Smaller Kerosene Tanks

pillphil · 24-01-2012 5:51pm #1

Would it be possible to replace a kerosene tank with a significantly smaller tank that was filled weekly?
I'm unemployed and have trouble getting the money together for a large delivery of heating oil. And the emergency drums are useless because the oil tank is so big that 5 gallons gets lost in it. Meaning you have to prop the tank up at one end. However if it was in a 50l tank,it would be half full.
Is there any reason it's not done like this? What size of a tank would be needed for a week? What could be used as a tank since the smallest one I can find for sale is 300l? Fuel tank from a car maybe?

Cheers,

shedweller · 24-01-2012 6:04pm

Was in that situation once or twice OP. i just hung on till enough money was gathered to fill or half fill the tank. Then i set aside 30 euro or thereabouts every week for the next fill. Keeping the hands off the stash in the meantime was hard though! Good luck!

pillphil · 24-01-2012 8:58pm

Would something like this not make more sense?

http://www.tanks-direct.co.uk/cone_tanks

mcgregor · 06-08-2013 3:04pm

hi pillphill,

ditch your big tank as u will be putting your pump under pressure keep drawing air,
get a waterbutt tank from argos for 40 euro,use the old tank connections at base of water butt
then keep it half full i call this my pay as you go oil tank,so u can simply top up by 10 euro when ever u can
hope it helps

steve

DGOBS · 07-08-2013 7:20am

An has your 'water butt' been tested for oil suitability? is it the right material or thickness?
DIYing tanks is not advisable

Dtp79 · 07-08-2013 9:09am

DGOBS wrote: »

An has your 'water butt' been tested for oil suitability? is it the right material or thickness?
DIYing tanks is not advisable

+1

mcgregor · 07-08-2013 3:26pm

ive used mine for 3 years now and not a problem,pvc is non pourus,
a kerosene tank is just the same a your water tank in the loft,u can use a small over flow tank with a lid on it,
i come from the highlands in scotland and we have harsher winters than here but we use them and never have a problem,we would use it if we did

mcgregor · 07-08-2013 3:30pm

pillphil wrote: »

Would something like this not make more sense?

http://www.tanks-direct.co.uk/cone_tanks

yea these would do fine

JohnnieK · 11-08-2013 1:04am

It's cheaper to buy oil in bulk than in smaller quantities.

shane0007 · 11-08-2013 7:36am

mcgregor wrote: »

yea these would do fine

Not necessarily. They would need to be certified to hold the fuel stored within them, i.e. gas oil or kerosene. If not, & there was a spill or fire, then home insurance may not pay out even if the tank material was not to blame.
The tank generally must hold an OFCERT to comply.
Other normal oil tank storage regulations will also apply.

DGOBS · 11-08-2013 11:57am

They can't be opaque

shane0007 · 11-08-2013 2:13pm

DGOBS wrote: »

They can't be opaque

+1

mcgregor · 11-08-2013 4:44pm

YEA THEY COME IN THE DARK GREEN

pillphil · 11-08-2013 6:28pm

Wow, this thread really took off, a year and a half later:)

DGOBS wrote: »

They can't be opaque

Why can't they be opaque? What's the reasoning behind it? Is opaque material weaker or less suitable somehow?

shane0007 · 11-08-2013 7:09pm

pillphil wrote: »

Why can't they be opaque? What's the reasoning behind it? Is opaque material weaker or less suitable somehow?

2 reasons:
a) Opaque plastic does not have the same UV protection as solid dark colours so it does not offer the same strength & life span.
b) Opaque tanks absorb more heat rather than reflecting sun's rays. This creates more condensation inside the tank, which is hygroscopic. This thus leads to bacterial growth & multiplies as a slimey sludge like material. The sun's rays also promotes a more ideal environment for this growth.

Hence, burner manufacturer's want OFCERT tanks supplying their burners & insurance companies want them for environmental & fire protection reasons.

Just because opaque DIY tanks are used in the Outer Hebrides does not mean they are acceptable here!

shane0007 · 11-08-2013 7:12pm

pillphil wrote: »

Wow, this thread really took off, a year and a half later:)

Never even noticed it was such an old thread resurrected!

DGOBS · 11-08-2013 7:17pm

Look guys, you can argue all you want about it, we work within the industry and are trying to advise you
NOT TO DIY OIL TANKS
Not because of any benefit to ourselves, but to YOU!

