in Irish here is not allowed, please do so in Teach na nGealt which is a forum dedicated to discussion of topics through the medium of Irish.

turgon · 02-07-2009 4:26pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think Ill give him the benefit of the doubt.

Dostoevsky · 03-07-2009 7:42pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

This forum has at least one moderator who isn't Irish and doesn't understand any Irish at all.

I get the distinct impression that the individual concerned is being used as the scapegoat for the prejudices of somebody else. I know of nobody who has arrived in Ireland and expects the Irish to stop speaking/writing in Irish just to facilitate their arrival.

Dostoevsky · 03-07-2009 7:54pm

nesf wrote: »

Conchubhar1, if you continue to complain about the moderation on this forum in this forum I will ban you. Please take it to the Help Desk where said complaints are meant to go.

Regarding Irish, the average person in this country cannot read it at a level that's conducive to political debate.

The "average person in this country" doesn't go near boards.ie. Should we therefore outlaw boards.ie?

"Posting in Irish is not allowed". What year is this: 1537? 1366? How dare you issue a diktat to an Irish person to not speak Irish in Ireland on a board which claims to be Irish. Ridiculously patronising.

Dostoevsky · 03-07-2009 8:01pm

turgon wrote: »

By that standard can I invite my polish neighbours to all set up Boards accounts and talk about Politics in Polish?

Is this Poland? Again, stop using some poor foreigners as the scapegoats for your own prejudices. Foreigners in Ireland, having mastered at least two languages, are usually more open to Irish language and culture than the average English-speaking monoglot in Ireland.

Sand · 03-07-2009 9:53pm

Ο σκοπός boards.ie είναι να συζητήσει και να επικοινωνήσει. Η ταχυδρόμηση σε μια γλώσσα που κανένας δεν μπορεί να καταλάβει είναι στην καλύτερη περίπτωση άχρηστη και στη χειρότερη περίπτωση σκόπιμα αποδιοργανωτικός εκείνου του στόχου.

Think that should explain why posting in Irish (or any other language other than the vernacular) is not helpful.

But yeah, fight the power!

A discussion on the rules.

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