Are Irish provinces the most indigenous professional rugby clubs in the world?

Winters · 24-04-2012 1:37pm #1

With the majority of current squad members being born and raised (or raised from an early age) in their province and with the starting IVs usually featuring only 3 or 4 non provincial born players, are Ireland's provinces one of the most indigenous rugby clubs in professional rugby?

Clermont and Toulouse are often talked about as having home grown teams but on further inspection quite a lot of their French players are from all over France.

On a global scale and taking in all other top level sports I can only think of Athletic Bilbao having a more home grown team than the likes of Leinster and Munster.

Considering our size and playing pool, its highly commendable in todays age of professional sports.

Fishooks12 · 24-04-2012 1:42pm

Winters wrote: »

With the majority of current squad members being born and raised (or raised from an early age) in their province and with the starting IVs usually featuring only 3 or 4 non provincial born players, are Ireland's provinces one of the most indigenous rugby clubs in professional rugby?

Clermont and Toulouse are often talked about as having home grown teams but on further inspection quite a lot of their French players are from all over France.

On a global scale and taking in all other top level sports I can only think of Athletic Bilbao having a more home grown team than the likes of Leinster and Munster.

Considering our size and playing pool, its highly commendable in todays age of professional sports.

Nearly all S15 teams are made up of indigenous players, more so than the Irish provinces

sock puppet · 24-04-2012 1:52pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Nearly all S15 teams are made up of indigenous players, more so than the Irish provinces

Not so sure about that. I'd say players tend to move around a bit more in the Super 15.

Winters · 24-04-2012 1:56pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Nearly all S15 teams are made up of indigenous players, more so than the Irish provinces

Thanks, those are impressive stats in the Super Rugby rosters, especially in SA.

Perhaps I should revise the claim just to Europe.

irishbucsfan · 24-04-2012 1:59pm

South African Currie Cup teams I'd imagine.

Mr.Applepie · 24-04-2012 2:11pm

Winters wrote: »

Thanks, those are impressive stats in the Super Rugby rosters, especially in SA.

Perhaps I should revise the claim just to Europe.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Munster:
WDP
Botha
Ronan
Mafi/Downey
Lualalalalalalala
Howlett
Jones
Murphy
Keatley

All bar the last two would be pushing for the 1st team this season or next. That's 1/2 the team.

Leinster:
VDM
Strauss
Ross/White
Thorn
Reddan/Boss
Nacewa

Ulster:
Afoa
Court
Piennar
Terblanche
Wannenburg
Muller
Diack

WeeBushy · 24-04-2012 2:19pm

Also there's a lot of Irish players that weren't developed by their current province.

A full list of province's current 'non indigenous' players:

Leinster: Auva'a, Berquist, Browne, Cronin, Dundon, Nacewa, Reddan, Boss, Strauss, Ross, Thorn, Van der Merwe, White. 13/40.

Munster: Borlase, Botha, Chambers (or has he left?), Du Preez, Flannery (born in Galway and first contract was with Connacht. I always thougth he was a true Munsterman!), Jones, Howlett, Mafi, Keatley, Murphy, Ronan. 11/47.

Ulster: Afoa, Black, Court, D'Arcy, Danielli, Diack, Kyriacou, Muller, Payne, Pienaar, Terblanche, Wannenburg. 12/39.

Connacht: Ah You, Anderson, Fa'afili, Flavin, Grace, Jarvis, Loxton, Maguire, Matthews, McCarthy, McCrea, McSharry, Moore, Murphy, Naoupu, Nikora, N. O'Connor, O'Donohoe, Ofisa, Reynecke, Rogers, Swift, Vainikolo, Wilkinson, Gannon. 25/37

Burgo · 24-04-2012 2:21pm

Winters wrote: »

With the majority of current squad members being born and raised (or raised from an early age) in their province and with the starting IVs usually featuring only 3 or 4 non provincial born players, are Ireland's provinces one of the most indigenous rugby clubs in professional rugby?

Clermont and Toulouse are often talked about as having home grown teams but on further inspection quite a lot of their French players are from all over France.

