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Number of commissioners

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    O'Morris wrote: »
    Why is it not an answer? Why can do what the Norwegians are doing? They have as much access to EU markets as we do and yet they don't have to sacrifice any of their independence.
    Lol.
    You know theres absolutely no support for that.
    Such nonsense.

    I was prepared to listen to you 'till you came out with that nonsense.


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    #33
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Then wikipedia is wrong
    Amended Treaty on European Union wrote:
    As from 1 November 2014, the Commission shall consist of a number of
    members, including its President and the High Representative of the Union for
    Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, corresponding to two thirds of the number of
    Member States, unless the European Council, acting unanimously, decides to
    alter this number.
    The members of the Commission shall be chosen from among the nationals of the
    Member States on the basis of a system of strictly equal rotation between the
    Member States, reflecting the demographic and geographical range of all the
    Member States. This system shall be established unanimously by the European
    Council in accordance with Article 244 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the
    European Union

    Article 17 subsection 5
    http://www.iiea.com/images/managed/publications_attachments/TEU_2008.pdf
    Amended Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union wrote:
    Article 244
    In accordance with Article 17(5) of the Treaty on European Union, the members of the
    Commission shall be chosen on the basis of a system of rotation established unanimously by
    the European Council and on the basis of the following principles:
    (a) Member States shall be treated on a strictly equal footing as regards determination of
    the sequence of, and the time spent by, their nationals as members of the
    Commission; consequently, the difference between the total number of terms of office
    held by nationals of any given pair of Member States may never be more than one;
    (b) subject to point (a), each successive Commission shall be so composed as to reflect
    satisfactorily the demographic and geographical range of all the Member States.


    http://www.iiea.com/images/managed/publications_attachments/TFEU_2008.pdf


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    O'Morris wrote: »
    And if the quote from that wikipedia article is correct, they could still possibly have two commissioners.

    Just take a look at what it says on wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu_commission#Future_of_the_Commission
    "The representation would be rotated equally between all states and no state would have more than two in any single Commission."
    That clearly refers to states not being allowed to have more than two commissioners in a single commission, not just in in subsequent terms.

    It's possible wikipedia have got it wrong but I don't think so. I remember seeing mention of this before. Can someone confirm if the wording in the wikipedia article is accurate or if differs much from what's in the treaty?
    Do you see the edit button there beside that quote?

    Log in there lad and change that to 10 commissioners-it still wouldn't make it true.

    Anyone can edit wikipedia.


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    #35
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    O'Morris wrote: »
    And if the quote from that wikipedia article is correct, they could still possibly have two commissioners.

    Just take a look at what it says on wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu_commission#Future_of_the_Commission
    "The representation would be rotated equally between all states and no state would have more than two in any single Commission."
    That clearly refers to states not being allowed to have more than two commissioners in a single commission, not just in in subsequent terms.

    It's possible wikipedia have got it wrong but I don't think so. I remember seeing mention of this before. Can someone confirm if the wording in the wikipedia article is accurate or if differs much from what's in the treaty?

    This is what's in Lisbon:
    (a) Member States shall be treated on a strictly equal footing as regards determination of the sequence of, and the time spent by, their nationals as members of the Commission; consequently, the difference between the total number of terms of office held by nationals of any given pair of Member States may never be more than one;
    (b) subject to point (a), each successive Commission shall be so composed as to reflect satisfactorily the demographic and geographical range of all the Member States.

    A "strictly equal footing as regards determination of the sequence of, and the time spent by, their nationals as members of the Commission" would suggest to me that it is impossible for a member state to have 2 Commissioners at any point, unless that then happened for everyone.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #36
    BMH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 804 ✭✭✭BMH


    How odd, it's changed to "one".


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    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    BMH wrote: »
    How odd, it's changed to "one".
    heh!

    see what I mean :D

    Also It wouldn't at all surprise me if someone had it at 2 thinking we wouldn't know about the self editing of wikipedia and they could then use it at least for a while to spread mis information...

    *resists finger pointing at anyone (with several posts in this thread) in particular* :rolleyes:

    Responsible carers of wikipedia do tend to clean up malicious activity like that fairly quickly :)


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    #38
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    This is what's in Lisbon:

    A "strictly equal footing as regards determination of the sequence of, and the time spent by, their nationals as members of the Commission" would suggest to me that it is impossible for a member state to have 2 Commissioners at any point, unless that then happened for everyone.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Actually, maybe I'm tired but it might just be possible....

