M50 to be made even more unbearable

Victor · 17-02-2015 5:36pm

tnegun wrote: »

Ramp metering is desperately needed too plus it would cut down on the people skipping traffic by exiting and reentering the motorway also far more merge restrictions to stop weaving approaching the junctions.

Does this still happen? It is impractical at a lot of junctions.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I totally agree, but at the moment, with the crap rail infrastructure we have, for a lot of people it is either impossible or impractical. DU, MN and linking the luas lines in progress, are all essential. When we have an acceptable transport alternative, then maybe charge for entering inside the M50 zone and then again into the canal zones, but only once a reasonable alternative is in place...

Why not put the charge in place now to fund the changes?

Idbatterim · 17-02-2015 5:50pm

Why not put the charge in place now to fund the changes?

yeah that is the alternative, and I would have no problem paying a bit more to have the option...

On the other hand I could say cut the waste and fund the likes of this critical infrastructure that massively effects people quality of life out of that OR forget the 1 billion euro plus giveaway budget they will magic up this autumn, but thats not going to happen...

jackofalltrades · 17-02-2015 6:13pm

Victor wrote: »

Does this still happen? It is impractical at a lot of junctions.

Still happens on Junctions 10,11 when the traffic is bad.

Why not put the charge in place now to fund the changes?

People living in Dublin and motorists already pay enough.
If more of the taxes collected in Dublin, were spent in Dublin, then infrastructural upgrades could easily be paid for.
That and I don't think the Bus/Rail systems would cope well with a sudden increase in passenger numbers.

cgcsb · 17-02-2015 6:22pm

Calina wrote: »

Well that depends on practicality doesn't it?

I had a choice between a 25 minute commute cross city by car or a 90 minute commute cross city by bus. I drove it because at least it was reliable. The four weeks that I attempted to make the bus version work were hell on earth. This is within the M50.

It's one thing to say there is public transport. If you have a change in the city centre at all, either bus to bus or any sort of modal change, it can become impractical as an option as the time doesn't increase in a linear manner but in an exponential manner.

Arguably you can use it but it's not like your quality of life would be any better than sitting in a car for the same amount of time.

Of course, so the problem, within the M50 at least, isn't that there is no public transport, it's that the public transport options are too slow to be competitive with car.

The obvious, and difficult, solution to that problem is a radical improvement in public transport, not sending more cars onto the M50.

cgcsb · 17-02-2015 6:25pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Inside the M50? The likes of Crumlin / Drimnagh / Inchicore / Renelagh / Rathmines?

Those people should not own cars for themselves?

They can own a car if they like, my question was where in the M50 is public transport not an option. I didn't say a good option, just an option.

mikhail · 17-02-2015 6:27pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Where inside the M50 can you not use public transport?

This argument is always made by those it wouldn't affect.

I could take public transport to work. I used to. It took me almost exactly 2 hours door to door (15 mins walk + 40 minute train + 20 minutes walk + 20 minute bus + 15 minute walk = 1 hr 50 mins plus waiting times, assuming the train isn't broken, which it is depressingly often). That's each way - four hours of commuting plus 9 hours work makes mikhail something something.

The same trip is 45 minutes in the car.

I would like to move closer to work, and will when I can, but until this country gets over its love affair with semi-detached housing that's going to be impractical for plenty of people.

_Kaiser_ · 17-02-2015 6:27pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The obvious, and difficult, solution to that problem is a radical improvement in public transport, not sending more cars onto the M50.

EXCEPT that public transport - much like renting actually - is seen as the choice for those with no better options.

Plus the government makes far too much from motorists from their cut of fuel charges, tolls, VRT, Insurance, Motor Tax, fines etc to ever take such a move seriously - as well as the fact that the Dail is full of local country TDs who already think the "feckin Dubs" get everything! Can't see them signing off on a massive investment plan for CIE

_Kaiser_ · 17-02-2015 6:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

They can own a car if they like, my question was where in the M50 is public transport not an option. I didn't say a good option, just an option.

