Rules of Golf on Smartphones

The new iPhone 4S has the compass as a separate app so not sure if these can now be used as DMDs.

And I think your question is very good. It is much easier to find the answer via the Rules of Golf app rather than in the book because of the search option.

Hope you find the answer!!

bustercherry wrote: »

You cannot use it as a DMD in qualifing comps. It's the same as bushnell range finders with slope, they are not allowed even if you do not use the functionality.

Maybe if Congu/PGA/GUI etc... come up with an approved DMD app for smartphones, then you may see them allowed.

The problem is not the app its the other apps that you *could* have on the phone. Once the phone has the ability to have the illegal apps on it then its a potential problem.

That said I had a phone approved for play in a GUI event because I could show that the illegal apps had been removed.

Jul3s wrote: »

This is incorrect and it's this kind of misinformation and poor interpretation of the rule that causes most of the confusion, particularly on here when it's coming from a person who should know better.
This is the rule regarding DMD.

potential [puh-ten-shuhl]  
po·ten·tial   [puh-ten-shuhl]
adjective
1. possible, as opposed to actual:


I was merely pointing out that a dedicated DMD app from the R&A solves nothing, but thanks anyway!

That's a great link Jul3s. So the site is saying that you can use your iPhone (which has compass on it) to check the rules as long as you are not using it as a DMD. If you are using it as a DMD, it must not have the capability to check anything but distance.

Jul3s wrote: »

Still incorrect I'm afraid, a phone having the potential to have that app is not a breach of the rules.

Please reread the original post as you are misreading it and missing the point.
It seems you are reading the word "potential" in the wrong place.

Im not saying its a breach of the rules, Im saying the ability to load other apps is a potential problem that a RANDA app doesnt address.

Once the phone has the ability to have the illegal apps on it then its a potential problem.

Jul3s wrote: »

Anyway enough of this nonsense, because any serious golfer is not using their phone as a DMD and whoever is using it as a DMD, I'd leave them off because smartphones as DMD's are not so smart at all i.e there're ****e.

No longer true, we were doing some on course testing on some new code last week and were getting accuracy below +\- 40cm

Jul3s wrote: »

The part in bold is nonsense, why would you even bother saying it, it's "potentially" confusing and misleading and is irrelavant imo, the fact that your phone has the ability to carry such apps, doesn't make it a breach of the rules, it's only if and when the offending app is installed on the phone that it becomes a problem.

You are conveniently bolding only half of a sentence there buddy.

1) bustercherry posted that maybe a randa app would "solve" the smartphone issue
2) I stated that a randa app wouldnt solve anything as the problem is not with the DMD app itself, its with the potential to have other illegal apps on the phone.
3) You misunderstood and now keep posting, arguing against a point I havent made...

Look at the part of your own post that I have bolded. Do you think a Randa approved smart phone app solves this issue? No. Neither do I. Because the ability to install other illegal apps is what creates the potential problem with smart phones that a randa approved DMD app doesnt address.


Smartphone DMD's are perfectly acceptable at amateur level golf, I dont see the need for the snobbery.

If you can hit the ball within 2m each time taking into consideration elevation, air pressure, wind, temperature and your own shot making ability then we would probably be watching you on telly every Sunday night and not arguing on a golf forum. :cool:

The local rule in my place is you can use DMD but the device must not be capable of providing any other details e.g. direction, slope, temp etc

Thats very clear imo, a smart phone Device is capable of providing such details, e.g. you can install an app for temp.

That local rule wording is based on the GUI ruling for inter club competitions afaik

matt-dublin wrote: »

Hi Villain,

although an app for weather can be downloaded its not actually a temperature/humidity/wind measuring device, its only referencing a website which is pulling the information from a remote weather station.

so technically its not measuring the information or capable of measuring it, its only reporting it.

Doesnt need to measure, even reporting is a breach.
From here
Though the rules are not technically clear here either.
It seems to say that its only a breach if this information is available from a browser or a shortcut to a browser. This doesnt mean anything in the real world.
I can write an android app thats getting weather and wind information from the internet but not via a browser. Is this a breach or not? To me it clearly is but the rules dont explicitly state that it is.

saintastic wrote: »

Matt-Dublin, did you see Jul3s' post earlier, he provided a very good link which makes it clear in my opinion: http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/DMDs.aspx.

ah thats new, i didn't see the flowcharts.

due to that all iphones are out from iphone 3 and up.

about time, but i think they should allow iphones.