    18 countries have a commissioner... 9 do not...
    1 term.........................................0 terms

    second 5 year period.
    the 9 with 0 have to have a commissioner so that they have 1... but say one has 2 commissioners... so 10 countries leave the commission that term.

    now we have 8 countries on 2 terms... their second in a row.
    8 countries on 1 newly entered, and 1 that gets 2 this turn on 2 also. 18 total commissioners, but 17 countries.

    equal rotation... and no country more than 1 ahead of the others... The guys who took the 2 will have to wait until every other country has at least 2 terms and some will have 3 ... 10 years...

    ?????????????? Possible???????

    Ix.


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    #39
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    So, before the results are announced and this drifts into oblivion.

    My comment is correct? In theory there could be 2 commissioners for any country including Ireland? Although we'd all accept that would be unlikely to happen since what country would give up their right for 10 years in a row? I think Scofflaw implicitly suggested the same?

    Considering the amount of dis-information around, someone needs to correct the wikipedia article back to it's original state?

    Ix


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    In theory ixtlan 10 countries could give up their right and one country could rotate the opportunity to have all 18 commissioners.

    I think whether you talk of that or a country having two-you'd be in the realm of fantasy so it's irrelevant speculation :)

    The important point is the mis information that was being spread that rejecting lisbon meant keeping your commissioner permanently.
    It did not.


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    #41
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    In theory ixtlan 10 countries could give up their right and one country could rotate the opportunity to have all 18 commissioners.

    I think whether you talk of that or a country having two-you'd be in the realm of fantasy so it's irrelevant speculation :)

    The important point is the mis information that was being spread that rejecting lisbon meant keeping your commissioner permanently.
    It did not.

    No, that could not happen. Quote: the difference between the total number of terms of office held by nationals of any given pair of Member States may never be more than one;

    So one or more countries could have 2, as long as they gave up their rights for 10 more years. They could not have 3 because of the maximum difference requirement. Also no one could have 2 in the first term.

    I know this is a semantic argument, but the question was asked, and we should be in a position to say, yes, this is the rule. Obviously for whatever reason someone wanted it this way. I know it makes it harder to explain, but I guess that's how international treaties work out. Also I'm uncomfortable knowing that Wikipedia has been broken by us...

    Ix


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ixtlan wrote: »
    No, that could not happen. Quote: the difference between the total number of terms of office held by nationals of any given pair of Member States may never be more than one;

    So one or more countries could have 2, as long as they gave up their rights for 10 more years. They could not have 3 because of the maximum difference requirement. Also no one could have 2 in the first term.

    I know this is a semantic argument, but the question was asked, and we should be in a position to say, yes, this is the rule. Obviously for whatever reason someone wanted it this way. I know it makes it harder to explain, but I guess that's how international treaties work out. Also I'm uncomfortable knowing that Wikipedia has been broken by us...

    Ix
    Thats "terms of office" you've quoted ixtlan not the number of commissioners-meaning not more than 1 term of 5 years.
    So in theory what Isaid and what you said could happen if all agreed it was fair (and thought it was fair because well some countries think it's a hassle to have a commissioner and others don't so it's fair that those that don't have more of them)

    Regardless it's not just semantics,it's fantasy :)


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    #43
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thats "terms of office" you've quoted ixtlan not the number of commissioners-meaning not more than 1 term of 5 years.
    So in theory what Isaid and what you said could happen if all agreed it was fair (and thought it was fair because well some countries think it's a hassle to have a commissioner and others don't so it's fair that those that don't have more of them)

    Regardless it's not just semantics,it's fantasy :)

    Hi again, Sorry to be contrary. I may indeed be wrong, but I remain unconvinced.

    I agree it's terms of office, but I've corrected my example and it seems logical to me. A country could have 2 commissioners in one term, as long as their number of terms at that point in time is not more than one more than all other countries. This scenario could indeed happen in for example the second term... A country which at that point had not had a term in the first commission could have 2 commissioners, and this would not breach the rules.

    I could be wrong because maybe it would be difficult to maintain the rule going forward, but it probably would work?

    So, unlikely, but perhaps not fantasy?

    Ix.


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    #44
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thats "terms of office" you've quoted ixtlan not the number of commissioners-meaning not more than 1 term of 5 years.


    Exactly. I was about to make that point myself.

    So where in the Lisbon treaty does it say that a country can only have one commissioner in each single commission?

    Also, where does it say that that the commission should be limited to 18 members? I assumed that all this was laid out explicitly in the treaty.


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    #45
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    O'Morris wrote: »
    Exactly. I was about to make that point myself.

    So where in the Lisbon treaty does it say that a country can only have one commissioner in each single commission?

    Also, where does it say that that the commission should be limited to 18 members? I assumed that all this was laid out explicitly in the treaty.

    This is looking somewhat academic with the results, but anyhow, the 18 is specified by the requirement for 2/3 of the member states, which is 18.

    Ix


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