why are england so sh1te?

allybhoy · 09-07-2008 7:32am

MagicMarker wrote: »

Actually, i'd like to ask... I moved away after Capello was hired but before any games were played under him, so i have literally seen nor heard anything about their performances...

Has there been ANY improvement?

From the games ive seen so far, the answer is no.
The only decent team theyve played so far is France, and they bet them 1nill.
The others have been meaningless friendles against the likes of T&T etc.

Well Xavi, we'll have to agree to disagree, IMO its because they play together like a bunch of headless egotistical chickens. And I base that on the fact that they were leaking a lot of goals in the qualification and not creating many chances up front. If it was a case that their defense was rock solid and the strikers were getting inundated with chances I might agree you but from the games I saw that wasnt the case. Ferdinand looks absolutely muck IMO without VIDIC beside him and christ knows what the wingbacks were up to in the game against Russia at Wembley.

Xavi6 · 09-07-2008 7:38am

I wholeheartedly agree that tactical ineptitude has cost them dearly.

My only point is that if you weigh up the quality of defenders, the quality of the midfielders and the quality of the strikers then up top is where it's seriously lacking.

Fratton Fred · 09-07-2008 9:14am

I am so glad England didn;t qualify for the euros, hopefully it will act as the kick up the arse the FA and the players need.

Firstly I agree with the article, it needs to start at youth level which is something i think the FA are now doing. However, there are plenty of England players doing it at the highest club level week in week out, so why not in an england shirt. I think it was interesting that Ronaldo was not that great without Rooney by the way. he is a great player, but the rooney/Ronaldo partnership is

Secondly, the money and the hype has taken away a lot of the ambition players have at a very early age. This is one reason I have so much respect for Beckham, despite riches way beyond what most of us can imagine, he still wears his england shirt with the upmost of pride.

Lets face it, most teenage blokes are motivated by two things, money and sex. When you have 19 year old Man United reserve players earning £7k a week and bedding all the best looking girls in Manchester, why should they give a **** about improving their game, they have everything they want as it is.

The last manager was a joke and made some appalling decisions. McLaren picked the big names because he knew if he didn't he would get slated. it was an easy option. I also wonder how much pressure is exerted by Sky/the FA as well. , for example, the Crouch/Defoe partnership yielded 7 goals in three games for england, take a look at this article in football365 It's not about big names, its about combinations that work, look at spain, they dropped Fabregas because he didn't fit the system.

There were not may players in the Euros that i think stood out, there was a lot of hype about Arshavin (Isn't that elton john's favourite past time:D) but the stand out thing for me was that there were teams who played like teams, such as Spain, Turkey and in particular for me, Germany (Who I thought were excellent, but Spain were worthy winners). I was glad we didn't qualify because it is a kick up the arse, but i honestly think that an england team playing like a team would have had a very good chance of winning it, although i know we wouldn;t have, because we are, as the OP said, ****e.

gixerfixer · 09-07-2008 9:31am

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

My opinion is that they are very average. The hype that the British media lead many to think that they are actually world class players...

Agreed.Name me one world class player that England have.Gerrard,Rooney at a push maybe.Overhyped primadonas the lot of them

Jivin Turkey · 09-07-2008 9:41am

Xavi6 wrote: »

The fact is England have an abundance of world class players in pretty much every position, except up front. (also left wing). That has been, and will continue to be, their downfall since Shearer retired and Owen became a crock.

Their down fall is that they have never had a manager strong enough to mould these into a team. They do now.

How can anyone say the England team is just hype is beyond me. About 14 of any England squad is made up of players who play for clubs in the top six in Europe. No other country can boast that.

Why is their perennial under-achievement met with bile and distaste while Spain's (until Euro2008) supported as this year being "their year"?

Mr. Presentable · 09-07-2008 9:42am

"England football team great on paper, **** on grass."

Who was it said that?

England are not sh1te - they are just not as good as they are hyped to be. Despite that, with a modicum of luck they'd have made the semi in 2004. They got knocked out of WC2002 by the eventual winners via a fluke goal. In WC2006 out in the quarters on penalties.

So, England good, but lacking that final bit of class to get over the edge. Remember, there can only be one winner in a tournament. Are England better than Spain/Italy/Brazil/France/Germany? In general they may be as good as them, but when the extra bit of class is required - Cannavaro/Ronaldinho/Henry/Zidane etc, it's not there.

Fratton Fred · 09-07-2008 9:43am

gixerfixer wrote: »

Agreed.Name me one world class player that England have.Gerrard,Rooney at a push maybe.Overhyped primadonas the lot of them

Ferdinand, Terry, Ashley Cole, Joe Cole, Lampard, Carrick, Hargraves and Rooney are all regulars for the two CL finalists, add Gerrard and crouch who have been to the final stages before as well and you have the makings of a pretty good side.