An option that isn't a good option (too infrequent, unreliable, slow etc) ISN'T an option - especially not for those who have to be at a certain place at a certain time (like work)

beauf · 17-02-2015 6:42pm

People won't switch from the car until its the least attractive option. As other have said unless you are on a very direct rail/bus route public transport will struggle with the radial layout of the city to compete with a car that can take any route. Unless of course the traffic and/or cost makes the car not viable.

Calina · 17-02-2015 8:38pm

cgcsb wrote: »

They can own a car if they like, my question was where in the M50 is public transport not an option. I didn't say a good option, just an option.

In terms of assessing public transport provision, anything which is not a good option should not even come into consideration as an option.

L1011 · 17-02-2015 9:32pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I didn't say a good option, just an option.

Rather ignoring that when it isn't a better option than driving, it isn't going to be used by anyone who can avoid it.

You can't encourage modal shift by pointing at existing crap services; or services with zero extra capacity (the Maynooth commuter line, as you did earlier).

cdebru · 17-02-2015 10:21pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Inside the M50? The likes of Crumlin / Drimnagh / Inchicore / Renelagh / Rathmines?

Those people should not own cars for themselves?

People do not feel incentivised by being punished into doing something. It is already expensive enough as it is to run a car in this country.

Eh crumlin has pretty good public transport so has Drimnagh and inchicore and Ranelagh and Rathmines in fairness, they can own a car all they want they just shouldn't bring it into the city center on a daily commuting basis.

People will not give up their cars we already see this, they will sit cursing the traffic for an hour without ever dawning on them that they are the traffic so you are going to have to pretty much force them out of their cars.

And before people jump up and down, I'm talking about a situation where you switch public spending away from more roads and bigger roads and outer ring roads because none of that will fix the problem, we need to have a total public transport plan for the entire city, not a bit here and a line there, a proper integrated plan, then we need to start building that not roads. Then you can take out the stick for those who refuse to use it.

OldMrBrennan83 · 17-02-2015 10:33pm

This post has been deleted.

beauf · 17-02-2015 10:51pm

Crumlin, Drimnagh and inchicore and Ranelagh and Rathmines...to the city centre. Isn't really going to involve the M50 changes.

cdebru · 17-02-2015 11:30pm

beauf wrote: »

Crumlin, Drimnagh and inchicore and Ranelagh and Rathmines...to the city centre. Isn't really going to involve the M50 changes.

If people from there are clogging up the roads into the city it feeds back to the M50

cdebru · 17-02-2015 11:32pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Precisely the attitude that clogs up the city and why you need the stick because the carrot alone won't work.

_Kaiser_ · 17-02-2015 11:37pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

- or standing by the side of the road/on a platform because the bus/train didn't show or was already full
- or having to stand for most/all of the way, crushed against others, while the bus/train lurches from stop to stop and then fight your way to the door before the driver takes off again
- or having to endure the inconsiderate tools blasting music from their phones/tablets
- or having to spend twice to three times as long getting to where you need to be for an increasingly absurd amount of money that offers no extra value

Nope, I'd rather sit in comfort in my car with the ability to leave when I want/need to, and even vary my route if needed to avoid accidents, traffic snarl-ups etc

_Kaiser_ · 17-02-2015 11:42pm

cdebru wrote: »

Precisely the attitude that clogs up the city and why you need the stick because the carrot alone won't work.

See my post above (#108) for why that carrot will never actually be dangled!

I mean let's be realistic - Dublin isn't THAT big and has plenty of buses (at least until they started scrapping them for no valid reason). For the 20-odd years that I relied on public transport it's ALWAYS been slow, unreliable and inefficient.

It's not like we're inventing the wheel - all we have to do is copy from the experiences of other countries, but we can't even manage that right.

