Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Felexicon · 25-05-2012 2:45pm

s.welstead wrote: »

I believe Homerjay was the first to bring it up in this thread and a lot of people questioned him at the time.
I remember having a post half typed up agreeing with him when I just deleted it. I didn't think I had the time to debate the topic back and forth but anyway I'll give it a go now.

I don't rate him and never really have. My reasons are simple. The previous 3 assistants under Fergie while I've supported him have been Kidd, McClaren and Queiroz.
With all 3 you had so many articles or comments from current and past players and other pro's all with a positive spin. They were all high profile and you could see how much respect and admiration the players all had for them.
With Phelan however the silence is deafening. All you have is a few murmurings of the likes of Neville and Rooney having diagreements and such with the guy. There's no queue of players coming out and saying how he has developed them as players or how much influence he has at the club. He seems to be more Fergies eyes and ears.

With the amount of power and influence Fergie wields he 'needs' a strong assistant with him. To question him, challenge him and offer up new ideas.
With Kidd I think he had the calming influence for the squad. Fergie was the hairdryer tyrant and Kidd was the 'good cop'.
With McClaren he brought huge technical improvements to training and devolopment.
With Queiroz he has pretty much been credited with our European style changes of recent years(not last year) that brought us so much success in Europe.
With Phelan well I have no idea what he brings to the table really. I'm sure he's competent in the tasks Fergie delegates but is that really enough?

Well of couse that's enough. As you've clearly stated all previous assistant managers served different purposes to the club. One which Fergie wanted and the team needed at the time. Why are you of the opinion that Phelan is any different. How many times do you hear players at other clubs talking about thier assistant manager? Hardly ever. Does this mean there are no good assistant managers anywhere

IvySlayer · 25-05-2012 2:46pm

One thing about Phelan, is how clueless on the bench he looks.

Queiroz was mainly in charge of our tactics, and that semi-final vs Barcelona was all him. Both Gary Neville and Roy Keane spoke about how much control he had. Anyway if he goes, can we tempt Ole?

Kylo Ren · 25-05-2012 2:49pm

For all the people wanting Phelan out, who do you see as a replacement?

Your Airbag · 25-05-2012 2:52pm

Keno 92 wrote: »

For all the people wanting Phelan out, who do you see as a replacement?

This and the timing of Peps statement is perfect

Its like its meant to be

Macca07 · 25-05-2012 2:53pm

Keno 92 wrote: »

For all the people wanting Phelan out, who do you see as a replacement?

Giggs and Scholes in a joint role.

IvySlayer · 25-05-2012 2:53pm

Keno 92 wrote: »

For all the people wanting Phelan out, who do you see as a replacement?

Mourinho.

stesaurus · 25-05-2012 2:55pm

Keno 92 wrote: »

For all the people wanting Phelan out, who do you see as a replacement?

Ole

Solskjaer was ear-marked for management long before he retired as a player. Sir Alex Ferguson reckoned that he had rarely encountered anyone as adept at reading a game from the bench. While other substitutes would be self-absorbed, unable to concentrate on play in which they were not involved, Solskjaer would watch, analyse, assess an opponent's weakness, ready to exploit it the moment he was unleashed into the action.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/jim-white/solskjaer-waiting-120346088.html

stesaurus · 25-05-2012 3:01pm

Felexicon wrote: »

Well of couse that's enough. As you've clearly stated all previous assistant managers served different purposes to the club. One which Fergie wanted and the team needed at the time. Why are you of the opinion that Phelan is any different. How many times do you hear players at other clubs talking about thier assistant manager? Hardly ever. Does this mean there are no good assistant managers anywhere

Fergie is not omnipotent. He makes mistakes. He's a stubborn bollix at times and he really does need someone beside that's able to stand up and question him. I don't think Phelan does that, he seems a 'yes' man.

Other clubs are not in the media anywhere near as much as United. Maybe you don't read much on other clubs and their internal workings but yes generally you will have players praising the coaching staff and their impact on the game. Obviously less so at lower levels but you'd expect that.

MagicMarker · 25-05-2012 3:01pm

Well Ole obviously won't leave Molde this summer.

I nominate Neville.

Felexicon · 25-05-2012 3:03pm

s.welstead wrote: »

Fergie is not omnipotent. He makes mistakes. He's a stubborn bollix at times and he really does need someone beside that's able to stand up and question him. I don't think Phelan does that, he seems a 'yes' man.

Other clubs are not in the media anywhere near as much as United. Maybe you don't read much on other clubs and their internal workings but yes generally you will have players praising the coaching staff and their impact on the game. Obviously less so at lower levels but you'd expect that.