How many Spanish players were there in the semi finals?

leninbenjamin · 09-07-2008 9:44am

gixerfixer wrote: »

Agreed.Name me one world class player that England have.Gerrard,Rooney at a push maybe.Overhyped primadonas the lot of them

Ferdinand and Terry have the potential to be the best centre back partnership in the world imo. Cashley, sorry to say it, is one of the best left backs in the world. Hargreaves may not be world class, but he was one of the stand out midfielders in Europe during his Bayern days.

besides you don't need world class players in every position. Spain with with a defence of Ramos, Puyol, Marchena and Capdevila are not world class. nor were the Brazil side that won 2002. On paper England are as good as anyone.

Jivin Turkey · 09-07-2008 9:44am

gixerfixer wrote: »

Agreed.Name me one world class player that England have.Gerrard,Rooney at a push maybe.Overhyped primadonas the lot of them

Terry, Cole and Ferdinand are three of the best and most consistent defenders in Europe.

gixerfixer · 09-07-2008 9:46am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ferdinand, Terry, Ashley Cole, Joe Cole, Lampard, Carrick, Hargraves and Rooney are all regulars for the two CL finalists, add Gerrard and crouch who have been to the final stages before as well and you have the makings of a pretty good side.

How many Spanish players were there in the semi finals?

The fact that you have put Carrick and Crouch in there says it all.

Mr. Presentable · 09-07-2008 9:47am

Jivin Turkey wrote: »

About 14 of any England squad is made up of players who play for clubs in the top six in Europe. No other country can boast that.

How is that relevant? The pivotal players for the "top six in Europe" (?) are all of nationalities other than English. All the major countries have heaps of players of a high standard, but only a few have players with that something extra, and England ain't one of them.

gixerfixer · 09-07-2008 9:48am

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Ferdinand and Terry have the potential to be the best centre back partnership in the world imo. Cashley, sorry to say it, is one of the best left backs in the world. Hargreaves may not be world class, but he was one of the stand out midfielders in Europe during his Bayern days.

besides you don't need world class players in every position. Spain with with a defence of Ramos, Puyol, Marchena and Capdevila are not world class. nor were the Brazil side that won 2002. On paper England are as good as anyone.

On paper means nothing.Real class players prove it on the pitch.If there was a World cup for talking players up England would have a better International record than Brazil or Germany

gustavo · 09-07-2008 9:51am

gixerfixer wrote: »

On paper means nothing.Real class players prove it on the pitch.If there was a World cup for talking players up England would have a better International record than Brazil or Germany

Are you aware of how much they talk up players in Germany or Brazil?

leninbenjamin · 09-07-2008 9:54am

as a side note; what do people think England's best starting eleven is?

the back 4 pick themselves i guess, but the rest for me would be:

James

Richards---Ferdinand---Terry---Cashley

Hargreaves

Barry

Bentley

Gerrard

Cole

Rooney

i know everyone says Rooney isn't an out and out striker, but when he plays there for United he does a marvellous job of bringing the midfielders and widemen into play, as long as the rest of the team can learn to give him the ball to feet which is England's biggest problem these days.

edit:

gixerfixer wrote: »

On paper means nothing.Real class players prove it on the pitch.If there was a World cup for talking players up England would have a better International record than Brazil or Germany

not true. all teams start out on paper. Where Brazil and Germany have been better at in recent years is creating a tactical system that gets the best out of the players. Sven or McLaren never actually seemed to sit down and try to do this. the simply hoped by playing the best 11 would be enough. but it never is. but have no fear if someone actually can, and then impart it on the players properly, England can be as good as anyone. just no one ever has with this generation.

One Cold Hand · 09-07-2008 10:01am

A. Young > J. Cole.

gixerfixer · 09-07-2008 10:03am

gustavo wrote: »

Are you aware of how much they talk up players in Germany or Brazil?

Are you aware of the amount of finals those two teams have reached compared to England.They have every right to talk them up,England do not.

leninbenjamin · 09-07-2008 10:03am

One Cold Hand wrote: »

A. Young > J. Cole.

completely forgot about Young actually...

yeah i'd definitely stick him in there. probably for Bentley not Cole though, then swap them.

Fratton Fred · 09-07-2008 10:05am

gixerfixer wrote: »

On paper means nothing.Real class players prove it on the pitch.If there was a World cup for talking players up England would have a better International record than Brazil or Germany

Read a lot of German and brazillian newspapers do you?

gosplan · 09-07-2008 10:05am

Lack of technically gifted players means it's hard for England to break down organised defences.

That's why players like Rooney, Joe Cole and Gazza are so important to the English cause.