And then people wonder why so many drive - because they HAVE to.. unless they're prepared to waste hours every day unnecessarily and STILL end up late a lot of the time anyway!

jim-mcdee · 18-02-2015 12:22am

The vast majority of people will never give up their car no matter how good public transport is. Has anyone taken a train lately? Last time I did there were teenagers on it shouting and screaming and drinking vodka on it, throwing the odd missile at people who looked in their direction. The train itself was an embarrassment to the nation. I have been on better ones in "third world" countries. The LUAS - Full of junkies. The busses - full of alcos. And people coughing and sneezing. Thats if they even turn up. If the government hike up the price of motoring any more to get us to use 'public transport' I just wont pay them the increase. Simple as that. I agree there is a desperate need for an outer ring road. To have to drive on the M50 to go anywhere is pure madness. Either a ring road or upgrade existing 'unofficial' ring roads, and bypass some towns they go through, eg bypass Clane, Sallins, Maynooth and you have a decent route to N2 & N3 from the west.

Idbatterim · 18-02-2015 12:53am

what about the eastern bypass as opposed to the outer ring road?

Aard · 18-02-2015 1:22am

I'd be hugely surprised if the EB goes ahead. The reservation for it would be much better used as a public transport corridor with the major trip generators of Sandyford and UCD along it.

cdebru · 18-02-2015 8:00am

jim-mcdee wrote: »

The vast majority of people will never give up their car no matter how good public transport is. Has anyone taken a train lately? Last time I did there were teenagers on it shouting and screaming and drinking vodka on it, throwing the odd missile at people who looked in their direction. The train itself was an embarrassment to the nation. I have been on better ones in "third world" countries. The LUAS - Full of junkies. The busses - full of alcos. And people coughing and sneezing. Thats if they even turn up. If the government hike up the price of motoring any more to get us to use 'public transport' I just wont pay them the increase. Simple as that. I agree there is a desperate need for an outer ring road. To have to drive on the M50 to go anywhere is pure madness. Either a ring road or upgrade existing 'unofficial' ring roads, and bypass some towns they go through, eg bypass Clane, Sallins, Maynooth and you have a decent route to N2 & N3 from the west.

No pure madness is to think you can build roads to overcome congestion, or that all the private cars can fit into the city if only the roads were wider.

Instead of investing in roads that will clog up put the money into good public transport, you cant use the stick to force people to use our current public transport because it couldn't carry them anyway which is why you need to invest in public transport then "force" people to use it.

veryangryman · 18-02-2015 9:13am

Aard wrote: »

I'd be hugely surprised if the EB goes ahead. The reservation for it would be much better used as a public transport corridor with the major trip generators of Sandyford and UCD along it.

Actually, on the subject of the Eastern Bypass, wouldn't the port tunnel need to be made toll free (or reasonable cost anyway) for the full circle M50 to be usable. E.g South-East-North traffic would never use the anticlockwise M50 otherwise.

Opens a can of worms even if they announced it today.

jim-mcdee · 18-02-2015 10:53am

cdebru wrote: »

No pure madness is to think you can build roads to overcome congestion, or that all the private cars can fit into the city if only the roads were wider.

Instead of investing in roads that will clog up put the money into good public transport, you cant use the stick to force people to use our current public transport because it couldn't carry them anyway which is why you need to invest in public transport then "force" people to use it.

Well I for one and I suspect the vast majority of car users have a strong aversion to irish 'public transport' and it would take nothing short of a fascist government to take over and force us onto public transport before most would give up their car (...eh...wait a second...). However I do think park and ride should be greatly increased. This would greatly ease congestion in the city. Such an operation would need to be 24x7.

stevedublin · 18-02-2015 11:44am

Shannon757 wrote: »

Would you ever get over 60 on the m50?

Yes

RainyDay · 18-02-2015 11:46am

cdebru wrote: »

No pure madness is to think you can build roads to overcome congestion, or that all the private cars can fit into the city if only the roads were wider.

It's a bit like buying bigger trousers to overcome obesity.

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Well I for one and I suspect the vast majority of car users have a strong aversion to irish 'public transport'

That's up to yourself of course - but don't expect the rest of us to pay the huge road infrastructure costs to accommodate your selfishness.

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 11:51am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

EXCEPT that public transport - much like renting actually - is seen as the choice for those with no better options.

