Decentralisation

Firetrap · 28-01-2009 1:22am

I wonder will this scheme get the axe courtesy of An Bord Snip?

NewDubliner · 28-01-2009 8:47am

Firetrap wrote: »

I wonder will this scheme get the axe courtesy of An Bord Snip?

An accountant would try to unwind it. But, that would affect the builders of the new offices and houses in FF's favoured rural idylls and also the raises the dilemma of the what to do with the people who were hired to replace the existing Dublin-based workers and the duplication of functions that the project has created. Do they fire the original Dublin workers or the newly hired countryfolk?

More likely, it'll be put on ice and then trotted out as an election goody as needed.

It's already caused considerable devestation to knowledge-based areas and politicised a large number of previously apolitical civil servants. That will never be unwound.

With pay cuts, tax hikes and pension levies, we'll all be paying for FF's adventure in social engineering.

NewDubliner · 16-03-2009 8:17am

From the Examiner:

Monday, March 16, 2009

€17m wasted on failed agency moves
by Mary Regan, Political Reporter

MORE than €17 million has been wasted on decentralisation sites across the country after the Government partly scrapped plans to move staff out of Dublin.

The Government has no plans to sell the sites, which have lost significant value, even though it has abandoned plans to build offices on them until public finances improve.

There are concerns that more decentralisation projects will be scrapped in next month’s supplementary budget after it emerged the Government has still not signed a contract for the Public Private Partnership construction of offices in three locations.

Sites worth €10.7m have been purchased in Mullingar, Portlaoise and Carlow under the contract. The Mullingar site cost the state €8.3m. A road into the site has been built, but it is looking unlikely that office space for 306 Department of Education staff will be built because the contract has not yet been signed.

In response to a recent Dáil question on the PPP contract, minister of state at the Department of Finance Martin Mansergh confirmed the contract was not signed. But he said "discussions are proceeding with the successful tenderer with a view to finalising financial closure and contract signing".

Under the plan, 10,000 civil servants were to move to 53 locations around the country. But in October’s budget, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan said a number of projects have been deferred "in light of the changed economic circumstances".

Close to e60m was already spent buying sites in 20 locations where construction has not yet begun. The Government intends to proceed in 14 of these cases. But six have been put off, leading to the waste of:

*€8m on a Waterford site.

*€2.1m on land in Dungarvan.

*€2.9m on land in Cavan.

*€1.8m on a site in Thomastown, Kilkenny, intended for 83 Health and Safety Authority staff.

*€1.5m on land in Edenderry for 44 FETAC staff and 34 HETAC staff.

*€967,500 on land in Thurles.

It hasn't gone away...no doubt it'll be warmed up before the next election.

Anyone know how much extra staff were hired in anticipation of populating these offices?

NewDubliner · 04-05-2009 7:41am

From Today's Irish Times:

5,000 public servants stay put as decentralisation is unlikely
STEPHEN COLLINS

LATEST OFFICIAL figures show that plans to decentralise over 5,000 public servants have been deferred, while just 2,500 people have moved under the plan announced in 2003.

The figures from the Department of Finance show that another 3,500 public servants are still in the process of being decentralised but have not yet been moved.

Plans to move 5,140 people to 50 locations were deferred in the Budget and it is now widely accepted that the moves will never take place.
.....more

Odd that if the idea of decentralisation is supposed to save money, it's being cancelled because it costs too much.

ixoy · 04-05-2009 1:24pm

I seem to recall that if someone didn't want to move with their de-centralised department, they could opt out into another area - any figures on how many extra staff then the government had to employ as a result?

What an utter shambles that benefited so few people.

dresden8 · 04-05-2009 2:30pm

ixoy wrote: »

What an utter shambles that benefited so few people.

That just about sums up Ireland since 1997.

The_Conductor · 04-05-2009 5:07pm

In all fairness- the banking crisis has bolloxed up things even for the privilleged few- the only people who have benefited are those who cashed in their chips and emigrated. Looking at the bust in Spain and Portugal too though- unless the lucky few kept the bulk of their assets in cash or treasury bonds- they are screwed no matter what they did.