On a global scale and taking in all other top level sports I can only think of Athletic Bilbao having a more home grown team than the likes of Leinster and Munster.

Considering our size and playing pool, its highly commendable in todays age of professional sports.

Not really, while a lot of the players in the provinces might be irish they are not necessarily playing for their own province, like ross and reddan from munster, keatley and jones from leinster etc.

Thanks weebushy! :pac:

[Jackass] · 24-04-2012 2:23pm

I would say highly indigenous, but not excessivley so. Leinster probably have the most local talent in their ranks / starting team, but still with Strauss, Ross, A.N other in second row, Boss / Reddan, Nacewa, there is likely to be 33% non-Leinster men in any given first 15 at the moment.

I think the biggest threat to Irish rugby as it stands is the IRFU's policy to try and make it MORE indigenous, when you look at teams like Toulouse (15), Racing Metro (18) Clermont (19), Toulon (24), Leicester (12), Northampton (14), Harlequins (7), Saracens (16), Ospreys (10), these numbers in brackets represent NON-UNION qualified players only, not including union qualified players from other clubs / regions, it will be impossible for the likes of Leinster (5), Munster (6) and Ulster (9) to survive long term with LESS foreign players and whatever they can pick up from a limited pool of reserve players from other provinces and local clubs and schools...

profitius · 24-04-2012 2:36pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

I would say highly indigenous, but not excessivley so. Leinster probably have the most local talent in their ranks / starting team, but still with Strauss, Ross, A.N other in second row, Boss / Reddan, Nacewa, there is likely to be 33% non-Leinster men in any given first 15 at the moment.

I think the biggest threat to Irish rugby as it stands is the IRFU's policy to try and make it MORE indigenous, when you look at teams like Toulouse (15), Racing Metro (18) Clermont (19), Toulon (24), Leicester (12), Northampton (14), Harlequins (7), Saracens (16), Ospreys (10), these numbers in brackets represent NON-UNION qualified players only, not including union qualified players from other clubs / regions, it will be impossible for the likes of Leinster (5), Munster (6) and Ulster (9) to survive long term with LESS foreign players and whatever they can pick up from a limited pool of reserve players from other provinces and local clubs and schools...

Leinster has the best academy in Europe. You're always boasting about it so why do they need as many non Irish players as they have now when they're producing so many players? Even Munster and Ulster are starting to produce a supply of players in most positions.

Meanwhile the Ireland team is short in certain positions.

irishbucsfan · 24-04-2012 2:38pm

So Munster and Leinster have been the two most succesful teams in Europe since 2006. Yet you are pointing at high numbers of NQ players in OTHER squads as if its the route to success? No logic in that at all.

Tox56 · 24-04-2012 2:47pm

profitius wrote: »

Leinster has the best academy in Europe. You're always boasting about it so why do they need as many non Irish players as they have now when they're producing so many players? Even Munster and Ulster are starting to produce a supply of players in most positions.

Meanwhile the Ireland team is short in certain positions.

Last year Leinster's starting 15 for the HEC Final had 2 NIQ's, one of whom will soon be IQ, and their direct replacements in the Irish team are Best and Bowe, and there is a significant pool of local talent in those positions (wing in particular). I don't really know what you are arguing, maybe I just missed the point.

profitius · 24-04-2012 2:50pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Last year Leinster's starting 15 for the HEC Final had 2 NIQ's, one of whom will soon be IQ, and their direct replacements in the Irish team are Best and Bowe. I don't really know what you are arguing, maybe I just missed the point.

I'm saying they don't need as many NIQ players as they had before. That stat backs up my point. Their academy is getting better all the time too as are the other academies in Ireland.

irishbucsfan · 24-04-2012 2:54pm

Tox56 wrote: »

profitius wrote: »

Leinster has the best academy in Europe. You're always boasting about it so why do they need as many non Irish players as they have now when they're producing so many players? Even Munster and Ulster are starting to produce a supply of players in most positions.

Meanwhile the Ireland team is short in certain positions.