I think Chelsea played a very English style last year but they've superior players and a battering ram in the form of Drogba to get them out of tight games.

I think the reason that these players don't come through the English system is due to the youth organisation and the culture of knocking 'Fancy Dans' and 'big-time Charlies' and all that stuff.

Some very admirable qualities though - give everything for the team, run your socks off, never stop trying but it's not really enough against a talented team that play smart football.

gosplan · 09-07-2008 10:16am

Just to add that the whole creative player thing hurts them most in central/attacking midfield.

England has really lacked players like Modric, Fabregas, Zidane, Xavi, Pirlo.

Apart from Scholes, that is.

J Cole and Rooney are skillful but can be marked out of the game and the supply to them can be cut off.

One great midfield player who can receive the ball, make room for himself and create and they'd be a super team.

hotspur · 09-07-2008 10:20am

You cannot underestimate the importance of the fact that apart from the 2 years of Venables every manager they have had has been a moron since Bobby Robson left in 1990. That's 18 years with only a 2 year respite from monstrous idiocy, and during that 2 years they were unlucky not to win the European Championships.

Graham Taylor 1990 - 1993
Terry Venables 1994 - 1996
Glenn Hoddle 1996 - 1999
Kevin Keegan 1999 - 2000
Sven-Göran Eriksson 2001 - 2006
Steve McClaren 2006 - 2007

Brazil themselves would have had a similar level of ineptitude if manged by that lot over the 18 years. If you want to see what the biggest difference between England and the other big football nations has been over the recent years then there it is - unspeakably bad management.

I watch every England match and Euro 96 was the last time they had any proper balance to the team with players happy and fit for the roles in which they were played. It's no wonder that the top players they have had have often played in a disgruntled, disorganised, and aggravated way when managed by these imbeciles in positions and with tactics which don't play to their strengths. It has nothing to do with quality when an England team cannot beat the likes of Macedonia, it's about a lack of a sensible balanced team with players happy and committed to what the are doing.

It will all change under Capello who if he cannot accommodate both a Lampard and a Gerard in the centre will just leave one of them out etc.

Charlie · 09-07-2008 12:43pm

hotspur wrote: »

You cannot underestimate the importance of the fact that apart from the 2 years of Venables every manager they have had has been a moron since Bobby Robson left in 1990. That's 18 years with only a 2 year respite from monstrous idiocy, and during that 2 years they were unlucky not to win the European Championships.

Graham Taylor 1990 - 1993
Terry Venables 1994 - 1996
Glenn Hoddle 1996 - 1999
Kevin Keegan 1999 - 2000
Sven-Göran Eriksson 2001 - 2006
Steve McClaren 2006 - 2007

Brazil themselves would have had a similar level of ineptitude if manged by that lot over the 18 years. If you want to see what the biggest difference between England and the other big football nations has been over the recent years then there it is - unspeakably bad management.

I watch every England match and Euro 96 was the last time they had any proper balance to the team with players happy and fit for the roles in which they were played. It's no wonder that the top players they have had have often played in a disgruntled, disorganised, and aggravated way when managed by these imbeciles in positions and with tactics which don't play to their strengths. It has nothing to do with quality when an England team cannot beat the likes of Macedonia, it's about a lack of a sensible balanced team with players happy and committed to what the are doing.

It will all change under Capello who if he cannot accommodate both a Lampard and a Gerard in the centre will just leave one of them out etc.

Good post. Whilst Venables may not be a tactical genius, I think he was the perfect man for the English setup, particularly back in 96 with characters such as Teddy, Gazza, and the Guvnor. He knew that these players didn't need coaching, and let them them do what they did best, play unrestricted football and play with confidence.

I would disagree with you slightly re Hoddle. I think he was probably the best manage since Venables, and unlucky in France 98. Whilst he seemed like a drab aul chap, and he was a fool to say what he did, I think he got shafted by both the FA and the media.

eirebhoy · 09-07-2008 1:15pm

allybhoy wrote: »

Also How about Italy in 2006? You could hardly say that at the time they had one world class striker in their squad, except for maybe Totti and sure he was past it by then. They didnt win the WC with their attack, they won it with their defence.

They certainly wouldn't have won it without Pirlo the genius. England could win a world cup if they had a Pirlo too. Never in a million years would Pirlo be the player he is now though if he started in England. He's too technically gifted, too slow and too poor defensively for an English team to play him in what basically is the holding role that he fills today. If Beckham started in Italy I bet he'd be a similar type of player to Pirlo.