I really hope that people see politicians for the charletans they are- I don't blame Fianna Fail tbh- I don't think Irish politicians have the stomach to govern. Our big problem is parochial politics- but it always has been. The culture where every little village is against the next village- who in turn feed into the county- and its county against county- and then the rest of the country against Dublin as a whole...... Its amazing anything happens in the dysfunctional mess.........

mike65 · 04-05-2009 5:41pm

So then how many departments now have additional offices scattered about the place?

Dinarius · 04-05-2009 6:22pm

ixoy wrote: »

What an utter shambles that benefited so few people.

Yup.

....along with PPARS, Electronic Voting, the HSE, the Financial Regulator (when the Central Bank should have been left to do the job that the Regulator failed utterly to do) etc...etc....

But, 40% of us persist in voting for these criminals.

And thanks to the montsrous hubris of the ("you're either with us or against us") Green Party, we are soon to have a Broadcasting Authority of Ireland that will sit in parallel with ComReg. Incredible! Why couldn't they just broaden the remit of ComReg?

The Greens are demonstrating that they are as good at creating quangos as F.F.

But, I'm straying off topic........apologies to the moderator.

D.

Firetrap · 05-05-2009 12:33am

Problem is that no party has the guts to turn around and cancel the whole thing for fear of upsetting voters in the towns pinpointed for decentralisation.

The_Conductor · 05-05-2009 10:13am

Firetrap wrote: »

Problem is that no party has the guts to turn around and cancel the whole thing for fear of upsetting voters in the towns pinpointed for decentralisation.

The money quite simply isn't there. Given the uproar thats going to hit the media with the Children's Allowance announcement later today- and the other announcements due for next week- there is plenty of opportunity to parcel it with other worse news, and it'll get less scrutiny than it might otherwise do.

Our poor little country is screwed.......

Dinarius · 05-05-2009 6:32pm

Firetrap wrote: »

Problem is that no party has the guts to turn around and cancel the whole thing for fear of upsetting voters in the towns pinpointed for decentralisation.

Precisely. And why? Because of our stupid multi-seater system.

Every Thursday afternoon the cretins fall over one another in a race to get back to their constituencies first lest a competitor sort our Johnny's planning application, speeding fine, welfare application......whatever you're having yourself.

They're slaves to their constituents. If we were a real democracy with single seater constituencies, they could leave local politics to local politicians (i.e. city and county councillors) and get on with running this place.

They are first and foremost legislators, but you'd never think it.

D.

NewDubliner · 23-07-2009 7:51pm

From last week's 'Times' (UK):

Rural staff paid €1m travel costs
Civil servants travelling to the Republic capital for training received up to €12,000 compensation each
Colin Coyle

The government has spent more than €1m compensating 270 rural civil servants for travelling to Dublin to train before being decentralised.
...As decentralisation was not limited to civil servants working in the capital — staff already living in rural areas have been able to move to departments based in other parts of the country. First they had to be retrained in Dublin.
...
Decentralisation was originally designed to move civil servants out of the capital, but about half of the 10,000 who signed up for the scheme worked outside the capital....

The number of staff requesting a move from one rural area to another has added to difficulties with the programme. The government has spent almost €250m moving 2,500 civil servants out of Dublin, with moves for 5,000 more deferred. About 3,500 employees are currently being decentralised.

Given the unemployment situation in Dublin, how will FF justify paying people from outside Dublin to come and take the work of Dubliners?

The_Conductor · 23-07-2009 8:16pm

NewDubliner wrote: »

Given the unemployment situation in Dublin, how will FF justify paying people from outside Dublin to come and take the work of Dubliners?

Unfortunately- you know as well as I do that its all parochial politics. Fianna Fail aren't going to even try to justify anything to Dublin voters- in the grand scale of things- they will hold up those jobs they delivered to every little rural constituency as 'victories' against the Dublin jackeens. Seriously though- its actually quite alarming the hatred that many rural people have for Dublin- along with the manner every little town expects to have its own hospital and every possible facility and amenity. Is it any wonder we're borrowing 25 billion this year- and 19% of our total tax take in 2010 is going to be spent on servicing our national debt (26% in 2011, 34% in 2012 etc........)

The government- for all its failings, and by god its got many, has as its worst inditement a total failure to communicate with the public, and offer leadership of any nature whatsoever. At very best they have used firefighting tactics as they bounce from one emergency to another- at very worst they have percipitated the very emergencies that they are so poor at addressing.