Last year Leinster's starting 15 for the HEC Final had 2 NIQ's, one of whom will soon be IQ, and their direct replacements in the Irish team are Best and Bowe, and there is a significant pool of local talent in those positions (wing in particular). I don't really know what you are arguing, maybe I just missed the point.

That's his point more or less though...

JustinDee · 24-04-2012 2:57pm

Winters wrote: »

Clermont and Toulouse are often talked about as having home grown teams but on further inspection quite a lot of their French players are from all over France

???

Not even looking this up...

At Toulouse there is Vergallo, McAlister, Albacete, Giorgadze (arguably their best player this year), Botha, Sowerby, Burgess and allegedly Caucau.

At Clermont? Williams, Bennett, Hines, Cudmore, White, Byrne, Paulo, James, Canale, King, Russell, Sivivatu.

siltirocker · 24-04-2012 4:12pm

What I believe people are getting confused over here is counting homegrown as provincial or national.

Some count Keatley as homegrown others aren't. I believe the OP is referring to lads from the provinces/regions as oppose to nationality.

Winters · 24-04-2012 4:22pm

siltirocker wrote: »

What I believe people are getting confused over here is counting homegrown as provincial or national.

Some count Keatley as homegrown others aren't. I believe the OP is referring to lads from the provinces/regions as oppose to nationality.

Yes, I'm referring to players born and raised in their province. To go expand further, I am looking at the number of players that have come through the academy and stayed at their province throughout the career.

Compared to other sports, rugby in Ireland is so very unique. For a region the size of 20,000 square km to have the large majority of players to dedicate their sporting career to their region is incredible.

The question is, how many other teams and sports can claim to be so indigenous?

Teferi · 24-04-2012 4:36pm

Winters wrote: »

The question is, how many other teams and sports can claim to be so indigenous?

You could count the GAA in there I'd imagine.

[Jackass] · 24-04-2012 6:05pm

profitius wrote: »

Leinster has the best academy in Europe. You're always boasting about it so why do they need as many non Irish players as they have now when they're producing so many players? Even Munster and Ulster are starting to produce a supply of players in most positions.

Meanwhile the Ireland team is short in certain positions.

Yes, but my point is the recruitment resources of other teams, in the long term I don't think it's feasable to contend for a European cup every season when you are raiding local schools for players and other teams are raiding world cup squads...Look at teams like Racing or Toloun...if they continue in the same veign, it will be virtually impossible to compete unless there are strategic signings in Irish rugby.

The most flawed argument is that of the IRFU / presumably yourself, that these signings are ruining Irish rugby, when in fact, without these signings, we wouldn't be competeing for and winning Heineken Cups, Irish players wouldn't be getting exposure to that level of rugby, our best players would find it difficult to turn down teams that would compete for those trophies and most of all, they would not benefit young Irish players as much as they do, completely contrary to the argument that they block Irish players. Rocky at Leinster followed by a new level to Heaslips game followed by the emergence of SOB is a good example.

If the talent isn't there, it's easy to say the signings filling the gaps are blocking Irish players, but then have Jamie Hagan starting tighthead for Leinster and Stephen Archer at Munster and Tom Court at Ulster and see how long they last in the Heineken Cup...

profitius · 24-04-2012 6:27pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

Yes, but my point is the recruitment resources of other teams, in the long term I don't think it's feasable to contend for a European cup every season when you are raiding local schools for players and other teams are raiding world cup squads...Look at teams like Racing or Toloun...if they continue in the same veign, it will be virtually impossible to compete unless there are strategic signings in Irish rugby.

The most flawed argument is that of the IRFU / presumably yourself, that these signings are ruining Irish rugby, when in fact, without these signings, we wouldn't be competeing for and winning Heineken Cups, Irish players wouldn't be getting exposure to that level of rugby, our best players would find it difficult to turn down teams that would compete for those trophies and most of all, they would not benefit young Irish players as much as they do, completely contrary to the argument that they block Irish players. Rocky at Leinster followed by a new level to Heaslips game followed by the emergence of SOB is a good example.