From an Irish point of view it'll be interesting to see if Keane allows Andy Reid to play the deep lying role. If he was playing in Italy or Spain I don't think there's any question that's the position he'd be playing.

gosplan · 09-07-2008 1:52pm

hotspur wrote: »

You cannot underestimate the importance of the fact that apart from the 2 years of Venables every manager they have had has been a moron since Bobby Robson left in 1990. That's 18 years with only a 2 year respite from monstrous idiocy, and during that 2 years they were unlucky not to win the European Championships.

Graham Taylor 1990 - 1993
Terry Venables 1994 - 1996
Glenn Hoddle 1996 - 1999
Kevin Keegan 1999 - 2000
Sven-Göran Eriksson 2001 - 2006
Steve McClaren 2006 - 2007

Brazil themselves would have had a similar level of ineptitude if manged by that lot over the 18 years. If you want to see what the biggest difference between England and the other big football nations has been over the recent years then there it is - unspeakably bad management.

I watch every England match and Euro 96 was the last time they had any proper balance to the team with players happy and fit for the roles in which they were played. It's no wonder that the top players they have had have often played in a disgruntled, disorganised, and aggravated way when managed by these imbeciles in positions and with tactics which don't play to their strengths. It has nothing to do with quality when an England team cannot beat the likes of Macedonia, it's about a lack of a sensible balanced team with players happy and committed to what the are doing.

It will all change under Capello who if he cannot accommodate both a Lampard and a Gerard in the centre will just leave one of them out etc.

While Sven made some bizzare choices, I don't think you can brandish him a moron. I think he recognised England's strengths and weaknesses and got the team to play to them.

They went deep in pretty much every major tournament that they took part in and tended either to go out to the winners or to another very good team on penalties.

estebancambias · 09-07-2008 9:18pm

eirebhoy wrote: »

They certainly wouldn't have won it without Pirlo the genius. England could win a world cup if they had a Pirlo too. Never in a million years would Pirlo be the player he is now though if he started in England. He's too technically gifted, too slow and too poor defensively for an English team to play him in what basically is the holding role that he fills today. If Beckham started in Italy I bet he'd be a similar type of player to Pirlo.

From an Irish point of view it'll be interesting to see if Keane allows Andy Reid to play the deep lying role. If he was playing in Italy or Spain I don't think there's any question that's the position he'd be playing.

Yep and I firmly believe he would be a stand out performer. I don't believe England have a player like Reid who can dictate a match like the way he did against Germany. Carrick maby, but he's too full of Hollywood passes.

weemcd · 09-07-2008 9:28pm

IMO very intresting article on England's inability to achieve internationaly.

^anyone any thoughts having read it?

What they (England) have not brought with them — be it at the last World Cup finals, or in the failed qualifying campaign in Euro 2008 — is a system of playing football that works and which will be adhered to no matter what personnel may become available.

Very good article on the success of spain and co. at the euros due to their system, and the importance of having a decent system in place that is bigger than any player or ego in the tem.

As the author rightly points out, had england ever played in this manner, nobody would care if steven gerrard and frank lampard (2 players i admire) play well togther, if they didn't one would have to make way for a player who was able to fill the position. He cites examples of how spain's system remained the same with or without villa, also pointing out that van persie and arjen robben wern't simply given a free ticket into the Holland team, they had to wait until the system allowed their inclusion to the starting lineup. If england ever addoped this approach - I believe if anyone is going to sort them out it will be capello - they may achieve international success.

Bubs101 · 09-07-2008 9:47pm

eirebhoy wrote: »

They certainly wouldn't have won it without Pirlo the genius. England could win a world cup if they had a Pirlo too. Never in a million years would Pirlo be the player he is now though if he started in England. He's too technically gifted, too slow and too poor defensively for an English team to play him in what basically is the holding role that he fills today. If Beckham started in Italy I bet he'd be a similar type of player to Pirlo.

When I was living there last summer I read a great article about how if Joe Cole was raised in Italy he would have become a great number 10 but as the position doesn't exist in England he had to settle for the wing. There are probably more examples that of players being forced to play in certain positions just because they fit the 4-4-2

Fratton Fred · 10-07-2008 8:46am

Bubs101 wrote: »

When I was living there last summer I read a great article about how if Joe Cole was raised in Italy he would have become a great number 10 but as the position doesn't exist in England he had to settle for the wing. There are probably more examples that of players being forced to play in certain positions just because they fit the 4-4-2

I've just finished reading Linvoy Primus' autobiography and he talks about the way Harry redknapp manages.

redknapp plays a system which he varies slightly depending on the opposition, home or away etc. but his key is that he only buys players who fit his system. rather than buy a great player and build a team around him, or buy players and try to fit them in, he just gets players to do what they do best and that gives them confidence. Glenn Johnson is a prime example in this, he never really fitted into Chelsea and his confidence was hit, but at pompey he has been great, playing the position he is good at.

why are england so sh1te?

Comments