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Top 3 Reasons to Vote YES or NO

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    #32
    Duffman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭Duffman


    Jimkel wrote: »
    ah Yes and look how effective the UN have been in Palestine:rolleyes: Somethings rotten in Europe. Our gov has already been squeezing the Irish workers out of Dublin, While banks and gov agencies have been handing out loans and grants to foreign workers to get homes and taxi plates etc while many of my Irish friends with BA degrees are unemployed, And if we complain?? we are branded racists. I am not a racist but I believe that charity starts at home.

    I know what you mean. Foreign workers coming over here, taking our jobs, taking our women. It's all foreigners though. Oh, and I'm not racist.

    :rolleyes:


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    #33
    Jimkel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Jimkel


    3 Reasons to vote yes:

    1: Wars and invasions are a good thing for wealthy companies, and therefore a good thing for those in the pockets of lobbiests ie: our major Political parties and politicians
    (Can anyone say.... Bertie!) so since they've all been so nice lets help make them even richer and even more unnacountable.

    2: Privitise public services so we can all enjoy longer waiting lists for hospitals, and incompetance in our health service. (Remember the recent cancer test results that were sent to the wrong people, thats what happens when you privatise sectors of health care. You get = unaccountable, incompetant services from an underpaid uncaring workforce)

    3: To help cement a new class based society where your nationality effects how much you can earn in ANY EU country, us Irish will be unemployable next to the "cheaper" eastern European workers. So lets all work more hours, earn less money and hey we will be so busy we won't even notice what we've lost.

    so vote YES and lets all be part of one of the greatest history lessons in the making.


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    #34
    Jimkel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Jimkel


    Duffman wrote: »
    I know what you mean. Foreign workers coming over here, taking our jobs, taking our women. It's all foreigners though. Oh, and I'm not racist.

    :rolleyes:

    see what I mean/ When did I blame foreigners on anything? I blame the Gov on the current state of affairs here in Ireland, Irelands lost it's culture and morality and turned into pile of greedy idiots clamboring for a foot on the materiaistic ladder. Face it man nowadays your nothing if you don't have that plasma screen, that car, that hefty bank account and that 3 bedroom house. I remember the 80's, sure we had'nt got much money but hey we had community, culture, morals and high hopes, wan't perfect but at least we had an identity you could believe in. As far as I'm concerned we've turned into a nation of Stupid people who think with their bank accounts.

    Actually my jobs pretty safe since it's highly specialised and as far as being a racist maybe I am after all I am half Pakistani and sometimes I dislike myself. Or maybe just maybe I'm a human being like everyone else thats so sick of this rethorical PC Sh1te that I could puke. I would prefer to see Even Sinn Fein running this country then feckin Brussels.


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    #35
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    Jimkel wrote: »
    see what I mean/ When did I blame foreigners on anything? I blame the Gov on the current state of affairs here in Ireland, Irelands lost it's culture and morality and turned into pile of greedy idiots clamboring for a foot on the materiaistic ladder. Face it man nowadays your nothing if you don't have that plasma screen, that car, that hefty bank account and that 3 bedroom house. I remember the 80's, sure we had'nt got much money but hey we had community, culture, morals and high hopes, wan't perfect but at least we had an identity you could believe in. As far as I'm concerned we've turned into a nation of Stupid people who think with their bank accounts.

    Actually my jobs pretty safe since it's highly specialised and as far as being a racist maybe I am after all I am half Pakistani and sometimes I dislike myself. Or maybe just maybe I'm a human being like everyone else thats so sick of this rethorical PC Sh1te that I could puke. I would prefer to see Even Sinn Fein running this country then feckin Brussels.
    For one, I am quite relieved that racism and domestic issues have not been to the forefront of this campaign.


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    #36
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin



    1. Increase of power to the European Parliament.
    The parliament currently votes on only 80% legislation, the Lisbon Treaty increases this to 95%. The parliament currently only approves 20% of the budget, this will be increased to 100%
    2. The commission is slimmed down fairly and all states are represented equally
    Under the Nice treaty the commission will be slimmed down in 2009. However the rules are not yet set, Lisbon sets those rules in a manner which gives 100% equality to all states big and small. The larger states originally wanted a permanent commissioner and all the small states would rotate. The Irish delegation got them to agree to agree to a binding system of equality. If the treaty does not pass this is back on the table.
    3. The Councils must meet in the open.
    At present the European Council and the Council of Ministers meet behind closed doors. This arouses suspicion in the public as they do not get to see how deals are reached. Under the Lisbon treaty the Councils must meet in the open providing valuable transparency.

    I dont see how 1 & 2 are reasons to vote yes, to me they are reasons to vote no


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    #37
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    I dont see how 1 & 2 are reasons to vote yes, to me they are reasons to vote no

    So you would rather the council have exclusive say over 20% of EU legislation rather than the directly elected parliament?

    And you would also rather the larger states to have a permanent commissioner and have the smaller states rotate theirs every 5-10 years?


