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Dental treatment,Rip off Ireland

2»

Comments

  • #32
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    davo10 wrote: »
    Hmmm, so let me see, a patient from another country walks in to a clinic asks for 4 fillings, a root canal, a crown, scale and polish, offers to pay cash and the dentists knows he/she will not hear from them again. I'm surprised it was only 30% cheaper.

    It was 70% cheaper


  • #33
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    It was 70% cheaper

    Sorry Ciaran, misread the post, great saving but it would be a long and costly way to go specifically for dental treatment, great holiday though.


  • #34
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    davo10 wrote: »
    Sorry Ciaran, misread the post, great saving but it would be a long and costly way to go specifically for dental treatment, great holiday though.
    Its a 2 hour flight with Ryanair to Nice, cost me 60 quid return.

    Why pay extortionate rates to the Irish dentist cartel when you can get a free luxury holiday into the bargain and still save hundreds and hundreds of euro?


  • #35
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Its a 2 hour flight with Ryanair to Nice, cost me 60 quid return.

    Why pay extortionate rates to the Irish dentist cartel when you can get a free luxury holiday into the bargain and still save hundreds and hundreds of euro?

    If it was a cartel all prices would be the same yet Trixie posted about the "massive discrepancy in prices". Can you show me two clinics with exactly the same prices (not from the same chain like Smiles obviously) to back up your cartel claim?.

    Ciaran how much was the treatment here, how much in France?, was the treatment here expensive and could you have got it cheaper?, was the treatment there very cheap?, did you stay in a hotel?, did you eat?, what will you do if you have problems with the root canal or crown in a couple of years time?, will you get another flight back to have it checked?, will that be €60?


  • #36
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    davo10 wrote: »
    If it was a cartel all prices would be the same yet Trixie posted about the "massive discrepancy in prices". Can you show me two clinics with exactly the same prices (not from the same chain like Smiles obviously) to back up your cartel claim?.

    Ciaran how much was the treatment here, how much in France?, was the treatment here expensive and could you have got it cheaper?, was the treatment there very cheap?, did you stay in a hotel?, did you eat?, what will you do if you have problems with the root canal or crown in a couple of years time?, will you get another flight back to have it checked?, will that be €60?
    You sound pretty desperate.

    A filling in France costs 19 euro. It costs 70 here. Thats the bottom line. People should not be expected to pay such giant premiums for the 'priviledge' of getting the treatment done in some suburban dentist in Ireland.

    Im in a position to take my scheduled dentist visits in France, so I will from now on. And the dentists, like the one my mother works for, will continue to watch their patient levels go through the floor and teeter on the brink of going bust.


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  • #37
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    You sound pretty desperate.

    A filling in France costs 19 euro. It costs 70 here. Thats the bottom line. People should not be expected to pay such giant premiums for the 'priviledge' of getting the treatment done in some suburban dentist in Ireland.

    Im in a position to take my scheduled dentist visits in France, so I will from now on. And the dentists, like the one my mother works for, will continue to watch their patient levels go through the floor and teeter on the brink of going bust.

    I'm not desperate at all, they are after all your teeth you're posting about. As I suspected the clinic in France was cheap, €19 for a filling? I have never seen a website offering that price, not even in Hungary or Bulgaria.

    This is a pretty good study, it was carried out is 2005 but showed the mean cost of an amalgam filling in France was €45.47 I suspect it has increased since.
    http://www.contrangolo.it/documenti/articolo%20su%20odontoiatria%20europea.pdf

    You can get fillings done very cheaply in the UK but they are subsidized by the NHS and you have to be resident in the UK. Here you used to be able to get fillings free on the med card and I do not think there is any better value than free anywhere in the world. if the clinic your mum works for could make a profit on a €19 filling I am sure they would but in this country and most others that would be impossible so it looks like your mum will unfortunately be joining the ranks of the unemployed shortly, maybe she can get a job in the Riviera but the wage there will be lower lost likely.

    Give us the breakdown on the rest of the treatment and the quotation you were given here seen as you have made a big deal of it, also I'd appreciate a look at their website price list you could PM it to me.