If the talent isn't there, it's easy to say the signings filling the gaps are blocking Irish players, but then have Jamie Hagan starting tighthead for Leinster and Stephen Archer at Munster and Tom Court at Ulster and see how long they last in the Heineken Cup...

Its about getting the balance right. Elsom, Nacewa, Thorn etc are excellent signings but theres plenty of poor signings too. Tukola being a recent example of how to waste money.

You give Racing and Toulon as examples. They've won nothing yet and are filled with mercenaries. Leinster have a better team than those teams.

As for the props, theres more than Archer, Court and Hagan. Look at all the young props coming through. Yes, at the moment NIQ props are needed but we're getting our act together in bringing through props these days.

irishbucsfan · 24-04-2012 7:22pm

There are plenty of world cup winners playing in Ireland.

The IRFU are hardly banning NIQs!!!

jacothelad · 24-04-2012 7:37pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

I would say highly indigenous, but not excessivley so. Leinster probably have the most local talent in their ranks / starting team, but still with Strauss, Ross, A.N other in second row, Boss / Reddan, Nacewa, there is likely to be 33% non-Leinster men in any given first 15 at the moment.

I think the biggest threat to Irish rugby as it stands is the IRFU's policy to try and make it MORE indigenous, when you look at teams like Toulouse (15), Racing Metro (18) Clermont (19), Toulon (24), Leicester (12), Northampton (14), Harlequins (7), Saracens (16), Ospreys (10), these numbers in brackets represent NON-UNION qualified players only, not including union qualified players from other clubs / regions, it will be impossible for the likes of Leinster (5), Munster (6) and Ulster (9) to survive long term with LESS foreign players and whatever they can pick up from a limited pool of reserve players from other provinces and local clubs and schools...

Ulster don't have 9 Non Union Irish qualified players. Are you counting Irish qual. players from abroad? - Court, Black, D'Arcy, Diack. Next year - barring another signing - they will have Afoa, Muller, Pienaar and Payne as NIEs, one of whom will become IQ'd.

Kyriacou, Danielli, Wannenberg and Terblanche are leaving....hopefully with Heineken Winners Medals. They have all been fantastic servants in their own ways, have added tremendously to the team and the steady rise of the team. It just shows that the accountants, solicitors and bankers that run the IRFU know feck all squared about team building.

BoarHunter · 24-04-2012 8:19pm

In Academy standards there are a lot of players from Toulouse who play now in different teams of the TOP 14 such as Wisniewski, Huget, Mermoz and many others who could make a starting XV for the Irish provinces. Toulouse is a fantastic academy, I should take the time to look at that but it's impressive to see the number of class players they produce.
Bourgoin use to be the nursery of talents before... less now.

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 10:17am

jacothelad wrote: »

It just shows that the accountants, solicitors and bankers that run the IRFU know feck all squared about team building.

The majority of these so-called "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (don't forget the doctors, William...) have all played rugby union to a high standard and also run the professional game, bringing it to where it is now.

You're overreacting to the player succession policy that will be implemented. As if overseas players, non-project players were being banned altogether. They're not. There will be five per province if each province takes up its full entitlement in signings.

Relax, not everyone is out to get Ulster. There is a decent enough showing amongst the "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (not forgetting the doctors, of course) from the province on any committee you care to name and blame.

leftleg · 25-04-2012 10:40am

JustinDee wrote: »

The majority of these so-called "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (don't forget the doctors, William...) have all played rugby union to a high standard and also run the professional game, bringing it to where it is now.

You're overreacting to the player succession policy that will be implemented. As if overseas players, non-project players were being banned altogether. They're not. There will be five per province if each province takes up its full entitlement in signings.

Relax, not everyone is out to get Ulster. There is a decent enough showing amongst the "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (not forgetting the doctors, of course) from the province on any committee you care to name and blame.

No disrespect Justin but your impartiality on anything IRFU is well documented and while i agree to the main on what you say; it must be taken with a pinch of salt as these "accountants, solicitors, bankers and doctors" are paying your wages and possibly trolling your comments on boards

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 10:49am

leftleg wrote: »

No disrespect Justin but . . . etc

Less on the poster, 'leftleg'.
Cheers.