How does he seem like a yes man?
Do you think having a different assistant would have meant more success for United in the last few years

DM_7 · 25-05-2012 3:03pm

Daniel Bryan,

if SAF wants a YES! YES! YES! man.

Kylo Ren · 25-05-2012 3:05pm

Macca07 wrote: »

Giggs and Scholes in a joint role.

I'm picturing Scholes and Giggs in either a massive Centra roll or them being rolled up into a blunt.

J. Marston · 25-05-2012 3:12pm

IvySlayer wrote: »

One thing about Phelan, is how clueless on the bench he looks.

He does have a clueless look about him. Doesn't help that he look like Karl Pilkington's Dad either.

Jax Teller · 25-05-2012 3:14pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well Ole obviously won't leave Molde this summer.

I nominate Neville.

I was going to say Neville but he just signed a 4 year deal with England and with Sky too i dont think he'd be able .

stesaurus · 25-05-2012 3:18pm

Felexicon wrote: »

How does he seem like a yes man?
Do you think having a different assistant would have meant more success for United in the last few years

Well obviously I don't know. It should go without saying but it's an opinion. The same way I have an opinion of what Rooney is like in person etc. based on interviews, actions on the pitch etc. Or basically any other person on the planet who i've never actually met. Are you saying you're neutral on anyone you haven't met or talked with before?
Phelan comes across as an agreeable f*cker. He doesn't seem to have ambition, having turned down other manager roles. His demeanour on the touchline. The shorts

I think it's possible for more success, yes. Fergie has gotten it tactically wrong in the last 2 Champions League finals. He also got it pretty wrong against City at the Etihad. Who knows what could have happened with someone there with a stronger tactical brain.
Just because we've been successfull lately does not mean this was down to Phelan.

Nailz · 25-05-2012 3:19pm

What on earth are people pinning all this cluelessness and **** on Mike Phelan? What is to say he wasn't doing a good job while he was here? It's bordering on stupidity I think.

Felexicon · 25-05-2012 3:21pm

s.welstead wrote: »

Well obviously I don't know. It should go without saying but it's an opinion. The same way I have an opinion of what Rooney is like in person etc. based on interviews, actions on the pitch etc. Or basically any other person on the planet who i've never actually met. Are you saying you're neutral on anyone you haven't met or talked with before?
Phelan comes across as an agreeable f*cker. He doesn't seem to have ambition, having turned down other manager roles. His demeanour on the touchline. The shorts

I think it's possible for more success, yes. Fergie has gotten it tactically wrong in the last 2 Champions League finals. He also got it pretty wrong against City at the Etihad. Who knows what could have happened with someone there with a stronger tactical brain.
Just because we've been successfull lately does not mean this was down to Phelan.

Would Fergie have taken tactical advice from anyone? Is he suddenly going to say "you're right what would I know I'm only the most decorated manager in English football"
Also while the success is not all down to Phelan it certainly is not in spite of him

Pro. F · 25-05-2012 3:31pm

The only choices of assistant I would be interested in would be somebody from outside the club. Any of Fergie's past players are unlikely to bring new ideas.

I don't see much evidence either way whether Phelan is as bad as people make out. Other than the horror show at City I don't agree that there has been a problem with the tactics. And I don't agree that Quiroz was the tactical genius that he is usually portrayed as.

Something that a new assistant could definitely help with though is our transfer strategy. Based on who Ferguson has bought over the last few years and based on who we are linked to this summer (which is a less reliable measure) Fergie has a huge blind spot in the middle of the pitch. Either the scouting is no good at finding CM options to buy or the management doesn't see any problems there. It would be great if a new assistant could change that.

I'm honestly thinking there is a decent chance that Pep would be interested in the job. I think he has said in the past that he would be interested in working under Ferguson. And supposedly the workload and pressure at Barca was a large part of why he left. An assistant role at United might look very good to him right now.

stesaurus · 25-05-2012 3:31pm

Felexicon wrote: »

Would Fergie have taken tactical advice from anyone? Is he suddenly going to say "you're right what would I know I'm only the most decorated manager in English football"Also while the success is not all down to Phelan it certainly is not in spite of him

You really think someone would last at the top as long as Fergie by having that kind of attitude?
Of course he listens to opinions. Like I said earlier Queiroz was pretty much responsible according to all accounts for our tactical changes in Europe which brought all the success recently. It's only in the last year we've changed back to a Fergie style 4-4-2 and look how that turned out?

Nobody lasts at the top with having a closed off attitude. You need people around you to challenge your ideas and philosophies. Fergie is an amazing manager but he ain't perfect.