Plus the government makes far too much from motorists from their cut of fuel charges, tolls, VRT, Insurance, Motor Tax, fines etc to ever take such a move seriously - as well as the fact that the Dail is full of local country TDs who already think the "feckin Dubs" get everything! Can't see them signing off on a massive investment plan for CIE

I was merely proposing a way forward as opposed to moaning about the current situation. Obviously there are certain obstructions.

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 11:53am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

An option that isn't a good option (too infrequent, unreliable, slow etc) ISN'T an option - especially not for those who have to be at a certain place at a certain time (like work)

It is an option just not the best one. You choose your car because in time and/or money it's the best option for you. The way forward is to examine why other options are so crappy and make them better.

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 11:55am

Calina wrote: »

In terms of assessing public transport provision, anything which is not a good option should not even come into consideration as an option.

That's self defeating, you need to start somewhere with public transport provision. Improving existing services is invariably the first port of call.

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 11:57am

L1011 wrote: »

Rather ignoring that when it isn't a better option than driving, it isn't going to be used by anyone who can avoid it.

Of course, which is why improvement of service is required.

L1011 wrote: »

You can't encourage modal shift by pointing at existing crap services; or services with zero extra capacity (the Maynooth commuter line, as you did earlier).

never mentioned Maynooth.

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 11:59am

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

so you are part of the problem

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 12:01pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- or standing by the side of the road/on a platform because the bus/train didn't show or was already full
- or having to stand for most/all of the way, crushed against others, while the bus/train lurches from stop to stop and then fight your way to the door before the driver takes off again
- or having to endure the inconsiderate tools blasting music from their phones/tablets
- or having to spend twice to three times as long getting to where you need to be for an increasingly absurd amount of money that offers no extra value

Nope, I'd rather sit in comfort in my car with the ability to leave when I want/need to, and even vary my route if needed to avoid accidents, traffic snarl-ups etc

he was responding the poster who said that they would chose car over faster cheaper alternatives.

Calina · 18-02-2015 12:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That's self defeating, you need to start somewhere with public transport provision. Improving existing services is invariably the first port of call.

Actually, that's a really naive statement for the simple reason that mostly, people say "okay, there's an existing option, we don't have to deal with this issue now".

Nothing happens in this country until someone's back is against the wall. If you want public transport provision in this country to improve, you don't make mealy mouthed nonsense things about "building on existing". You make it illegal for politicians to go to work using anything other than public transport.

You'll find decisions about public transport and how to build and they will come will get made a lot faster than "oh there's a bus service twice a day, that's an option" does.

Sheldons Brain · 18-02-2015 12:06pm

Public transport in Dublin doesn't even purport to compete for many journeys, if competition is defined as a journey time no more than half as much again as driving, and the disjoined policy process then laments the traffic arising from this without doing anything about it. Even on a purely financial basis this may not make sense if it then means large expenditure on roads.

Dodge · 18-02-2015 12:08pm

beauf wrote: »

Crumlin, Drimnagh and inchicore and Ranelagh and Rathmines...to the city centre. Isn't really going to involve the M50 changes.

I'd bet the majority of people from those areas (and I'm speaking from first hand experience) who work in the city centre get public transport. It's cheaper and just as quick as a car at peak times.

But if they work outside the city centre, it gets a little trickier to do with public transport

Calina · 18-02-2015 12:10pm

cgcsb wrote: »

so you are part of the problem

The problem is provision. People use private transport because provision of public transport is bad.

I used to live in Brussels. Metro every five minutes, reliable. Bus every 10 minutes, reliable.

What happened here is simple. Public transport policy has been "yerra it'll be grand" for years and years.

People drive because public transport provision in the cities is poor. Public transport provision is poor because in 15 years, we've made absolutely no effort to improve it for the city as a whole. Since I left Brussels, they reconfigured the metro system and some of the trams and are building an updated suburban RER.

Here, we've finally decided joining up the Luas lines might be a good idea, abandoned the Metro and now want to build a BRT which for Swords in particularly is already inadequate and they haven't even built it yet. This is not proactive planning, it's cold hard backs against the wall decisions we can't avoid.