Oil tanks are designed for just that OIL.......
all these suggestions here are not designed for it

There is different quality plastics, and those used in oil tanks are designed for it,
if you do you own thing, you are breaking building regulations, BS5410 part 1, and most likely voiding your household insurance for anything caused by your actions (and oil spills can be extremely expensive to remedy)

I understand your frustrations looking for small oil tanks, but the manufacturers don't seem to do them as buying oil in small quantities has always been more expensive, maybe approaching the manufacturers with your idea maybe the better route.

mcgregor · 11-08-2013 8:30pm

acceptable and being ripped off are 2 diffrent things,who ever fills u there oil tank for some piket twat t robb it,or some unforunate soul struggling to make ends meet tipp the tank for a little heat,self sufficienncy and self perserverannce comes first a small tank for the hard working person who is trying there best to keep out of debt,pay there bills and ohhh does your tank have a bull**** crt with it,so heres my final view,yea we wear kilts so the the govermment can easily kiss my arse

gifted · 11-08-2013 9:32pm

mcgregor wrote: »

acceptable and being ripped off are 2 diffrent things,who ever fills u there oil tank for some piket twat t robb it,or some unforunate soul struggling to make ends meet tipp the tank for a little heat,self sufficienncy and self perserverannce comes first a small tank for the hard working person who is trying there best to keep out of debt,pay there bills and ohhh does your tank have a bull**** crt with it,so heres my final view,yea we wear kilts so the the govermment can easily kiss my arse

I disagree...there skirts not kilts

scudo2 · 11-08-2013 9:39pm

I'm replacing a lot of oil pumps in houses that are only buying oil by the 5 gallon oil drum.
Running out of oil once every couple of years is no major damage to oil pump.
Running the pump dry twice a week
does major wear and tear on oil pump resulting in expensive repair bill.

DGOBS · 11-08-2013 9:43pm

Somewhat agree, but polluting our land, waterways and drinking water with ill conceived diy oil tanks doesn't solve much!
And when the leak attacks the foundations of your house and the only option to make it liveable again is to demolish it and rebuild
at you own cost, I think you would have much preferred a certified oil tank!

Sometimes to correct way is the cheapest in the long run.

PS. I work hard too, and struggle to fill my tank as do you.

And that's my final view too;)

scudo2 · 11-08-2013 10:01pm

DGOBS wrote: »

Somewhat agree, but polluting our land, waterways and drinking water with ill conceived diy oil tanks doesn't solve much!
And when the leak attacks the foundations of your house and the only option to make it liveable again is to demolish it and rebuild
at you own cost, I think you would have much preferred a certified oil tank!

Sometimes to correct way is the cheapest in the long run.

PS. I work hard too, and struggle to fill my tank as do you.

And that's my final view too;)

I have NEVER come across an instulation that meet ALL the standards in relation to drains and boundrys.
Even had a module boiler sitting over the bore hole well and the hydrolic ram leaked down it destroying the well and water supply forever.
Common sence at least please on all jobs is what I look for.

mcgregor · 12-08-2013 9:41am

gifted wrote: »

I disagree...there skirts not kilts

NO THATS ON WEDNESDAY NIGHTS HAHAHAHAHA

dathi · 12-08-2013 10:50am

DGOBS wrote: »

There is different quality plastics, and those used in oil tanks are designed for it,
if you do you own thing, you are breaking building regulations, BS5410 part 1, and most likely voiding your household insurance for anything caused by your actions (and oil spills can be extremely expensive to remedy)

the building regulation contained in part j states in j4 "a fixed oil storage tank which serves a heat producing appliance shall be so located as to reduce to a reasonable level the risk of fire spreading from a building to the tank". that is the building regulation . what you are quoting in bs5410 is from the guidance document which shows ways of complying with the regulation not the regulation its self , also if you continued read in that section of the guidance document it clearly says "where a tank is used which is not covered by the guidance in bs5410 the protective measures should be appropriate to the level of risk of fire spread to the tank". so there fore the you are allowed to use a tank which does not comply with bs5410 if you can show adequate protection measures to prevent the spread of fire.

shane0007 · 12-08-2013 11:09am

I think you will find that you should not read one regulation in isolation. There will be many more regulations that will affect both the installation & the material of the tank, both BS standards, IS standards and also EN standards.

Legally, industry best practice will also have its say.

mcgregor · 12-08-2013 1:31pm

so the regulation says your tank must meet its standards but if it doesnt you can use a tank that doesnt as long as it will not go on fire,a tank i a tank,use the same fittings as is on your original masssive giannormous huge tank and fit it n a 100 itre water but and keep t half full,pay as you go kerosene just top up when you can or need

dathi · 12-08-2013 2:01pm

shane0007 wrote: »

I think you will find that you should not read one regulation in isolation. There will be many more regulations that will affect both the installation & the material of the tank, both BS standards, IS standards and also EN standards.

Legally, industry best practice will also have its say.

my point shane is that people read the the technical guidance documents and assume that they are the building regulations, they are not. they are an accepted means of complying with the regulations but not the only way of complying . to offer advise based solely on the building regs is incorrect but it is equally incorrect to say that a tank must comply with bs5410 part1 1977 (which is an obsolete bs) because it is in the technical guidance document .the guidance documents are not the law, they are there for guidance. the building regulation is the law and it is printed in the grey boxes under the heading building regulations the requirement

mcgregor · 12-08-2013 3:34pm

i just drove to an oil disributer in my area and he has a water butt filled with kerosene to heat at self contained apartment on his land,he says why would it be a problem,as long as it doesnt leak has a removable cap and is situated in a safe place away from any fire or heat emiting applyances,
reglation v legislation.....legislatio n says as long as its safe

pillphil · 12-08-2013 6:08pm

DGOBS wrote: »

Look guys, you can argue all you want about it, we work within the industry and are trying to advise you
NOT TO DIY OIL TANKS
Not because of any benefit to ourselves, but to YOU!