Its almost laughable how politicians are drip feeding information, theories and scaremongering to the media- so we have the employed at loggerheads with the unemployed who have far more disposable income than they- we have the private sector versus the public sector- along with the myriad stories of waste and sloth, we have the taxpayers versus the fatcat bankers- and then when its all beginning to wear thin- they release the McCarthy report and allow Colm McCarthy to take the flak for a while- sure, he'll get off the hook as soon as the Commission on Taxation report in September......... Did anyone notice how there were no government spokespeople available to give a commentary on the Bord Snip report? Hardly an accident.........

So- the Shannon region has lost another 300 jobs, Intel in Leixlip has dropped 300 (and this was flagged months in advance here on Boards), there are single dole offices in some Dublin areas that have larger numbers of unemployed requiring benefits than multiple rural counties combined- but they're kept understaffed- and its the poor staff who get the flak.......

Its a great pity there is no mechanism for impeaching the government.

Liam Byrne · 23-07-2009 8:50pm

pete wrote: »

Who said anything about moving to get a new job? Jobs are being moved with no regard for the service, skills or wishes of the current jobholder.

Sounds like something someone from Dell would say.....do Ryanair do commutes to Poland ?

NewDubliner · 26-07-2009 6:17pm

Call for reversal of decentralisation

From the Irish Times Online:

Professor John Fitzgerald of the Economic and Social Research Institute has called for a complete reversal of the Government’s decentralisation policy.

Mr Fitzgerald described the policy as a “disaster” which would ultimately make the public sector much less efficient.

Speaking to RTÉ radio today, Mr Fitzgerald said: “When you are dealing with Government offices which are outside of Dublin it takes much longer to get responses to get action.

“We’ve acknowledged that we have had a disaster in banking...lets acknowledge this. Reverse it and try and build a productive efficient public service out of this mess."

Mr Fitzgerald said that while a lot of the public service actually “works well”, in the future it will have to work “better than ever” with less resources.

“It’s a question of saving money in the long run,” he added

I can see problems ahead, implementing Bord Snip, if if turns out that some towns will lose their 'decentalisation' trophy offices. The lobbying will be fierce. As usual, Dublin workers will probably take the hit, to protect jobs in marginal rural constituencies.

The 'decentralisation' project was, in part, inspired by building interests, anxious to cash in on thousands of house moves and hundreds of new office developments. It's a fine example of the way the government squandered the boom.

The_Conductor · 26-07-2009 7:07pm

NewDubliner wrote: »

Call for reversal of decentralisation

I can see problems ahead, implementing Bord Snip, if if turns out that some towns will lose their 'decentalisation' trophy offices. The lobbying will be fierce. As usual, Dublin workers will probably take the hit, to protect jobs in marginal rural constituencies.

The 'decentralisation' project was, in part, inspired by building interests, anxious to cash in on thousands of house moves and hundreds of new office developments. It's a fine example of the way the government squandered the boom.

You already have war- look at the Department of Agriculture staff in Galway and Ballinasloe whose jobs were 'decentralised' to Portlaoise......? (I'm not even going to mention Carrick-on-Shannon and the Longford debacle.......)

NewDubliner · 26-07-2009 7:16pm

smccarrick wrote: »

You already have war- look at the Department of Agriculture staff in Galway and Ballinasloe whose jobs were 'decentralised' to Portlaoise......? (I'm not even going to mention Carrick-on-Shannon and the Longford debacle.......)

I can well understand moving the jobs to Portlaoise, it's in Cowen's consituency. As MoF, didn't he move large chunks of Finance to Tuallmore?

But, don't we need extra dole clerks in Dublin?

gurramok · 26-07-2009 7:18pm

Decentralised from Galway?!

I had thought that decentralisation was a move away from Dublin thing. Bloody hell, Galway and Ballinasloe are already decentralised locations!!

The_Conductor · 26-07-2009 7:27pm

NewDubliner wrote: »

I can well understand moving the jobs to Portlaoise, it's in Cowen's consituency. As MoF, didn't he move large chunks of Finance to Tuallmore?

But, don't we need extra dole clerks in Dublin?

Its depressing.......

Ireland's downfall is parochial politics- pure and simple. There is no cognisance of what 'Ireland' needs, whats good for 'Ireland'- its all what can our little village or town get from 'our fellah' who we voted in.