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    #38
    Ivan
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 4,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ivan


    That is not what we are voting on. We are voting on the current proposed changes, just because we might disagree with the current proposed changes (or some of them) doesnt mean we are asking for (or responsible for) any future changes. Those future changes, when debated and written up into a treaty will then be voted on by the peoples of europe (i.e. just Ireland :p)

    This is what I dislike about this whole affair, you dont like the current treaty (or parts thereof) therefore you must want this other option (that really no sane person should want). Why cant we have some of the things from lisbon and remove some of the stuff we dont want? Is it so wrong to believe that we could do better?

    I am still a little shaky as to what way I am going to vote this evening, but I am leaning towards no.

    I hate to say it, but the "if you arent sure, vote no" argument is about to be employed here, albeit in a different way than usual; there are so many good features of the Lisbon treaty and so many bad, that I am just not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing, as a whole. Therefore, I would kinda like to see some more debate, some more analysis and a new document rewritten. Whats another 7 years in the grand scheme of things? It seems to me, that this is all too important to rush into, simply because you like several aspects of this treaty... or because everyone in your government is voting for it... or because Bono is voting for it :rolleyes:


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    #39
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Ivan wrote: »
    That is not what we are voting on. We are voting on the current proposed changes, just because we might disagree with the current proposed changes (or some of them) doesnt mean we are asking for (or responsible for) any future changes. Those future changes, when debated and written up into a treaty will then be voted on by the peoples of europe (i.e. just Ireland :p)

    This is what I dislike about this whole affair, you dont like the current treaty (or parts thereof) therefore you must want this other option (that really no sane person should want). Why cant we have some of the things from lisbon and remove some of the stuff we dont want? Is it so wrong to believe that we could do better?

    I am still a little shaky as to what way I am going to vote this evening, but I am leaning towards no.

    I hate to say it, but the "if you arent sure, vote no" argument is about to be employed here, albeit in a different way than usual; there are so many good features of the Lisbon treaty and so many bad, that I am just not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing, as a whole. Therefore, I would kinda like to see some more debate, some more analysis and a new document rewritten. Whats another 7 years in the grand scheme of things? It seems to me, that this is all too important to rush into, simply because you like several aspects of this treaty... or because everyone in your government is voting for it... or because Bono is voting for it :rolleyes:

    Sure. The grab-bag issue with treaties is a problem for me - one of the features I like about Lisbon is the clause that allows it to be amended bit by bit (the one generally mischaracterised as the "self-amending clause").

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #40
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Ivan wrote: »
    That is not what we are voting on. We are voting on the current proposed changes, just because we might disagree with the current proposed changes (or some of them) doesnt mean we are asking for (or responsible for) any future changes. Those future changes, when debated and written up into a treaty will then be voted on by the peoples of europe (i.e. just Ireland :p)

    This is what I dislike about this whole affair, you dont like the current treaty (or parts thereof) therefore you must want this other option (that really no sane person should want). Why cant we have some of the things from lisbon and remove some of the stuff we dont want? Is it so wrong to believe that we could do better?

    I am still a little shaky as to what way I am going to vote this evening, but I am leaning towards no.

    I hate to say it, but the "if you arent sure, vote no" argument is about to be employed here, albeit in a different way than usual; there are so many good features of the Lisbon treaty and so many bad, that I am just not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing, as a whole. Therefore, I would kinda like to see some more debate, some more analysis and a new document rewritten. Whats another 7 years in the grand scheme of things? It seems to me, that this is all too important to rush into, simply because you like several aspects of this treaty... or because everyone in your government is voting for it... or because Bono is voting for it :rolleyes:

    It is my opinion that after roughly 7 years of countries working this treaty out another 7 years will leave us at much the same place, but there won't be any analysis and debate until a couple days before it is voted on again as well imo.


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    #41
    claudiog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭claudiog


    In my opinion the Europe should be a lightweight confederation.
    The treaty? Take a look to the swiss constitution. That is simple, gives small and limited power to the federal gov, assuring the autonomy of each state (cantons), stating the rights of the citizens. No much more.
    I don't remember well ...may be 30 pages?


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    #42
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    claudiog wrote: »
    In my opinion the Europe should be a lightweight confederation.
    The treaty? Take a look to the swiss constitution. That is simple, gives small and limited power to the federal gov, assuring the autonomy of each state (cantons), stating the rights of the citizens. No much more.
    I don't remember well ...may be 30 pages?

    Plus thousands of legal judgments, and tens of thousands of pages of legal opinion.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #43
    PrivateEye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭PrivateEye


    Still 30 + minutes.


    1) The whole thing is open to legal interpretation. Read over it. If WE Cant agree on it now....

    2) Bad for workers rights/public services. See IBECS own submission to the NCOE, which talks of the 'liberalisation' of services, among which they list HEALTH.

    3) 3 out of 460+ Million have a vote. Democratic?

    4) Our neutrality is safe....but why should we increase our military spending? Do we need to? Plenty of other areas to spend the cash.

    5) France has stated its desire to harmonise taxes during its presidency. We need to send a strong message.


  • Options
    #44
    carveone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭carveone


    PrivateEye wrote: »
    5) France has stated its desire to harmonise taxes during its presidency. We need to send a strong message.

    France: indirect tax rates
    - Duties 5-17%
    - Books 5.5%
    - VAT 19.6%

    I could live with that!


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