Oil tanks are designed for just that OIL.......
all these suggestions here are not designed for it

There is different quality plastics, and those used in oil tanks are designed for it,
if you do you own thing, you are breaking building regulations, BS5410 part 1, and most likely voiding your household insurance for anything caused by your actions (and oil spills can be extremely expensive to remedy)

I understand your frustrations looking for small oil tanks, but the manufacturers don't seem to do them as buying oil in small quantities has always been more expensive, maybe approaching the manufacturers with your idea maybe the better route.

To be honest, I was thinking aloud (or whatever the forum equivalent of that is) more than anything.

all these suggestions here are not designed for it

My suggestion was for a car (or more likely motorbike) fuel tank, which is designed for a combustible fuel.

How about a motorbike fuel tank installed by a plumber?

JohnnieK wrote:

It's cheaper to buy oil in bulk than in smaller quantities.

The poor can rarely afford to do what's cheap.

shane0007 · 12-08-2013 6:22pm

dathi wrote: »

my point shane is that people read the the technical guidance documents and assume that they are the building regulations, they are not. they are an accepted means of complying with the regulations but not the only way of complying . to offer advise based solely on the building regs is incorrect but it is equally incorrect to say that a tank must comply with bs5410 part1 1977 (which is an obsolete bs) because it is in the technical guidance document .the guidance documents are not the law, they are there for guidance. the building regulation is the law and it is printed in the grey boxes under the heading building regulations the requirement

BS5410 Part 1 is domestic & not 1977. It is 2010, I even think there is a new one for 2013.
Technical Guidance are taken as how to interpret the regulation which is law, therefore the guidance is law indirectly sort of speak!

DGOBS · 12-08-2013 6:35pm

This really has turned into a pissing contest.

If you want to do it, where are the oil tank police.
If you want professional advise, no it is not advisable (and the paddy found a way solution does not change that answer)

Other than that, I think this thread has run its course and is not progressing.

Oh no it hasn't, oh yes it has, oh no it hasn't

BS5410 Part 1 for domestic is what would be argued in a court of law to discribe best practice and standards for oil tank installation (TGD j also references to it)
Obsolete my backside!

pillphil · 12-08-2013 6:47pm

Well then this would be a definitive answer regardless of material?

The minimum net capacity of oil storage tanks should be not less than 1 250 l and should also be sufficient to accommodate the usual quantity ordered with a two week reserve.

Anyone know what the reasoning behind this is?

gifted · 12-08-2013 7:20pm

anyone know a Barrister who served his time as a plumber first and could explain this thread to me cos it's turning into a "I know the regulations more than you thread":D

pillphil · 12-08-2013 7:28pm

gifted wrote: »

anyone know a Barrister who served his time as a plumber first and could explain this thread to me cos it's turning into a "I know the regulations more than you thread":D

I'll translate

Leave your oil tank alone

dathi · 13-08-2013 11:24am

DGOBS wrote: »

This really has turned into a pissing contest.

If you want to do it, where are the oil tank police.
If you want professional advise, no it is not advisable (and the paddy found a way solution does not change that answer)

Other than that, I think this thread has run its course and is not progressing.

Oh no it hasn't, oh yes it has, oh no it hasn't

BS5410 Part 1 for domestic is what would be argued in a court of law to discribe best practice and standards for oil tank installation (TGD j also references to it)
Obsolete my backside!

the TGD j references the 1977 bs5410 which is obsolete as it has been replaced by a newer edition as pointed out by shane and no this "paddy" was not saying what the op was asking was advisable what i was saying was miss-quoting the building regulations by quoting a section of the Technical guidance document as the law and saying he would invalidate his insurance is bul****

DGOBS · 15-08-2013 12:43am

Standards, regulations and TGDs are always referencing other standards that have become obsolete, but once they have it would be considered 'normal practice' to use the most current standard that has rendered the old one obsolete, would it not?

Hence why when I mentioned Part J referencing Bs5410 Part 1, I did not mention 1997.

It is the responsibity of competent people to work to current regulations and standards.

If an insurance company investigated a deistic oil spill where the tank was incorrectly installed or maintained they would (and have done in my presence) invalidated a policy and not paid out.
The customer in mind had a cleanup bill in excess of €10,000.
Another has the house torn down, soil cleaned and all rebuilt at a cost of £240,000 outside Derry a few years back
So you may thinks is bull, but I have seen first hand that it isn't.

Insurance companies always pay out dont they, ask all those poor sods with pyrite, or those from The Priory in north Dublin.

Smaller Kerosene Tanks

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