Personally I think we need to totally revisit how politics works in the country- possibly be greatly reducing the number of ministers- and introducing a list system for deputies, so they represent 'Ireland' and not Dingle Co. Kerry.......

The other massive problem is a total inability on the part of the government to communicate with the public- who they are supposed to be representing....... we need capable leadership from politicians who have the guts to make the hard decisions that they must do, if this country is to recover, and stand by those decisions- instead of hanging out Colm McCarthy, the ESRI or civil servants to dry- over hard decisions that will have to be made...........

Riskymove · 27-07-2009 9:44am

gurramok wrote: »

I had thought that decentralisation was a move away from Dublin thing.

this is a common problem in ireland it seems, we call things by completely inappropriate names

In just about any academic theory, decentralisation means delegating out power from the centre (e.g. from central government to local government). It has nothing to do with moving people around.

What we have is relocation of staff nothing more (the OECD report called it administrative relocation or something like that)

the sheer scale and design of this plan was always going to lead to major problems, especially as there was never any proper consultation or planning. Years on and its a shambles and is still affecting the structure and operation of Departments

It should be scrapped at this point, why wait and leave the uncertainty?

The_Conductor · 27-07-2009 10:23am

Riskymove wrote: »

It should be scrapped at this point, why wait and leave the uncertainty?

What about all the buildings that have been contracted out- the buildings in Dublin that were sold, the vacant properties around Dublin- and around the country?

While there aren't all that many civil servants compared to our population size (around 36,500), there is as a result of government policy- accommodation for over 50,000 civil servants. How do we divest ourselves of this excess building space and capacity- in the most cost effective manner? Politically its going to be interesting telling a community that their vacant government building is never going to be used- yet this is what needs to be done.........

Riskymove · 27-07-2009 11:25am

smccarrick wrote: »

What about all the buildings that have been contracted out- the buildings in Dublin that were sold, the vacant properties around Dublin- and around the country?

obviously in cases where buildings are built/bought and people are in place, we might as well finish that move

there are still many moves planned that we all know wont happen or wont happen for a long time yet Departments have to operate on the basis that they are (people have to sign up to move to work there etc) which is pointless.

Moves still in the future should be cancelled and we can return to phased relocation like we had before as appropriate

The_Conductor · 27-07-2009 12:01pm

Riskymove wrote: »

obviously in cases where buildings are built/bought and people are in place, we might as well finish that move

In most cases- very few people were recruited for decentralised jobs- the majority were relocations from one already decentralised location to another. It has meant there are some areas with massive problems- because so many people wanted to move elsewhere (Social Welfare being the obvious case in point).

Riskymove wrote: »

there are still many moves planned that we all know wont happen or wont happen for a long time yet Departments have to operate on the basis that they are (people have to sign up to move to work there etc) which is pointless.

There were hundreds of millions spent on property that will never be of any economic use. I suppose at least we now have an asset disposal agency- NAMA. Whats a couple of hundred million more- when they've got 90 billion on their books?

Riskymove wrote: »

Moves still in the future should be cancelled and we can return to phased relocation like we had before as appropriate

Phased relocation?
Ireland had a series of decentralisation programmes- going all the way back to the 1960s. There was only ever a small proportion of the civil service actually based in Dublin- this is something the media have consistently failed to acknowledge. The reason so many of the successful decentralisations were simply people moving from one already decentralised location to another- is that the civil service was already pretty well decentralised to begin with........

What do you mean by 'phased relocation'? Allowing civilservants move elsewhere in other regional locations- from posts that are already decentralised? At least calling it a 'Phased Relocation' would be honest- you can't decentralise something thats already decentralised after all........

NewDubliner · 27-07-2009 6:04pm

Riskymove wrote: »

obviously in cases where buildings are built/bought and people are in place, we might as well finish that move

Even where the departments/agencies in question might be abolished by Bord Snip? You want to move people there, then close the office and move/redeploy them again?

You ignore the fact that the cost of not moving might be less than the cost of the inefficiencies caused by the move and the inflexibility it will cause to further reform of staffing.

Riskymove · 27-07-2009 6:45pm

NewDubliner wrote: »

Even where the departments/agencies in question might be abolished by Bord Snip? You want to move people there, then close the office and move/redeploy them again?

of course not...sorry if i did not consider every possibility before making a general comment!

no I am talking about Departments primarily as the vast majority of agencies were not going due to ongoing issues

I am also talking about situations where people have come to Dublin in preparation to go to a regional location and the building is in place

I am very familiar with an organisation which now has about 100 people in a location as advanced staff, another 150 in dublin (at least half who have come to dublin and want to go) ready to move and the new building is almost complete.