    Still no evidence on the cartel.


  • #38
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    trixie_belle12 wrote: »
    I find your tone quite aggressive to be honest.
    Reading "tone" into someone else's internet post is not usually a good idea :)


  • #39
    trixie_belle12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭trixie_belle12


    recedite wrote: »
    Reading "tone" into someone else's internet post is not usually a good idea :)

    Not a good idea for who? I think it's pretty evident in this case actually!:)


  • #40
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    davo10 wrote: »
    This is a pretty good study, it was carried out is 2005 but showed the mean cost of an amalgam filling in France was €45.47 I suspect it has increased since.
    http://www.contrangolo.it/documenti/articolo%20su%20odontoiatria%20europea.pdf
    It would seem that the 19 quid I paid was for 'basic tooth decay treatment' not sure what the difference is there.

    Your report shows four private independent dentists. A filling from a dentist within the French health insurance system (most of them) costs within a range of fixed prices between 30-60 quid, depending on the tooth/type I guess. You can claim 70% of that back if you qualify for a French medical card (or possibly via an EHIC card if its urgent treatment). You pay the whole lot yourself if not.

    A consultation is fixed at 21 euro. A scale is 23. An extraction is 34. (Im pretty sure my root canal was 80 - dont quote me on that one).

    Crowns/brodges and the like are not subject to fixed prices.


  • #41
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    CiaranC wrote: »
    It would seem that the 19 quid I paid was for 'basic tooth decay treatment' not sure what the difference is there.

    Your report shows four private independent dentists. A filling from a dentist within the French health insurance system (most of them) costs within a range of fixed prices between 30-60 quid, depending on the tooth/type I guess. You can claim 70% of that back if you qualify for a French medical card (or possibly via an EHIC card if its urgent treatment). You pay the whole lot yourself if not.

    A consultation is fixed at 21 euro. A scale is 23. An extraction is 34. (Im pretty sure my root canal was 80 - dont quote me on that one).

    Crowns/brodges and the like are not subject to fixed prices.

    Ah, so in common with the OP and trixie, the comparison you made when you used phrases like "extortionate", "cartel", "bust" etc are not quite as accurate as you led us to believe.


    "basic tooth decay treatment" as distinct from a filling (which you quoted as a separate price) refers to either a filling in a basic/primary/deciduous/baby tooth or simple removal of pit and fissure caries in an adult tooth, this is then usually filled with a white resin filling, we call these fissure sealants and they usually cost around €20 per tooth, whether you pay cash or card.

    The scheme whereby prices are set by the French Health/Social Ministry is a subsidized scheme similar to what our PRSI and medical schemes were, except you paid less here than in France both for treatment and in employee contributions. If you were qualified under the PRSI scheme, pre December 31st 2009, an examination was FREE, a scaling was FREE, a filling averaged €40 - €60, an extraction was €25. Under the med card scheme it was even better, everything was free except cosmetic treatments and molar root canals. These schemes were effectively withdrawn by the previous Government so if you want to compare prices under a French Health Insurance scheme, compare with the PRSI/Med card schemes.

    Also, french dentists receive an additional fee per item from the scheme which "tops up" the amount they get paid from the patient. Like in the UK, many french dentists are opting out of this scheme and in some parts on the country it can be difficult to find a participating dentist.

    While the French health system is the envy of many, they also pay a high levi on their income for this.

    Lastly, Ciaran, on average a crown here costs between €500 and €800, did you really get yours for €150 - € 240 ?, again even the cheapest clinics in Eastern Europe do not provide treatment as cheap as this. Lastly, I googled 7 private clinics in Nice, none provide treatment at anywhere near the prices you posted above, and after all, dentists in ireland are private clinicians.


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  • #42
    Northern Monkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭Northern Monkey


    How much do you charge for the above treatments Davo? And how does it compare to the average?

    Let's compare apples with apples instead of this if you had a medical card, before December 2009 talk.