Riskymove · 25-04-2012 10:55am

we also shouldn't overlook that we are comparing a province to towns in other countries

Leinster is a sizeable part of the island, Munster contains decent sized places like limerick and cork

clermont or toulouse is one town with a hinterland and lots of other clubs in its immediate area

Teferi · 25-04-2012 11:05am

JustinDee wrote: »

Less on the poster, 'leftleg'.
Cheers.

Less of the backseat modding...

jacothelad · 25-04-2012 11:13am

JustinDee wrote: »

The majority of these so-called "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (don't forget the doctors, William...) have all played rugby union to a high standard and also run the professional game, bringing it to where it is now.

You're overreacting to the player succession policy that will be implemented. As if overseas players, non-project players were being banned altogether. They're not. There will be five per province if each province takes up its full entitlement in signings.

Relax, not everyone is out to get Ulster. There is a decent enough showing amongst the "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (not forgetting the doctors, of course) from the province on any committee you care to name and blame.

Just a bit of internet hyperbole to make a point JD. A bit of licence to stir debate. The player limit is right, the way it is being foisted on teams is wrong. Perhaps the coaches and senior players at the Provinces might just be in a better position than some of Das Kommitte.... (also a joke..in case you take it literally. Not everyone is out to get you just because the style is argumentative).

leftleg · 25-04-2012 12:04pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Less on the poster, 'leftleg'.
Cheers.

I didn't attack you Justin, just made a statement and began the post by asking that you not take it out of context. Sorry if you deem it an attack on you, it wasn't what i was trying to get at. Either way apologies, alot of your posts are fortright and absolutely on the money so please don't take the post to heart because its not an attack on you as a poster. Cheers and again sorry again.

25-04-2012 12:20pm

JustinDee wrote: »

The majority of these so-called "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (don't forget the doctors, William...) have all played rugby union to a high standard and also run the professional game, bringing it to where it is now.

You're overreacting to the player succession policy that will be implemented. As if overseas players, non-project players were being banned altogether. They're not. There will be five per province if each province takes up its full entitlement in signings.

Relax, not everyone is out to get Ulster. There is a decent enough showing amongst the "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (not forgetting the doctors, of course) from the province on any committee you care to name and blame.

Being a soldier doesn't guarantee you as a capable general.

totallegend · 25-04-2012 12:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Being a soldier doesn't guarantee you as a capable general.

Or more correctly, being an amateur solider then going off and doing something else as a full-time job for 30 years while reading about war in the paper, doesn't make you a capable general.

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 12:38pm

leftleg wrote: »

I didn't attack you Justin, just made a statement and began the post by asking that you not take it out of context. Sorry if you deem it an attack on you, it wasn't what i was trying to get at. Either way apologies, alot of your posts are fortright and absolutely on the money so please don't take the post to heart because its not an attack on you as a poster. Cheers and again sorry again.

No worries whatsoever. All good. I wasn't actually getting riled up either. Lets start again

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 12:58pm

totallegend wrote: »

Or more correctly, being an amateur solider then going off and doing something else as a full-time job for 30 years while reading about war in the paper, doesn't make you a capable general.

A tad generalistic in your pigeon-holing and rather pointless, I would say. Compare to other unions. Compared to the branches. Compare to other Association Football governing bodies even.
To keep the 'war' theme going then (where did that one come from?? lol), sitting at home playing 'Risk', watching 'Band of Brothers' or reading 'Commando' doesn't make anyone else outside the sport an expert either.

There. Done.
Thanks

totallegend · 25-04-2012 1:09pm

JustinDee wrote: »

A tad generalistic in your pigeon-holing and rather pointless, I would say. Compare to other unions. Compared to the branches. Compare to other Association Football governing bodies even.
To keep the 'war' theme going then (where did that one come from?? lol), sitting at home playing 'Risk', watching 'Band of Brothers' or reading 'Commando' doesn't make anyone else outside the sport an expert either.