In that case finish the move.

that same org is also due to move to other locations but nowhere near as advanced plans so cancel them

Riskymove · 27-07-2009 6:47pm

smccarrick wrote: »

Phased relocation?
Ireland had a series of decentralisation programmes- going all the way back to the 1960s. There was only ever a small proportion of the civil service actually based in Dublin- this is something the media have consistently failed to acknowledge. The reason so many of the successful decentralisations were simply people moving from one already decentralised location to another- is that the civil service was already pretty well decentralised to begin with........

What do you mean by 'phased relocation'? Allowing civilservants move elsewhere in other regional locations- from posts that are already decentralised? At least calling it a 'Phased Relocation' would be honest- you can't decentralise something thats already decentralised after all........

yes i mean have "decentralisation" as it used to be on an appropriate scale from time to time but on some better grounds not just where a Minister's constituency is.

depending on the numbers when this plan ends, it may never happen again.

NewDubliner · 27-07-2009 8:15pm

Riskymove wrote: »

I am very familiar with an organisation which now has about 100 people in a location as advanced staff, another 150 in dublin (at least half who have come to dublin and want to go) ready to move and the new building is almost complete.

What happens if the department is abolished or part of a function is transferred to another department? Centralised staffing resources are much more flexible.

The project was intended as a subsidy for non-economically-viable towns in consituencies loyal to FF. We can't afford that kind of thing any more.

Riskymove · 28-07-2009 9:44am

NewDubliner wrote: »

What happens if the department is abolished or part of a function is transferred to another department? Centralised staffing resources are much more flexible.

The project was intended as a subsidy for non-economically-viable towns in consituencies loyal to FF. We can't afford that kind of thing any more.

we are all aware of the issues which have been there from the start but people's lives have been messed around enough. In this case the building has been built and there are 150 people who want to move to it, many of whom have been commuting to Dublin from the regions for a few years now while family are elsewhere waiting. Those sort of situations should be completed.

NewDubliner · 28-07-2009 6:07pm

Riskymove wrote: »

we are all aware of the issues which have been there from the start but people's lives have been messed around enough. In this case the building has been built and there are 150 people who want to move to it, many of whom have been commuting to Dublin from the regions for a few years now while family are elsewhere waiting. Those sort of situations should be completed.

There will be many hard luck cases as cuts are made in uneconomic activities...sorry.

NewDubliner · 09-09-2009 5:29pm

Lots of unpopular truths spoken today at today's economic think-in, including this:

Meanwhile ESRI economist John Fitzgerald strongly criticised the Government’s decentralisation programme as a “disaster”.

He said it was causing chaos in the public sector. “People who know about it cannot speak about it because they are public servants,” he said. “They tried this in Burma and sent all the civil servants out into the jungle. And look at Burma. It cannot work where people are split up and sent around the country.”

He said one British observer he spoke to over the summer had said overseas development aid had been “messed up” by transferring staff to Limerick.

Mr Fitzgerald said staff dealing with climate change policy in the Department of Environment had “jumped ship” rather than be transferred to Wexford and replacement staff in this area were now retiring early.

Will Cowen reduce staff from among those he moved into his own constituency?

mike kelly · 20-09-2009 4:22pm

Better still, send Cowen and his Ministers into the jungle.

cyclopath2001 · 21-07-2010 7:40am

From the 'Indo', July 21:

A LEADING academic has denounced decentralisation as a failed strategy which has undermined the institutional fabric of the state and become a charter for mileage claims, writes Anita Guidera.

Professor Brigid Laffin, principal of the college of humanities at UCD, told the MacGill Summer School in Glenties, Co Donegal, yesterday that failures of accountability went beyond unethical behaviour to the performance of public institutions and those holding positions of responsibility.

Citing the example of the 2003 decentralisation project, she said there was not a single developed country in the world that would have treated its public institutions the way they were treated in the decentralisation process.

When the election comes, will FF be telling Dubliners that one of its key policies is to take jobs away from Dublin and to increase the cost of public administration and make it less efficient? (And to tax Dubliners' houses to pay for it....)

Decentralisation

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