Kerrydude1981 · 25-05-2012 3:36pm

Mike Phelan might not be the best assistant manager ever but he is a good man to burst a balloon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4cpOpvoWgM

Pro. F · 25-05-2012 3:45pm

s.welstead wrote: »

Like I said earlier Queiroz was pretty much responsible according to all accounts for our tactical changes in Europe which brought all the success recently. It's only in the last year we've changed back to a Fergie style 4-4-2 and look how that turned out?

The tactical changes didn't bring all the success at all. During Quiroz's time we had VDS, Rio and Vidic all in their prime and Ronaldo plus Rooney and Tevez at the other end. Playing a deep lying counter attacking game is nothing especially innovative tactically and that's all that he had the team doing. The success came about because of the phenomenal players we had then. In his time we beat the Rijkaard managed Barca by a gee hair and then did the same too Avram Grant's Chelsea in the final. When he left we got to two more finals - the last after having changed the style to make up for the loss of Ronaldo - and got beat by the far superior version of Barca that Pep had brought about.

I'm not saying Quiroz was no good, or that Phelan is better than him, but Quiroz does get far more credit than he deserves.

Samich · 25-05-2012 4:20pm

Pro. F wrote: »

The tactical changes didn't bring all the success at all. During Quiroz's time we had VDS, Rio and Vidic all in their prime and Ronaldo plus Rooney and Tevez at the other end. Playing a deep lying counter attacking game is nothing especially innovative tactically and that's all that he had the team doing. The success came about because of the phenomenal players we had then. In his time we beat the Rijkaard managed Barca by a gee hair and then did the same too Avram Grant's Chelsea in the final. When he left we got to two more finals - the last after having changed the style to make up for the loss of Ronaldo - and got beat by the far superior version of Barca that Pep had brought about.

I'm not saying Quiroz was no good, or that Phelan is better than him, but Quiroz does get far more credit than he deserves.

I remember distinctly when Utd beat Arsenal 2-0. This was when Quieroz was assistant. Fergie gave him massive praise after the game, fergie said he was sure Wiltord wouldn't play. He said Wiltord will not play. Quieroz said he would play and was adamant he would. Fergie went with Quieroz's reckoning and fergie gave him loads of praise for the way they stopped Arsenal that day.

Pro. F · 25-05-2012 4:26pm

Samich wrote: »

I remember distinctly when Utd beat Arsenal 2-0. This was when Quieroz was assistant. Fergie gave him massive praise after the game, fergie said he was sure Wiltord wouldn't play. He said Wiltord will not play. Quieroz said he would play and was adamant he would. Fergie went with Quieroz's reckoning and fergie gave him loads of praise for the way they stopped Arsenal that day.

A manager saying nice things about his assistant doesn't prove anything.

homerjay2005 · 25-05-2012 4:44pm

Pro. F wrote: »

A manager saying nice things about his assistant doesn't prove anything.

phelan doesnt get much praise does he? during the 6-1 game this year, phelan spent the entire second half almost giving instructions to the players. after the game, fergie was going mad saying that they wouldnt listen to what they were told.

that for me shows that he is not respected, if fergie was on the line, they would have listened. i hope to god phelan goes to west brom or who ever else. what ever team he takes over, will sink quickly.

Samich · 25-05-2012 4:52pm

Pro. F wrote: »

A manager saying nice things about his assistant doesn't prove anything.

Only sayin'

Pro. F · 25-05-2012 4:53pm

homerjay2005 wrote: »

phelan doesnt get much praise does he? during the 6-1 game this year, phelan spent the entire second half almost giving instructions to the players. after the game, fergie was going mad saying that they wouldnt listen to what they were told.

that for me shows that he is not respected, if fergie was on the line, they would have listened

That's a very big leap tbf.

According to Fergie the team should have shut up shop and accepted the defeat. Seeing as that is the complete opposite of everything he has instilled in his teams and the club over the years, it's hardly surprising that the team kept trying to make a come back on the day.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i hope to god phelan goes to west brom or who ever else. what ever team he takes over, will sink quickly.

Almost certainly. Similar happened with Quiroz too though don't forget.

homerjay2005 · 25-05-2012 5:08pm

Pro. F wrote: »

That's a very big leap tbf.

According to Fergie the team should have shut up shop and accepted the defeat. Seeing as that is the complete opposite of everything he has instilled in his teams and the club over the years, it's hardly surprising that the team kept trying to make a come back on the day.

Almost certainly. Similar happened with Quiroz too though don't forget.