    How much would a filling cost from a regular dentist in your practice versus one from a dentist in the north?


  • #43
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Northern Monkey wrote: »
    How much do you charge for the above treatments Davo? And how does it compare to the average?

    Let's compare apples with apples instead of this if you had a medical card, before December 2009 talk.

    How much would a filling cost from a regular dentist in your practice versus one from a dentist in the north?

    I am delighted to answer this question, we have 4 large signs in our clinic with price comparisons for treatments between our clinic and three other clinics in the North offering specialist and general dental services. I can pm you the three northern clInics if you wish.

    Exam €30,
    Scale and polish with Hygienist €50, but reduced to €40 if done at same time as exam.
    Fillings €40 - €70 for amalgam.
    White filling €70 - €90 (back teeth)
    Implant assessment €100
    Implant including, exam, x-rays, premium implant, zirconium/ titanium abutment and bonded or procera crown €2400.

    All three northern clinics where a qualified specialist carries out treatment charge the same or more.


  • #44
    Northern Monkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭Northern Monkey


    davo10 wrote: »
    I am delighted to answer this question, we have 4 large signs in our clinic with price comparisons for treatments between our clinic and three other clinics in the North offering specialist and general dental services. I can pm you the three northern clInics if you wish.

    Exam €30,
    Scale and polish with Hygienist €50, but reduced to €40 if done at same time as exam.
    Fillings €40 - €70 for amalgam.
    White filling €70 - €90 (back teeth)
    Implant assessment €100
    Implant including, exam, x-rays, premium implant, zirconium/ titanium abutment and bonded or procera crown €2400.

    All three northern clinics where a qualified specialist carries out treatment charge the same or more.

    I wouldn't have a clue about the price of implants, but to me the rest of those prices seem reasonable enough. Certainly wouldn't be a big enough void to make me go up north.


  • #45
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    Just thought I would input here a little, Davo10 has covered most of the issues but I would like to point out that there is also a quality variable in this. For instance somebody mentioned a Bio Horizon implant. This is the cheapest system out there for the dentist to buy and it has surface characteristics and manufacturing tolerances to match its low price. The more expensive implant may be better value for the quality.

    As for crowns, I can get a crown from a lab for 40 euro or a better one for 10 times that. It may infact be the cheaper crown that is the rip off as the dentist pockets more of your money. High quality crowns look better and fit better, last longer etc. (BTW a gold crown is cheaper than a ceramic or metal ceramic crown)

    Root canals are totally dependant on who does them, a cheap root canal done quickly would be far more likely to fail than a more expensive one that took time and effort to do.

    Items of dental work are not directly comparable because at the end of the day its not a item that you are paying for but a service. A specialist periodontist will charge more to threat the OP as the OP's problems are beyond what his regular dentist can do successfully. If the OP wishes to bring his dental problems down to euros and cents then he is not accepting the scale of his problems, and wasting money in NI on treatment that is unlikely to work is the rip off.

    Cost and Value are not the same thing.


  • #46
    Zardoz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,877 ✭✭✭Zardoz


    Isaias Uneven Superstar wrote: »

    Root canals are totally dependant on who does them, a cheap root canal done quickly would be far more likely to fail than a more expensive one that took time and effort to do.
    I need to get a root canal and have been shopping around locally.
    I've found almost no difference in the price from the Irish endontists.
    800 euro for less than 2 hours work in my eyes is extortion.
    I've found a few foreign dentists in Cork that will do the procedure for less than 300 euro,the length of the procedure is the same.
    I know these endontists are specialists and have extra qualifications but 400 euro would be more than enough considering there are almost no raw materials .

    I have spent longer in college than most of them ,and have lots of qualifications in the tech industry and work in a state of the art lab with equipment worth millions of euro yet the company only charge clients 900 euro a day for my services.(I get paid a fraction of that btw)
    These guys are charging that for 2 hours ,no justification for that.Rip off .


