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UK and Ireland had secret military pact

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  • 07-01-2012 3:05am
    #1
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1231/1224309675053.html


    1981 secret contingency plan for military pact with Britain; 500,000 fit to fight
    Ireland in 1981 had a secret plan to enter a military pact with Britain in the event of war. The plan documentation said that Ireland had 500,000 fit for military service.

    Shannon and Bantry Bay were identified as Russian targets.

    The Irish plan listed airports, radar sites and other facilities ready to be made available. It added that the benefits Ireland had to offer were also available to other European governments.


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    #2
    ex_infantry man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭ex_infantry man


    shannon and bantry targets eh, guess its coz of whitty island near bantry with its gulf oil and shannon coz its a stopover for the yanks


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    #3
    xflyer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    ex_infantry man wrote: »
    shannon and bantry targets eh, guess its coz of whitty island near bantry with its gulf oil and shannon coz its a stopover for the yanks
    Not just because of that but because it has a very long runway and it would be a refuge for all of NATO when they lost their other bases.


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    #4
    Maybe_Memories
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭Maybe_Memories


    xflyer wrote: »
    Not just because of that but because it has a very long runway and it would be a refuge for all of NATO when they lost their other bases.

    Long enough for the space shuttle to land I believe.


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    #5
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    Is there not a tendency for Irish people to overestimate the country's strategic value ?
    With great advances in technology in areas like mid-air refuelling , communications , etc was Ireland in the 1980's really as valuable as many believed ?


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    #6
    krissovo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    Delancey wrote: »
    Is there not a tendency for Irish people to overestimate the country's strategic value ?
    With great advances in technology in areas like mid-air refuelling , communications , etc was Ireland in the 1980's really as valuable as many believed ?

    Ireland is the gateway to North Western europe, it also sits on the backdoor to the UK so regardless of technology it will always be highly strategic. Given our location whether we like it or not we will always be under the protection of NATO or at least the US and UK.


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    #7
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Delancey wrote: »
    Is there not a tendency for Irish people to overestimate the country's strategic value ?
    With great advances in technology in areas like mid-air refuelling , communications , etc was Ireland in the 1980's really as valuable as many believed ?

    its probably not as valuable as being 'war-winning' - as you say, AAR and bases in Scotland, Cornwall and NI will take aircraft out as far as aircraft based at Shannon - but extra ports and extra airfields makes the enemy's task more difficult because he has to work harder in order to inderdict NATO SLOC's and disrupt NATO's attempts to maintain them . you wouldn't find a single NATO officer who wouldn't happily base maritime control assets at Shannon, and consequently you wouldn't have found a Soviet officer who wouldn't happily of nuked/heavily attacked Shannon to prevent NATO from using it.


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    #8
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    krissovo wrote: »
    Ireland is the gateway to North Western europe, it also sits on the backdoor to the UK so regardless of technology it will always be highly strategic. Given our location whether we like it or not we will always be under the protection of NATO or at least the US and UK.


    Thats correct, its still seen as by NATO as Europes western flank.

    Its claimed the Soviet invasion of Britain would have also come from the North west, the plan also most likely included an invasion of the republic.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Russian-plot-to-invade--Blackpool/2005/05/02/1114886300682.html

    A Cold War map of a popular seaside resort labelled in Russian may be evidence of Soviet plans to invade Britain.

    According to military historian Henry Dodds, the map of Blackpool on Britain's west coast is believed to be part of a battle plan to land the Red Army on the town's Pleasure Beach.

    The elaborate plot is to be revealed in a BBC Radio 4 documentary, Balalaikas in Blackpool, later this month.

    The map, which is clearly marked "Secret", identifies the town's key landmarks in Cyrillic letters, including the water works, town hall, post offices, bus and rail stations as well as the famous Blackpool Tower


    The BBC claims the map is one of over 200 maps of British cities, ports and railheads produced by Soviet intelligence between 1964 and 1988.


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    #9
    Maoltuile
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Maoltuile


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    The BBC claims the map is one of over 200 maps of British cities, ports and railheads produced by Soviet intelligence between 1964 and 1988.

    An Cosantóir Review had an article a few years ago on the extensive Soviet mapping of Ireland. It would be a mistake to read to much into it, though - could just be under-employed cartographers looking to 'make work'. There was no context of how much detail the rest of Europe was mapped in.