Real werent exactly the most stable now were they? He had no power there so basically just a puppet. real did however play wonderful football under him.he was sacked from portug due to his drugs test outburst and not performance.

Samich · 25-05-2012 5:19pm

Also doubt Phelan will be going to west brom, Ranieri has been talking with them.

Pro. F · 25-05-2012 5:29pm

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Real werent exactly the most stable now were they? He had no power there so basically just a puppet. real did however play wonderful football under him.he was sacked from portug due to his drugs test outburst and not performance.

That's true actually. I'd forgotten about the drugs thing. I would assume he is better than Phelan in terms of coaching, but still I think he gets way too much credit for United's CL success.

SirDelboy18 · 25-05-2012 7:30pm

Phelan doesn't look the part at all in my view. Especially considering the fact that our last two were Quiroz and Walter Smith (briefly). Ferguson definetly needs a stronger personality beside him to stop him from making occasional huge tactical errors ( MAN CITY AWAY! and many others).

Paul Tergat · 25-05-2012 7:31pm

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Phelan doesn't look the part at all in my view. Especially considering the fact that our last two were Quiroz and Walter Smith (briefly). Ferguson definetly needs a stronger personality beside him to stop him from making occasional huge tactical errors ( MAN CITY AWAY! and many others).

Wtf is this doesnt look the part about? People seem to be focusing too much on him coming in training gear whereas in reality we know little to **** all of the impact he has

SirDelboy18 · 25-05-2012 7:34pm

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Wtf is this doesnt look the part about? People seem to be focusing too much on him coming in training gear whereas in reality we know little to **** all of the impact he has

I think it might help players respect him more when he doesn't look and sound a bit stupid sometimes.

bucketybuck · 25-05-2012 7:36pm

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Wtf is this doesnt look the part about? People seem to be focusing too much on him coming in training gear whereas in reality we know little to **** all of the impact he has

As a United fan , I and others knew full well what impact Brian Kidd, Steve McClaren, Carlos Queiroz and even Walter Smith had. I have written all this here before and it remains the same. I knew in 99 how highly rated McClaren was. I knew how Queriez went from a scapegoat to his recognition of being tactically asute. Kidds legacy was always well known.
I have no doubt a Liverpool fan could say the same about his club, while Arsenal fans know just what Pat Rice brought to the party.

Yet nobody seems to know **** all about what Phelan does? Mmmm. I wonder why that is?

Paul Tergat · 25-05-2012 7:37pm

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

I think it might help players respect him more when he doesn't look and sound a bit stupid sometimes.

Look and sound stupid? You talking about a few of the random stills we have posted here for the laugh? Reckon Fergie doesnt have such stills too?

I dont see how anyone can be in a position to judge the influence/impact Phelan has.

Al Capwned · 25-05-2012 7:37pm

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

I think it might help players respect him more when he doesn't look and sound a bit stupid sometimes.

In fairness, the players spend hours each day with him, and i'm sure their opinion of him would be based on what happens in that time, and not what he wears.

Paul Tergat · 25-05-2012 7:38pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

As a United fan , I and others knew full well what impact Brian Kidd, Steve McClaren, Carlos Queiroz and even Walter Smith had. I have written all this here before and it remains the same. I knew in 99 how highly rated McClaren was. I knew how Queriez went from a scapegoat to his recognition of being tactically asute. Kidds legacy was always well known.
I have no doubt a Liverpool fan could say the same about his club, while Arsenal fans know just what Pat Rice brought to the party.

Yet nobody seems to know **** all about what Phelan does? Mmmm. I wonder why that is?

How? They are bigger names and have done or gone on to do other things. Thats it imo.

You and the rest of us know nothing of what Phelan does behind the scenes, whether its on the training pitch or with regards the tactics. Its all guesswork from everyone

SirDelboy18 · 25-05-2012 7:43pm

alproctor wrote: »

In fairness, the players spend hours each day with him, and i'm sure their opinion of him would be based on what happens in that time, and not what he wears.

I can accept that, and I can't back up much I say on him with facts. It is speculation and personal opinion from seeing him in the dugout and in interviews.

I do think that there is a big consensus that he is definitely not the man for the role, and while nobody can say "I've been at Carrington and Phelan has been sh*t" - He is no Quiroz by any means. Evidence? Gary Neville's huge praise for him masterminding the victory over Barca in 08.

PhlegmyMoses · 25-05-2012 7:51pm

Queiroz was terrible for Portugal. He was on the brink of not qualifying for the World Cup and lost to Denmark and drew with Albainia iirc and then when they eventually got there, they only scored against North Korea.