  • #47
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    An endodontist has spent about 10 years in college (5 undergrad, 3-5 postgrad), and the extra your paying for is their attention to detail and experience. Also they have demonstrated the innate ability to do this job which is not something that can be taught to just anyone. They will have been in the top 1% of leaving certs, then in the top 10% of their graduating class in dentistry, so were talking about some seriously talented people.

    Your making the classic error of mistaking what they charge you and the amount they earn. The expenses (staff, insurance, indemnity, materials, equipment, utilities etc. etc.) they have will run to about 60% of income, so on that 800 euro gross the net is 320 euro for three hours (there is time you not there in set up, record keeping, letter writing, disinfection of your instruments etc so more like 3 hours), after tax that's around 160 euro, that 54 euro an hour. A good wage but somebody in a highly technical, highly skilled speciality drilling holes in your teeth and taking out nerves, who is PERSONALLY liable for their mistakes needs to be paid well for the effort. Running a business and employing people also carries risk and cost, how much does the owner of your lab get paid? Would you consider going out on your own and taking the risk of the loans and lease? How much would you want to be paid for taking on that responsibility?

    If you don't want to pay that much go elsewhere, there is plenty of choice. However your are going to get what you pay for. Its not the endodontist fault they are good and can work quickly...would you prefer it took them longer? Oh and dont thing they spend 8 hours a day earning that much, if the endodontist is earning for 4 hours that's good going.

    If there is one thing endodontist love its people getting bad root canals, cause if somebody else has ballsed it up you will have to go to them cause only they can fix the mess. Buy cheap and buy twice. Cost and value are not the same thing.

    Havent we have been through all this before? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68173223, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63212821.


  • #48
    sandin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    Zardoz wrote: »
    I need to get a root canal and have been shopping around locally.
    I've found almost no difference in the price from the Irish endontists.
    800 euro for less than 2 hours work in my eyes is extortion.
    I've found a few foreign dentists in Cork that will do the procedure for less than 300 euro,the length of the procedure is the same.
    I know these endontists are specialists and have extra qualifications but 400 euro would be more than enough considering there are almost no raw materials .

    I have spent longer in college than most of them ,and have lots of qualifications in the tech industry and work in a state of the art lab with equipment worth millions of euro yet the company only charge clients 900 euro a day for my services.(I get paid a fraction of that btw)
    These guys are charging that for 2 hours ,no justification for that.Rip off .

    If you require an Endontist, then you are probably talking about a root canal of the wisdom tooth - don't even attempt to go to anybody other than an endontist for this job.

    If its a normal root canal, then you don't need the expertise of an endontist in the same way you don't need a heart surgeon for a broken wrist.


  • #49
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    I'm so glad I previously contacted the EU/IMF to request they force the Irish Gov't into regulating Dental prices here. What goes around comes around.


  • #50
    Zardoz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,877 ✭✭✭Zardoz


    sandin wrote: »
    If you require an Endontist, then you are probably talking about a root canal of the wisdom tooth - don't even attempt to go to anybody other than an endontist for this job.

    If its a normal root canal, then you don't need the expertise of an endontist in the same way you don't need a heart surgeon for a broken wrist.
    Are you sure of that as my dentist referred me to an Endontist ?
    I previously went to an Endontist for a root canal,lower molar,third tooth from back.
    The current problem tooth is the same tooth ,just on the right hand side as opposed to the left.

    With regard to dental costs ,fitzgeme,I dont have an issue with general dental costs;fillings,extraction,exam, etc.
    I happily pay them as my dentist is extremely thorough,and has my best interests in mind.
    Health is wealth.

    Its the specialists whose costs I believe are inflated.
    800 euro is alot of money for 3 hours work and I do not believe that 60% of that cost is expenses.
    Perhaps on a smaller cheaper procedure the cost base % is higher but I cannot fathom how it can be so high for a root canal.
    Whilst I do have dental cover on my health policy which covers me for 50% back up to a max of 300 euro per year ,I still think 800 euro is too much .


  • #51
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    Zardoz wrote: »
    800 euro is alot of money for 3 hours work and I do not believe that 60% of that cost is expenses.
    Perhaps on a smaller cheaper procedure the cost base % is higher but I cannot fathom how it can be so high for a root canal.