Public transport costs money. I have no objection to paying extra tax money wise to support it. Putting me through a 90 minute commute twice a day and telling me "that's an option" isn't going to fix things.

In my view, if you want an improvement, you ban every TD from getting to Leinster House using anything other than Dublin Bus. The issue is that we have no great gra to make the decisions that would make public transport happen.

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 12:13pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

what about the eastern bypass as opposed to the outer ring road?

lol

in the queue for capital funding for large infrastructure projects you have:

DART Underground and associated electrification and upgrades; circa €4bn
Metro North, or some other version of; Circa €1-2.5bn
Dublin BRT; circa €0.7bn
The M20; Circa €2bn
The Galway N6 project circa €.7bn

The notion that a €2bn sop to the motor industry is possible is just false.
Such a road would cost extortionate sums of money and would be contrary to the development plans of the region which are currently seeing shrinking road capacity and shrinking amounts of parking.

_Kaiser_ · 18-02-2015 12:16pm

The problem here is that some posters are looking at this from an idealised viewpoint rather than reality, so let's deal with reality...

- Public transport is hugely inadequate in Dublin for anything more than a single vehicle A to B trip. It's been like that as long as I remember (30+ years)
- Outside Dublin this situation is exponentially worse where services are even more restricted (or non-existent)
- In the Leinster area, most jobs (particularly IT, Finance etc jobs) are in Dublin
- Rents are out of control in Dublin so people are being pushed into the surrounding counties to get a place as happened 10 years ago
- As a result, people/workers are forced to drive (which isn't cheap!) in order to be at their workplace on time every day (as required by their contracts)
- There is no political will to change this situation beyond minor tinkering because they make too much money off the motorist to jeopardise that, and because the view is that Dublin already gets everything

That last one is the most important factor and I don't see any parties offering to change that. The Greens effort was to screw up the Motor Tax situation to keep SIMI happy by incentivising people to go buy new cars
Parking restrictions, white elephants like the BRT, LUAS BXD will do nothing to change any of the points I've raised above but WILL allow the Government of the day to look as if it's doing something, and as we're all well aware, in Ireland appearances are far more important than reality.

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 12:17pm

Calina wrote: »

Actually, that's a really naive statement for the simple reason that mostly, people say "okay, there's an existing option, we don't have to deal with this issue now".

Nothing happens in this country until someone's back is against the wall. If you want public transport provision in this country to improve, you don't make mealy mouthed nonsense things about "building on existing". You make it illegal for politicians to go to work using anything other than public transport.

You'll find decisions about public transport and how to build and they will come will get made a lot faster than "oh there's a bus service twice a day, that's an option" does.

Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying. Are there existing public transport options? Yes,

Are they satisfactory?No

I'm not saying anything else, you are taking some other meaning from my words. Obviously public transport has to improve, nobody is questioning that.

Calina · 18-02-2015 12:19pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying. Are there existing public transport options? Yes,

Are they satisfactory?No

I'm not saying anything else, you are taking some other meaning from my words. Obviously public transport has to improve, nobody is questioning that.

The point - as I want you to understand - is the existence of options which are not practical options is often used as a justification for not improving those options.

If you don't understand this, then you really don't understand why Dublin is in the position it is in now.

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 12:20pm

Calina wrote: »

The problem is provision. People use private transport because provision of public transport is bad.

I used to live in Brussels. Metro every five minutes, reliable. Bus every 10 minutes, reliable.

What happened here is simple. Public transport policy has been "yerra it'll be grand" for years and years.

People drive because public transport provision in the cities is poor. Public transport provision is poor because in 15 years, we've made absolutely no effort to improve it for the city as a whole. Since I left Brussels, they reconfigured the metro system and some of the trams and are building an updated suburban RER.

Here, we've finally decided joining up the Luas lines might be a good idea, abandoned the Metro and now want to build a BRT which for Swords in particularly is already inadequate and they haven't even built it yet. This is not proactive planning, it's cold hard backs against the wall decisions we can't avoid.

Public transport costs money. I have no objection to paying extra tax money wise to support it. Putting me through a 90 minute commute twice a day and telling me "that's an option" isn't going to fix things.

