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New Country

  • 16-07-2014 11:39am
    #1
    motivation
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭


    Is it possible to create a country within a country if you own the land?


    This is a real question so no spamming please


Comments

  • #2
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    No because it still falls under the sovereignty of the State. You're looking for Terra nullius. While a few places in Ireland may seem godforsaken, they are still sovereign soil/concrete/bare rock.


  • #3
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    I think Christiania in Denmark is an example of a place which tried to secede from the government of denmark but couldnt quite and just ended up being ignored until some land prices went up.

    Often you hear of first nation people, or native americans, or aboriginals trying to declare their own sovereignty for their reservation or region. But it is more publicity stunts than anything.


  • #4
    motivation
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭motivation


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    No because it still falls under the sovereignty of the State. You're looking for Terra nullius. While a few places in Ireland may seem godforsaken, they are still sovereign soil/concrete/bare rock.

    Under International Law you can once you have a Population, Government, agreement wont fight with other states

    So you can


  • #5
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Yeah, that how it works. The Republic of Cork being a prime example...


  • #6
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    motivation wrote: »
    Under International Law you can once you have a Population, Government, agreement wont fight with other states

    So you can
    Not sure why you needed to ask the question then :rolleyes:

    States can secede from each other (although even that is controversial) but all require some form of legitimacy to underpin their independence. This typically comes from a popular national mandate but can also be recognition by international powers. Land ownership, whether in an established country or not, has not been accepted as a criteria for this since the days of imperialism in Africa.


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  • #7
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    motivation wrote: »
    Is it possible to create a country within a country if you own the land?


    This is a real question so no spamming please
    No and it could be counted as treason.


  • #8
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #9
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    motivation wrote: »
    Is it possible to create a country within a country if you own the land?


    This is a real question so no spamming please

    Yes, if you force the current Government/Ruler of that land (as well as other countries) to recognise it as free and independent or say you're an independent country and the other country isn't in a position to force you to stop acting like or force you to collect taxes for them (e.g. Taiwan with its protectors, mainly the US). Otherwise, no.


    In reality it doesn't matter if you claim to be an independent state if another country can freely collect taxes etc in there and can enforce this, e.g. the Basque region is very much still part of France and Spain.


  • #10
    Swan Curry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Swan Curry


    You'll occasionally hear of some mad libertarians founding a new state in the middle of the ocean but it's usually just another method for them to try not pay tax.I did hear some American guy recently claimed himself as king of some miniscule part of Africa to fulfil his daughter's dream of being a princess.


  • #11
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Two great examples of this are Sealand and Filettino. The former is a oil rig off the coast of the UK, and the latter is a small village in Italy. As far as I know, both are internationally unrecognised.

    One thing to think about is that all states had to start somewhere. It's unlikely that a small commune in Leitrim would become an internationally recognised nation, but weirder things have happened in the history of politics.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filettino


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  • #12
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Swan Curry wrote: »
    You'll occasionally hear of some mad libertarians founding a new state in the middle of the ocean but it's usually just another method for them to try not pay tax.I did hear some American guy recently claimed himself as king of some miniscule part of Africa to fulfil his daughter's dream of being a princess.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/va-man-plants-flag-claims-african-country-calling-it-kingdom-of-north-sudan/2014/07/12/abfbcef2-09fc-11e4-8a6a-19355c7e870a_story.html

    Kingdom of North Sudan, picking up some unclaimed territory between Egypt and Sudan

    here: http://goo.gl/maps/yDGBe


  • #13
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #14
    motivation
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭motivation


    So technical yes I can but it won't have a big influence on the world. Can this country be tax free for those who live in it and have a passport ? Can this country have police who are armed and can the government of this country make the law?


  • #15
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    motivation wrote: »
    So technical yes I can but it won't have a big influence on the world. Can this country be tax free for those who live in it and have a passport ? Can this country have police who are armed and can the government of this country make the law?