There. Done.
Thanks

Ah yes, but I don't watch 'Band of Brothers' and then get put in charge of a parachute regiment. (@Merrick Wide Checkbook, thanks for the soldier/general analogy...)

The point is, you said that these guys on the various committees had played rugby to a high standard as though this was justification for their decisions in relation to management of the pro game being correct.

As far as I know, there aren't too many former pros involved in the IRFU committees, and if you've played amateur rugby in the 70s or 80s, it doesn't qualify you to decide how a professional sports team should be run. Or do you think it does?

leftleg · 25-04-2012 1:49pm

We can all be keyboard generals or keyboard doctors/solicitors/barristers so

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 2:26pm

totallegend wrote: »

As far as I know, there aren't too many former pros involved in the IRFU committees, and if you've played amateur rugby in the 70s or 80s, it doesn't qualify you to decide how a professional sports team should be run. Or do you think it does?

I'd say the setup of the professional game has been pretty successful here in making the game sustainable and manageable. That is why this format has been adopted by other unions.

Having experience in the game itself does help also.

totallegend · 25-04-2012 2:50pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I'd say the setup of the professional game has been pretty successful here in making the game sustainable and manageable. That is why this format has been adopted by other unions.

Having experience in the game itself does help also.

Yep, I agree. That's why I'm arguing against the changes that are proposed. Ain't broken, don't fix it and so forth.

25-04-2012 2:54pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I'd say the setup of the professional game has been pretty successful here in making the game sustainable and manageable. That is why this format has been adopted by other unions.

Having experience in the game itself does help also.

And being changed by the IRFU to achieve ..... ?

profitius · 25-04-2012 2:57pm

totallegend wrote: »

Ah yes, but I don't watch 'Band of Brothers' and then get put in charge of a parachute regiment. (@Merrick Wide Checkbook, thanks for the soldier/general analogy...)

The point is, you said that these guys on the various committees had played rugby to a high standard as though this was justification for their decisions in relation to management of the pro game being correct.

As far as I know, there aren't too many former pros involved in the IRFU committees, and if you've played amateur rugby in the 70s or 80s, it doesn't qualify you to decide how a professional sports team should be run. Or do you think it does?

The difference is that brawn is no longer required once a player retires. Joe Schmidt forexample is a much better coach than rugby player. He might not have been a great athlete but he understands systems, patterns and how to motivate players.

The IRFU have done a very good job. Its not perfect and there are still areas no doubt where they need to improve but look at Irish rugby now compared to where it was around the time it was dragged into professionalism.

You could argue that things fell into place like the ancient provincial borders etc but plnty of people could have fecked it all up too.

Th one area where they've failed is international rugby. Firing Gatland and hiring EOS for too long and Kidney for too long as well as the silly match win percentage that coaches have to match instead of squad development. Thats the one area where they need to giv the coaches more power and stop interfering.

[Jackass] · 25-04-2012 3:09pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Ulster don't have 9 Non Union Irish qualified players. Are you counting Irish qual. players from abroad? - Court, Black, D'Arcy, Diack. Next year - barring another signing - they will have Afoa, Muller, Pienaar and Payne as NIEs, one of whom will become IQ'd.

Kyriacou, Danielli, Wannenberg and Terblanche are leaving....hopefully with Heineken Winners Medals. They have all been fantastic servants in their own ways, have added tremendously to the team and the steady rise of the team. It just shows that the accountants, solicitors and bankers that run the IRFU know feck all squared about team building.

Sorry, yeah was counting D'Arcy & Diack (forgot they were IQ) along with Afoa, Wannenburg, Muller, Pienaar, Danielli, Payne & Terblanche.

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 3:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And being changed by the IRFU to achieve ..... ?

To ensure a depth in pool of home-based players in all positions remains prevalent. Medium to long term planning regarding national panel playerbase and in my view, a welcome review on how it is going.

thomond2006 · 25-04-2012 3:54pm

JustinDee wrote: »

To ensure a depth in pool of home-based players in all positions remains prevalent. Medium to long term planning regarding national panel playerbase and in my view, a welcome review on how it is going.