In my view, if you want an improvement, you ban every TD from getting to Leinster House using anything other than Dublin Bus. The issue is that we have no great gra to make the decisions that would make public transport happen.

agreed

cgcsb · 18-02-2015 12:22pm

Calina wrote: »

If you don't understand this, then you really don't understand why Dublin is in the position it is in now.

It's in the position it is now for several reasons:

no independence on spending matters from the rest of the country

FF policies of increasing current spending on welfare, public service etc. while reducing taxes and ignoring the infrastructural deficit, which is not politically attractive to tackle.

Calina · 18-02-2015 12:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's in the position it is now for several reasons:

no independence on spending matters from the rest of the country

FF policies of increasing current spending on welfare, public service etc. while reducing taxes and ignoring the infrastructural deficit, which is not politically attractive to tackle.

And refusing to fix things until they are so far the other side of broken that they are met coming the other day.

And ultimately this issue is not unique to Dublin.

Celly Smunt · 18-02-2015 12:37pm

There should have been a Dublin train loop introduced years and years ago connecting the whole lot of Dublin rather than scattered linear routes all over the county.

There has been far too much reliance put on the incompetent money pit that is Dublin bus forcing people to drive. We have the linear links bringing people into the city now if they just implement an s-bahn like system loop in Dublin,instead of messing around with the M50 for the next god knows how long we might have a functioning infrastructure.

Too much common sense I suppose,therefore I cant see that happening.

Macy0161 · 18-02-2015 1:07pm

As always when these threads come up, I'm going to say again about the lack of park and rides around the outside of the city.

I'll just go with an IMBY kinda post, as this is where I am most familar with...
- There are limited Park and Ride facilities on the way in the N11 (albeit much better than some routes). In the case of the likes of Carrickmines (not sure about other Luas and Dart stations), specifically limited to use by Luas customers. It's also too far up the M50 to really be attractive to those coming up the N11 (wrong side of the M50/ M11 merge when going home). The Sandyford/ Stillorgan park and rides aren't really viable options.
- There is no official option to park up and get a bus the whole way from Wicklow town up (there is demand, judging by the likes of the Ashford House having to introduce parking controls). If you want to bus or cycle into town after driving a certain distance, then you are relying on restricted, unsecure on street parking, which isn't always available.
- There are a couple of Dart park and rides - Greystones is a great facility, but let down by the frequency of the darts that far out. Shankill, has more frequent darts, but is pay and display. The payment goes a long way towards offsetting the savings of a taxsaver.

Part of the carrot should be to vastly increase the number of Park and Ride facilities, ideally in locations that can be utilised for bus, rail and cycling. I think the numbers parking, and the parking mayhem around many outer stations show there is actually demand for Public Transport into the city. Also, any parking charges should be allowed to be rolled into taxsaver tickets.

I do try and park up and cycle in a few times a week (less successfully since Christmas), but tbh, it's only that I don't give a crap about my current car that I'm comfortable leaving it on the side of the road.

cdebru · 18-02-2015 1:21pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The problem here is that some posters are looking at this from an idealised viewpoint rather than reality, so let's deal with reality...

- Public transport is hugely inadequate in Dublin for anything more than a single vehicle A to B trip. It's been like that as long as I remember (30+ years)
- Outside Dublin this situation is exponentially worse where services are even more restricted (or non-existent)
- In the Leinster area, most jobs (particularly IT, Finance etc jobs) are in Dublin
- Rents are out of control in Dublin so people are being pushed into the surrounding counties to get a place as happened 10 years ago
- As a result, people/workers are forced to drive (which isn't cheap!) in order to be at their workplace on time every day (as required by their contracts)
- There is no political will to change this situation beyond minor tinkering because they make too much money off the motorist to jeopardise that, and because the view is that Dublin already gets everything

That last one is the most important factor and I don't see any parties offering to change that. The Greens effort was to screw up the Motor Tax situation to keep SIMI happy by incentivising people to go buy new cars
Parking restrictions, white elephants like the BRT, LUAS BXD will do nothing to change any of the points I've raised above but WILL allow the Government of the day to look as if it's doing something, and as we're all well aware, in Ireland appearances are far more important than reality.