    If it's within the territory of an existing country, that country will invoke its right to collect any relevant taxes and enforce its firearms legislation.

    Why are you asking?


  • #16
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why are you asking?

    Freedom for Cavan or death?


  • #17
    motivation
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭motivation


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If it's within the territory of an existing country, that country will invoke its right to collect any relevant taxes and enforce its firearms legislation.

    Why are you asking?

    Are you sure? If its a sovereign country then they would have no rights? like Britain and Ireland


  • #18
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #19
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    motivation wrote: »
    Are you sure? If its a sovereign country then they would have no rights? like Britain and Ireland
    Wanting your farm to be a sovereign country doesn't make it one.

    I'll ask again: why?


  • #20
    Valmont
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭Valmont


    The long and short of it is that if any given state were to allow the secession of minor territories then sooner or later that state would cease to exist as it would no longer have the 'right' to rob tax the citizens of the new sovereign farm/housing estate. Interesting cases where something like this has existed are Neutral Morsenet in the 1800s or the Principality of Hutt River in Western Australia.


  • #21
    GaelMise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭GaelMise


    motivation wrote: »
    Are you sure? If its a sovereign country then they would have no rights?

    Well I suppose you could declare independance and then declare that you will automatically adopt all of the country you have declared independance from's laws, and 'voluntarly' allow their courts juristction, and free access to their army/police etc. Not much they could do about that.


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  • #22
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #23
    sin_city
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 ✭✭✭sin_city


    If you operate a business on a street where the mafia collects protection money for their "services" then no, you can't just leave the street and set up a new address...The mafia will threaten you and lock you up and maybe worse if you do stuff like that.


  • #24
    motivation
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭motivation


    The government doesn't own the land therefore they only have the right to tax on a monetary level. They don't tax land so they would have nothing to gain from stopping it I suppose.

    I think this is very possible once a defined territory is laid down. You that person then become a King for example?


  • #25
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    motivation wrote: »
    The government doesn't own the land...
    It's not about ownership, it's about sovereignty. A state doesn't exist on the basis of private property rights, but on the basis of international law.
    I think this is very possible once a defined territory is laid down. You that person then become a King for example?
    I'm still wondering why you're asking. You said in the OP that it's a "real question", but you've framed it in hypothetical terms throughout.

    Are you planning to establish a kingdom somewhere?


  • #26
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #27
    eigrod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭eigrod


    I thought this was what Charlie Haughey did with Inis Vickillane :D


  • #28
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,688 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    That's the nub of your problem there OP. If you declare your farm or land holding as being 'independent' of the State then that's fine work away, the State won't take any notice of you. But fail to pay your taxes to said State and then you've got a problem- you're a country now so you need to assert your independence by successfully securing your borders from all agents of the State- Revenue, Gardai, Military. As you don't have any military grade hardware to defend your fledgling nation you'll soon be over run. They'll lock you up eventually if you keep refusing to pay your taxes, after which your new nation will have it's leader incarsarated in Mountjoy. Your only hope then for your new country is if they shoot you and you become a martyr and win the PR war. But I reckon the whole thing would crumble OP, don't do it.


  • #29
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    motivation wrote: »
    The government doesn't own the land

    Actually it, or to be more exact "the State", does own all the land.

    It took over that ownership from the crown some time back.


  • #30
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    eigrod wrote: »
    I thought this was what Charlie Haughey did with Inis Vickillane :D

    I think some guy tried something like the OP is on about in the Shetlands a few years back. He doesn't seem to be getting far anyway

    Actually there's an existing one as well, any place that bans Bon Jovi is good for me and it seems to attract tourists.

    I suppose the problem is the state isn't going to agree with it and then you start entering freemen type territory. Not paying taxes and all that but using roads and other services that the state provided for the area. Also if you get sick you can't avail of free public hospitals or anything like that, would be a bit hypocritical otherwise!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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