    Why not?, smaller jobs are a lot quicker. A general dentist could do 12 fillings at 80 each in 3 hours and make more money. Again not wanting to pay and a rip off are two different things. I know endodontists who charge nearly double what you have been quoted. They can do this because they are the best, and some people are willing to pay for the best.


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  • #52
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    Anyone needing to see the massive price difference between Ireland and abroad, turn on the Pat Kenny show on the radio now. Some dental prices are EUR450 abroad vs EUR700 here.


  • #53
    lochderg
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭lochderg


    why is it that when we get a report from the OECD regarding consultants' pay or a report on medicine costs or dental care expenses we immediately hear an articulate spokeman on the radio refuting all the facts and they are not pressed by the interviewer?(see Pat Kenny with consultant on Monday)- we get a comprehensive professional report and these people just simply say 'oh no-that's all wrong-this is how it is' and it's left at that-where are all the incisive tenacious journalists?


  • #54
    Cilar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 175 ✭✭Cilar


    davo10 wrote: »
    While the French health system is the envy of many, they also pay a high levi on their income for this.

    Tax burden in Ireland is now equivalent to the one in France. Except that in France, the money goes to health system, and public transportation, while it goes to fix problems created by bankers in Ireland


  • #55
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Cilar wrote: »
    Tax burden in Ireland is now equivalent to the one in France. Except that in France, the money goes to health system, and public transportation, while it goes to fix problems created by bankers in Ireland

    If memory serves me right, the health insurance levy is 10.75% of gross income for every resident in Germany (including pensioners), and just under 10% in France. If our Government announced that PRSI was going up to that level today, there would be outrage.

    (My figures for France/Germany could be wrong now, so I'm happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgable)


  • #56
    countrynosebag
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭countrynosebag


    shay
    i will be doing that sort of check up soon, always having infections, thrush (asthma sprays and copd sprays side effects)
    did your dentist recommend any preventions or say what you could have done to help this....?
    There seems to be a lot of treatment and pricing but surely prevention is better than cure?
    good luck with your treatment. i tried to answer earlier but got muddled, sorry, not tutored in computer at my age.


  • #57
    delahuntv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭delahuntv


    lochderg wrote: »
    why is it that when we get a report from the OECD regarding consultants' pay or a report on medicine costs or dental care expenses we immediately hear an articulate spokeman on the radio refuting all the facts and they are not pressed by the interviewer?(see Pat Kenny with consultant on Monday)- we get a comprehensive professional report and these people just simply say 'oh no-that's all wrong-this is how it is' and it's left at that-where are all the incisive tenacious journalists?

    Did you read the OECD report and its comments that very specifically say that exact comparisons cannot be made due to differring standrds in different countries as to what level of consultant is included in the payscale?

    Obviously not!

    Same goes for tabloid style reporters who only want a hysterical headline. The more intelligent medical journalists were able to read the OECD notes at the end of the report and reported more correctly.

    But sure, why let facts get in the way of a hysterical headline?


  • #58
    lochderg
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭lochderg


    Actually I didn't read it & I'll rectify that however-keep tabloid reporters a million miles away as far as I'm concerned-market driven drivel is the last thing we need-when I think about it-you're correct -prescrition drugs ARE cheaper in Ireland -I just needed you to cast a light where there is darkness-and if it's down to ireland being expensive then why do unions always get a rough time when maintaining a decent standard of living for their members? -don't tell me -it's the market!


  • #59
    Oral Surgeon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭Oral Surgeon


    lochderg wrote: »
    Actually I didn't read it & I'll rectify that however-keep tabloid reporters a million miles away as far as I'm concerned-market driven drivel is the last thing we need-when I think about it-you're correct -prescrition drugs ARE cheaper in Ireland -I just needed you to cast a light where there is darkness-and if it's down to ireland being expensive then why do unions always get a rough time when maintaining a decent standard of living for their members? -don't tell me -it's the market!


    Yes it's the market


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