I was over there just before the World Cup and every person I spoke to wanted him gone and thought he was rubbish. Again, I really do think that people liked Queiroz more than Phelan because he's a bit foreign and exotic and Phelan looks like a barman.

n32 · 25-05-2012 7:54pm

Mike Phelan for Liverpool

Pro. F · 25-05-2012 8:13pm

The only certain criticism of Phelan that can be put forward is that he's come into the position from inside the club. So it's reasonable to say that he's not likely to be bringing any new ideas to the coaching.

That isn't necessarily the end of the world though. All the ideas that the previous assistants introduced to the club won't have just evaporated. And Fergie is one of the best managers of all time so I think the idea that he is fùcked without somebody whispering tactics in his ear is silly.

The criticisms of Phelan based on his appearance on the sideline and in a few brief interviews just show that some people make judgements on very poor evidence.

Your Airbag · 25-05-2012 8:20pm

Pro. F wrote: »

The criticisms of Phelan based on his appearance on the sideline and in a few brief interviews just show that some people make judgements on very poor evidence.

Here here, all I'm hearing is "He doesn't look like he knows what he's doing, he looks confused, he looks like a yes man" or some simlar guesswork.

The truth is nobody knows, he could be having a very positive influence. People are talking like its a police line up and trying to pick out the dodgiest looking guy there.

If people were fired under the criteria that they didn't look like they knew what they were doing some of the best managers would be in trouble.

DM_7 · 25-05-2012 8:26pm

Phelan is clearly ****.

The way some of ye defend him you would swear United won league Championships, reached Champions League finals, won league cups during his time as assistant manager.

You would think he served time as first team coach - you know a role that involves working with the first team - as United won leagues, a champions league, league cup, FA cup.

Holy Moly, its like ye think he has been coaching for 15+ years and at United for 10+ years.

Oh I think i did that wrong....

bucketybuck · 25-05-2012 8:44pm

Paul Tergat wrote: »

How? They are bigger names and have done or gone on to do other things. Thats it imo.

Please don't speak as if you know what I know, or how I know it. If you were out of nappies in 1995, you would have heard the likes of Sharpe or McClair speak of the influence of Brian Kidd. Before United won anything in 1999, McClaren was being lauded as one of Englands greatest coaching prospects, it was well known that he turned down management roles to become Uniteds assistant manager.

To claim we only know of them after the fact is just handwaving rubbish, and completely wrong.

Whats also frustrating is the strawman argument that because one person mentioned his appearance, well, now apparently all criticism of Phelan is based on his appearance. :rolleyes: You really think my opinion of his role has anything to do with appearance? Behave yourself.

Fenix · 25-05-2012 9:07pm

Aparently had a bid of €16m rejected for Kagawa.

Old news? Been stuffing my face this last few hours.

FutureGuy · 25-05-2012 9:18pm

Fenix wrote: »

Aparently had a bid of €16m rejected for Kagawa.

Old news? Been stuffing my face this last few hours.

At least we are actively trying to sign him independant of what happens with hazard.

Eathrin · 25-05-2012 9:29pm

Does it frustrate anyone else when they come out with a ridiculously low figure a player 'could' be got for only that will will nearly definitely go up some huge amount.
Happened with Young iirc.

Copper_pipe · 25-05-2012 9:35pm

Will Keane scores two goals for England u/19 vs slovenia

n32 · 25-05-2012 9:39pm

If mike phelan had a Spanish name and wore a collar and tie on the sideline would people be as quick to slate him. It seems any oul langer from Spain regardless of credentials is given way more respect than a rough and ready north of England man. Brian clough looked like a scruff on the sideline but that didn't make him a crap manager now did it?

The_Kew_Tour · 25-05-2012 10:02pm

Where are all the Pro Mike Phelan people getting this idea that it's a imagine thing?

There been plenty of posts giving their own views as to why he aint good enough and I have also drawn my own conclusions and said it here as to why I like change.

But ye still seem be saying same thing that its because we dont like his shorts or something.

bucketybuck · 25-05-2012 10:02pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Whats also frustrating is the strawman argument that because one person mentioned his appearance, well, now apparently all criticism of Phelan is based on his appearance. :rolleyes: You really think my opinion of his role has anything to do with appearance? Behave yourself.

n32 wrote: »

If mike phelan had a Spanish name and wore a collar and tie on the sideline would people be as quick to slate him. It seems any oul langer from Spain regardless of credentials is given way more respect than a rough and ready north of England man. Brian clough looked like a scruff on the sideline but that didn't make him a crap manager now did it?

:rolleyes:

Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

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