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    #10
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Maoltuile wrote: »
    An Cosantóir Review had an article a few years ago on the extensive Soviet mapping of Ireland. It would be a mistake to read to much into it, though - could just be under-employed cartographers looking to 'make work'. There was no context of how much detail the rest of Europe was mapped in.

    i don't doubt there's a good element of that - after all, how often can you re-map East Germany? - however i personally would bet my last shekel that in the event of the cold war going hot the Soviets had a number of increasingly unpleasant plans with 'Ireland' written on them. Reforger was the absolute linch-pin of NATO plans to defend Germany, and control over the Atlantic was the fulcrum of Reforger - and any action that would deny NATO the use of a GBFO runway on the western-most bit of land in Europe would be well justified in Soviet eyes.


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    #11
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Maoltuile wrote: »
    An Cosantóir Review had an article a few years ago on the extensive Soviet mapping of Ireland. It would be a mistake to read to much into it, though - could just be under-employed cartographers looking to 'make work'. There was no context of how much detail the rest of Europe was mapped in.

    It was in Defense Forces Review, I put some scans up a while ago. The gist of the article was that the Russians had better maps of Ireland than the Irish Army did.

    I don't know how much was standard cartography procedure and how much was operational need, but I doubt it was make-work: Natural terrain features may not change much, but man-made stuff can change rapidly.

    WRT the value of Ireland in the days of air refuelling etc, three points to note are firstly, better to not need to refuel in the first place (frees up the tankers for other spots or you can carry heavier load outs), secondly it reduces reaction time to the West, and thirdly seizing Shannon against the Irish military is likely a bit easier than trying to grab Prestwick or the NATO bases in Iceland and Greenland.

    NTM


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    #12
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Don't forget, Aeroflot and Volga Dnepr airlines used Shannon routinely on their way to Communist Cuba, when the rest of europe was not so forthcoming to them.


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    #13
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    500,000 fit to fight

    Would they have had time to get basic training before either a stalemate or the expensive firecrackers get brought out for play?

    Don't think we had national service or anything like that? Just wondering if it wasn't somewhat of an empty promise, would have worked in the WW's but I doubt there'd be time in a modern high tech war.


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    #14
    tippilot
    Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭tippilot


    goldie fish wrote: »
    Don't forget, Aeroflot and Volga Dnepr airlines used Shannon routinely on their way to Communist Cuba, when the rest of europe was not so forthcoming to them.

    Volga Dnepr only started operations in 1991. Their Shannon involvement extended only to a maintenance base for the An-124 in the post communist era. It was not a crew or cargo facility. No longer operational, the only An124 seen in Shannon these days are on an ad hoc basis.

    Aeroflot on the other hand operated Soviet passenger aircraft that didn't have the legs to reach Cuba in one hop from Moscow. There were other North American destinations including quite a few in the USA. A commercial arrangement was entered into at Shannon where they built a fuel farm and imported their own fuel. There were as many as five Aeroflot aircraft per day using Shannon in the 1980's, including Illyushin 62's and 86's.

    It was not a bilateral strategic partenrship, but a commercial arrangement within UN mandated ICAO frameworks.


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    #15
    Wicklowrider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭Wicklowrider


    I seriously doubt there were 500,000 people in Ireland fit to enlist.
    It had become difficult enough to train willing recruits.
    Asides from that I wonder why the powers at the time thought that many would be inclined to enlist - the average person I remember back then had no inclination. Where would (even the UK forces) find the resources and personnel to train that amount of people? To fight the Soviets? Wouldn't any action be over before you could train a fraction of this amount?

    I'm guessing this was civil servants talking back then.


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    #16
    xflyer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    500,000 fit to enlist doesn't imply they intended to recruit that number. Probably it shows the number of men of military age in the country. it would be quite some war that required 500,000 Irish soldiers.

    Everyone assumes that WW3 would be over in minutes but there were several scenarios where there would only be limited or no nuclear strikes and it turned into a huge conventional WW2 type affair. Perhaps with much of Continental Europe swiftly invaded and occupied by Soviet forces and Britain and Ireland finding themselves reliving 1940. No neutrality this time it seems.

    Mind you there were plenty of people in Ireland who would love a Soviet Socialist Republic of Ireland, 32 county of course!

    Concerning the Shannon stopover for Soviet airliners. There were several shameful incidents where people attempting to defect during refuelling stops where simply bundled back into the aircraft to an uncertain fate.

    Not our finest moment.


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    #17
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    xflyer wrote: »

    Concerning the Shannon stopover for Soviet airliners. There were several shameful incidents where people attempting to defect during refuelling stops where simply bundled back into the aircraft to an uncertain fate.

    Not our finest moment.

    never heard about this, but always assumed there would have been at least SOME defections

    Any links?