The problem here is that some people think that the only solution is to build more roads, public transport in Dublin is disjointed and underfunded, the solution is instead of building more roads invest in public transport, real properly funded well planned out public transport. I haven't seen anyone here say we have a great public transport system if only people would use it, everyone excepts we don't, so pointless pointing to the current transport system as an excuse for building more roads we did that and guess what the new roads filled up again, time to stop doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.
People sitting in their cars may not like it but the truth is you can't build roads to overcome congestion it doesn't work all it does is encourage more people to drive and the roads fill up and you are back to square one.

jim-mcdee · 18-02-2015 2:11pm

Motor tax and vat more than cover road maintenance so that is an uneducated silly argument. Another silly argument is that building / widening roads is not a solution to congestion. What school of logic is being employed there? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. 50 cars per km on one road. Build bypass. now 25 cars per km on each road = congestion alleviated. Really guys pull your head out of your cavity. One thing which I would totally support which even the evergreens miss, I would totally support a mandatory cycle lane on every new road, even motorway.

Macy0161 · 18-02-2015 2:19pm

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Motor tax and vat more than cover road maintenance so that is an uneducated silly argument. Another silly argument is that building / widening roads is not a solution to congestion. What school of logic is being employed there? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. 50 cars per km on one road. Build bypass. now 25 cars per km on each road = congestion alleviated.

Congestion is alleviated in the short term. It doesn't last. The evidence is the basis for this thread. We have a widened M50, with "freeflow" slips on the major interchanges. Now the economy is picking up, we're back to square one of ridiculous journey times on it.

Irish Steve · 18-02-2015 2:47pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Congestion is alleviated in the short term. It doesn't last. The evidence is the basis for this thread. We have a widened M50, with "freeflow" slips on the major interchanges. Now the economy is picking up, we're back to square one of ridiculous journey times on it.

if you think the M50 is really freeflow, think again, there are still way too many bottlenecks either at the junctions themselves, or very close to them, which then spill back to affect the junctions. Liffey Valley is still a nightmare, made worse by having bus lanes in the junction, and then the exit into the shopping area so close to the main M50 intersection. Red Cow is slightly better than it used to be, but still very much not free flowing, there are just too many changes in direction and level for it to be free flowing,

The problem with the 50 was and is the lack of foresight, and the manner in which buildings were put so close to the junctions, preventing a proper junction structure.

There are also fundamental issues with the design of some of the slips that mean it's impossible to get on to the 50 at a safe speed because the curve to descend to carriageway level is too sharp for a sensible speed, and the distance then available to accelerate is too short. That causes all manner of issues for both the people joining and the people already on the road. The original thought that sparked this thread, variable speed limits at peak periods would help resolve this issue considerably, as it would make joining a lot safer.

And yes, the 50 would flow a lot better if it was used correctly, but that's not going to happen any time soon, there's never been any sensible enforcement of anything on that road, so anything goes, with the resulting accidents on most days, and without enforcement, variable speed limits won't work either, as it doesn't take many people to ignore it to render the concept unworkable.

jim-mcdee · 18-02-2015 2:48pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Congestion is alleviated in the short term. It doesn't last. The evidence is the basis for this thread. We have a widened M50, with "freeflow" slips on the major interchanges. Now the economy is picking up, we're back to square one of ridiculous journey times on it.

Yes, which is why work on an outter ring should have already started. Though I dont think the M50 is that bad actually. Try driving the m25 near london, on a friday afternoon. Then drive the m50 on a friday afternoon. no comparison. You will get held up for what 10-15 mins on a friday afternoon. so what. It will be much worse in 10 years though so better get building that bypass and heavily investing in traffic management such as smart traffic lights, more cops on traffic duty, people issued tickets for stuff that upsets the flow of traffic such as tailgating, lane hogging, multiple lane changes for exits, cutting in at last second for exits etc.

M50 to be made even more unbearable

Comments