How will it be decided when two provinces both wish to sign a player for the same position i.e. scrumhalf?

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 4:01pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

How will it be decided when two provinces both wish to sign a player for the same position i.e. scrumhalf?

When the procedure is in place in time for the policy to be fully implemented and announcements regarding it, I'll join in the comments on that, but not before.
Sorry Alan.

thomond2006 · 25-04-2012 4:09pm

JustinDee wrote: »

When the procedure is in place in time for the policy to be fully implemented and announcements regarding it, I'll join in the comments on that, but not before.
Sorry Alan.

No problem, I understand.

CatFromHue · 25-04-2012 4:23pm

totallegend wrote: »

Yep, I agree. That's why I'm arguing against the changes that are proposed. Ain't broken, don't fix it and so forth.

The problem here is that for the HEC QF's we had only 3 Irish qualified props staring out of a possible 6. The only replacement props who made it onto the pitch for these games where White and Van der Mervw. White may eventually become Irish qualified but it won't be for what another two years.

So in total the Irish props made up 37.5% of the total players who played prop in the HEC QFs out of the Irish teams.

That's a pretty bad statistic if you ask me.

While I don't agree with the new IRFU rules in full I think in theory they're a good idea. The IRFU hadn't fully worked out the fine details of it before they released it and they should be admonished (is this the correct word? I don't think I've ever used it before!) for that.

25-04-2012 4:29pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

The problem here is that for the HEC QF's we had only 3 Irish qualified props staring out of a possible 6. The only replacement props who made it onto the pitch for these games where White and Van der Mervw. White may eventually become Irish qualified but it won't be for what another two years.

So in total the Irish props made up 37.5% of the total players who played prop in the HEC QFs out of the Irish teams.

That's a pretty bad statistic if you ask me.

While I don't agree with the new IRFU rules in full I think in theory they're a good idea. The IRFU hadn't fully worked out the fine details of it before they released it and they should be admonished (is this the correct word? I don't think I've ever used it before!) for that.

and clearly still haven't. It still doesn't make sense.

There is no carrot, only a stick.

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 4:41pm

Merrick Wide Checkbook wrote: »

CatFromHue wrote: »

The problem here is that for the HEC QF's we had only 3 Irish qualified props staring out of a possible 6. The only replacement props who made it onto the pitch for these games where White and Van der Mervw. White may eventually become Irish qualified but it won't be for what another two years.

So in total the Irish props made up 37.5% of the total players who played prop in the HEC QFs out of the Irish teams.

That's a pretty bad statistic if you ask me.

While I don't agree with the new IRFU rules in full I think in theory they're a good idea. The IRFU hadn't fully worked out the fine details of it before they released it and they should be admonished (is this the correct word? I don't think I've ever used it before!) for that.

and clearly still haven't. It still doesn't make sense.

There is no carrot, only a stick.

Apart from deciding which provinces get which players, what doesn't make sense to you?

25-04-2012 4:48pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Apart from deciding which provinces get which players, what doesn't make sense to you?

well considering how massively, massively important the bit that hasn't been figured out is...

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 4:58pm

Merrick Wide Checkbook wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Apart from deciding which provinces get which players, what doesn't make sense to you?

well considering how massively, massively important the bit that hasn't been figured out is...

Is it? I don't really think so. There are a number of ways to handle it.

You're only guessing that they havent figured it out as well.

25-04-2012 5:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it? I don't really think so. There are a number of ways to handle it.

You're only guessing that they havent figured it out as well.

Read Justin's answer to thomond...

Leinster and Munster and Ulster are competitors.

They've just been handed a "combined" constraint. There is literally no "fair" way to organise the placements bar random chance.

If we've got random chance decided who can sign whom, then it's not an organisation, it's bingo.

What methods would we use to decide who gets to have a TH NIQ when the rule comes into force that could be unbiased / deemed fair?

Are Irish provinces the most indigenous professional rugby clubs in the world?

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