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    #18
    neilled
    Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭neilled


    gatecrash wrote: »
    never heard about this, but always assumed there would have been at least SOME defections

    Any links?

    No links i can give you, however Eamon Delaneys "Accidental Diplomat" details a few incidents of defections from shannon and from soviet vessels that had docked in Irish ports during his time in the Department of Foreign affairs. Second hand copies should be easy enough to get hold of.


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    #19
    neilled
    Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭neilled


    Wicklowrider wrote: »
    I seriously doubt there were 500,000 people in Ireland fit to enlist.
    It had become difficult enough to train willing recruits.
    Asides from that I wonder why the powers at the time thought that many would be inclined to enlist - the average person I remember back then had no inclination. Where would (even the UK forces) find the resources and personnel to train that amount of people? To fight the Soviets? Wouldn't any action be over before you could train a fraction of this amount?

    I'm guessing this was civil servants talking back then.

    I'm guessing this was lazy journalism. One of the statistics that you'll often see in government factbooks is a statistic that goes along the lines of "Manpower available for military service" which covers all males of fighting age in the state who could be theoretically called up to serve if needed, normally starting at 18. The upper age limit varies, it goes high as 49 in some cases and in others the cut off is lower.


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    #20
    xflyer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    gatecrash wrote: »
    never heard about this, but always assumed there would have been at least SOME defections

    Any links?
    No, just remembered from the time. I think some did get through. There were some complaints from some circles at the time but the media were essentially compliant with government attitudes at the time. We were closer to being a Soviet state at the time than anyone cares to admit. I don't know if a google search will bring up much of anything.

    So much of our recent history has been ignored. It's not true you will find everything on the internet. The most likely people to make a fuss are left wingers and they weren't going to complain about people being sent back to Cuba or Moscow. Castro being their hero.

    Russians were based in Shannon at the time and it was worth too much money to jeopardise that.

    All conveniently forgotten.


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    #21
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    What xflyer says is all true - a very shameful episode from our recent history , even then Shannon was recognised as non-viable and nothing was allowed rock the boat as far as the Aeroflot connection was concerned.
    I recall one specific incident when a Cuban passenger trashed the Duty Free area ( smashed display cases , etc ) in order to get arrested so he could claim asylum - not a chance , he was bundled back on the aircraft and Aer Rianta stumped up for all the damage done.
    No link available - just going from memory , very little press comment about this behaviour which was in breach of Irelands international obligations.


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    #22
    xflyer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    I guess you and I are above a certain age, Delancey. People younger than us seem to think Ireland was not that much different in attitude to now back in the eighties.

    People now complain about the Americans passing through Shannon. They were suspiciously quiet when Shannon was a Soviet base.


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    #23
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    xflyer wrote: »
    I guess you and I are above a certain age, Delancey. People younger than us seem to think Ireland was not that much different in attitude to now back in the eighties.

    People now complain about the Americans passing through Shannon. They were suspiciously quiet when Shannon was a Soviet base.

    Also CND only protested when US warships visited. Soviet ships got welcomed with open arms.
    Ireland in the 80s was a lot more like ireland in the 70s and 60s than it was like Ireland in the 90s and 00s.


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    #24
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    xflyer wrote: »
    I guess you and I are above a certain age, Delancey. People younger than us seem to think Ireland was not that much different in attitude to now back in the eighties.

    People now complain about the Americans passing through Shannon. They were suspiciously quiet when Shannon was a Soviet base.

    Yes , us folks ' of experience ' remember things others would like forgotten.
    There was no protest in those days at what was being done to genuine asylum seekers - compare that with all the fuss now over US troops passing through.
    I think there was a lot of truth in the allegations that CND and other ' peace groups ' were hopelessly infiltrated by Soviet intelligence and were unwittingly or otherwise , Moscows puppets.


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    #25
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    tippilot wrote: »
    Aeroflot on the other hand operated Soviet passenger aircraft that didn't have the legs to reach Cuba in one hop from Moscow. There were other North American destinations including quite a few in the USA. A commercial arrangement was entered into at Shannon where they built a fuel farm and imported their own fuel. There were as many as five Aeroflot aircraft per day using Shannon in the 1980's, including Illyushin 62's and 86's.

    As I recall at the time there was also a large "official" presence of US "customs officers" in Shannon. Fifty (ish) if I remember correctly. This was long before any US immigration facility was in place.

    Also I believe the largest ever peacetime exercise held by the Irish Army took place in the 1980s and centred on a scenario where "Invasia" paratroops had taken the airport.


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