Villain wrote: »

I'm not so sure tbh, this might be an extreme case but I have a professional weather station about 1 mile from the course I play, if I was to use my iPhone I could get the wind direction and speed and then use the compass to get very accurate information, now I play off 18 so tbh it's not going make much difference to me but it might to others.

u can get a very accurate compass bearing from a GPS distance measuring device based on point to point and directionality

you're also allowed to browse the web and get weather information as long as the device cant actually measure the weather/wind/air pressure/temperature

GreeBo wrote: »

It was a specific point in time, the phone or app were not unilaterally cleared for play.
Android using Swing by Swing GPS app.

whats the hardware that your android os is running on.

Jul3s wrote: »

. it's only if the device itself has the capability to measure the weather conditions in situ),

Where are you getting this bit from?

If the device has an app that tells you the weather its a breach of the rules.
So if you have a weather widget on your home screen or your device has a compass app (like 99% of them do) then its a breach. Even if you are not using the app or its turned off/disabled.

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Thanks, I don't really understand your point to be honest, and I'm really not looking to pick an argument, but what you have said about being allowed use a smartphone and App as a DMD is of real interest to me and my business.

So, what do you mean by a specific point in time. And when you say, approved for play in a GUI event, I'm assuming it was inter-club and that it was a GUI official who approved it. Is that correct?

My point is that just because my phone was approved for that event doesnt mean that it would be approved automatically at the next event, or that anyone else with the same phone/app would be approved.

Approval is given at a point in time. They checked the phone and approved it. But since i could go home that night and download a bunch of illegal apps the "approval" was purely for that point in time. Make sense?

Correct on your last 2 questions.

matt-dublin wrote: »

Greebo, does your phone have the ability to flip from landscape to portrait automatically?

Yes. But having the hardware without any way to report/view the details does not constitute a breach from what I can see. The Gyroscope does not provide the slope information to the user. It provides it to the hardware/OS and its up to some app to report it to the user. If you dont have the app you do not have a device thats capable of reporting information to the user thus its not a breach of 14.3?

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Your statement makes sense. However it flies completely in the face of the rules.

I simply don't understand how a GUI rules official would be in possession of the knowledge, or more importantly, to be expected to be in possession of the knowledge that would allow him/her make that call.

I've been talking to the GUI for months, trying to make some headway on Apps for smartphones, and having little or no luck so far.

My understanding is (or certainly was until your post) that it's nothing got to do with the actual Apps on the device, more so it's the device itself that is the issue. However your experience appears to completely contradict this.

I'm going to follow up with the GUI and I'll feedback what they tell me. I may PM you for more details, if that's ok?

I cant see how they could argue that really. Any device that connects to anything is capable or providing directional (triangulation based) information, so doesnt that make them all illegal?
Even golf specific GPS devices are triangulating so they can certainly tell which direction you are heading..i.e. a compass?
They may not be reporting that to the user but I am pretty sure there is at least debugging code in there that is accessible somehow.
They need to be way more specific before they make these sorts of call IMHO, lest it turn into a farce.

matt-dublin wrote: »

It does, once it has the abilitilty to do it its illegal.

even if there is a local rule or allowance in place, the RANDA rule does not permit this under a local rule.

the only way it would be compliant would be to remove the gyroscope.

Likewise for every GPS device so? (per my above example)

matt-dublin wrote: »

Most of the golf specific devices don't have gyroscopes which can measure slope and angles quote accuretly

Im not argueing with youe and i agree with your triangulation point above but in the instance youve provided above you should have been disqualified ot told not to use the device.

They dont have gyroscopes, but they do have the ability to determine direction. If the rule is that having the technical ability to measure these things (no requirement on reporting them) then all GPS devices are a breach and only laser devices should be allowed. Also what difference does the "accurately" make?

I checked my device with the GUI official on duty on the day before I played and he approved it. As far as Im concerned thats all I can do. If the GUI approve it then I will use it.

Bustercherry, calculating your current position and a position on the middle of the green gives you directionality and very accurately too, down to one or two degrees i would wager.

Greebo, if your phone doesn't have a gyroscope how does it change from portrait to landscap automatically

bustercherry wrote: »

Are they the same? Triangulation only calculates the exact coordinates of GPS receiver (including Cell Triagulation) at a certain point of time. You can only calculate your bearing by comparing 2 or more coordinates (usually over a set period of time), which will give you the direction you travelled. It will not however tell you which way you are facing, nor when you are standing still can it determine if you change the direction you are facing.

Exactly, if your GPS is tracking the last X coordinates then it has a pretty good idea which direction you are walking, which, if you had this information you could use to determine which direction you are facing, and then extrapolate any direction, simply by rotating. (e.g. I was walking north, thus anything to my right is east, so now I know what direction the prevailing wind is blowing even if cant feel it because the tee is sheltered.

@matt-dublin
I already said my phone does have a gyroscope