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Reform Alliance - The New PDs

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    #32
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    COYW wrote: »
    Well they won't from now on. FF introduced divorce, FG legislated for abortion. No true social conservative would vote for either of them on those grounds alone. FF and FG are as socially liberally as Labour, SF and the rest. The likes of the CSP haven't got the political experience or know-how to perform on the national stage. This group of TDs, potential new party, are wise to the ways of the political world.

    .....it was FG for divorce.


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    #33
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    COYW wrote: »
    If we want change and diversity in politics in this country, then a party which is socially conservative provides us with that.

    I think they'd provide reversal more so.


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    #34
    COYW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    Nodin wrote: »
    I think they'd provide reversal more so.

    Like it or not, that wouldn't be a bad thing in the eyes of a section of the population, the older generation in particular.

    Jeez, I always remember divorce as something FF introduced under their watch. Good oul John Bruton it was, you are correct. I recall Garret Fitz's initial referendum in 1986. FF have blurred my view of the 90s. :)


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    #35
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    nesf wrote: »
    Corrupt has a very specific meaning in politics. If you say X is corrupt everyone will automatically read that as "X is on the take." People misuse the word all the time for effect. That doesn't mean it's changed meaning.

    So, nothing on the substance of what I was saying, just a debate on semantics?


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    #36
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    COYW wrote: »
    Like it or not, that wouldn't be a bad thing in the eyes of a section of the population, the older generation in particular.

    Jeez, I always remember divorce as something FF introduced under their watch. Good oul John Bruton it was, you are correct. I recall Garret Fitz's initial referendum in 1986. FF have blurred my view of the 90s. :)



    ....well if you threw a stick into Irish history since independence, odds are you'd hit an FF government, so you can't be blamed for that.


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    #37
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    COYW wrote: »
    Like it or not, that wouldn't be a bad thing in the eyes of a section of the population, the older generation in particular.

    ...however, unlike some opposing economic view points, the fact is that we've actually tried social conservatism, and it was less than pleasant. It's a failed ideology.


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    #38
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    So, nothing on the substance of what I was saying, just a debate on semantics?

    O'Malley never struck me as a parish pump type politician, maybe you've some examples to prove whatever point you are trying to make on this thread?

    As to the Reform Alliance, I don't see how much support they will gather in what seems to me to be a conservative social attitude of defending the current status quo, even Kenny and FG u-turned on that as regards abortion.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #39
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    K-9 wrote: »
    O'Malley never struck me as a parish pump type politician, maybe you've some examples to prove whatever point you are trying to make on this thread?

    As to the Reform Alliance, I don't see how much support they will gather in what seems to me to be a conservative social attitude of defending the current status quo, even Kenny and FG u-turned on that as regards abortion.

    The point being that the PDs talked a big game but were ultimately no different to the other parties. I can't see the Reform Alliance being anything significantly different.


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    #40
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    So, nothing on the substance of what I was saying, just a debate on semantics?

    It's hardly semantics. Calling someone in politics corrupt is very serious.


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    #41
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    What exactly are they planning to reform? Did they just pick two words out of a hat (like "Progressive Democrats")?


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    #42
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    The point being that the PDs talked a big game but were ultimately no different to the other parties. I can't see the Reform Alliance being anything significantly different.

    I think when O'Malley left that was the start of the downfall. FG and FF adopted the same low tax policies that made the PD's so successful initially, and as you say they weren't that different in the end.

    Once McCreevy left Government it didn't seem they had that much influence on power, Ahern discovered "socialism" and barring private/public enterprise schemes, I can't remember anything else the PD's achieved after that. McDowell and his cafe bar idea and suggesting slashing stamp duty to keep the bubble going, and the Minister whose name escape me introducing decentralisation, all failures.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #43
    BOHtox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭BOHtox


    There's definitely a gap in the demand for a party to the right of Fine Gael economically and to the left of them socially


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    #44
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    The point being that the PDs talked a big game but were ultimately no different to the other parties.

    Correction:
    The other parties took on the PDs position.... Thus making them less relevent.

    The PDs did not become like anyone else.... The rest gravitated towards them.


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    #45
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    Correction:
    The other parties took on the PDs position.... Thus making them less relevent.

    The PDs did not become like anyone else.... The rest gravitated towards them.

    This. I've a feeling that Johnny is under 30 and doesn't remember what politics was like when the PDs arose. The social conservatism and fiscal inflexibility of the time were so very different to what we have today and what we have today in terms of both to some extent come from FF, FG and to a lesser extent Labour stealing the PDs clothes after seeing the PDs have a good election.

    The PDs were certainly not angels and certainly didn't do no harm but the idea that they never stood for anything of substance is worryingly revisionist or ignorant depending on who's saying it.


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    #46
    Palmach
    Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭Palmach


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    Correction:
    The other parties took on the PDs position.... Thus making them less relevent.

    The PDs did not become like anyone else.... The rest gravitated towards them.

    Correct. No one outside of the loony left now talks about 70% tax which we had before the PDs arrived. I also remeber being fleeced by Aer Lingus and Telecom Eireann once upon a time. It would be unthinkable now to have such a closed shop.


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    #47
    Mykola
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭Mykola


    Lucinda is odd, She is only 30 ish but she dresses like a 60 year old and she married a 60 year old too.


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    #48
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Mykola wrote: »
    Lucinda is odd, She is only 30 ish but she dresses like a 60 year old and she married a 60 year old too.

    33, 49


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    #49
    Palmach
    Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Mykola wrote: »
    Lucinda is odd, She is only 30 ish but she dresses like a 60 year old and she married a 60 year old too.

    And the relevance of this is?


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    #50
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Palmach wrote: »
    And the relevance of this is?

    Random dig at a politician? This is the Politics forum after all.


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    #51
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    nesf wrote: »
    Random dig at a politician? This is the Politics forum after all.


    ....bit haberdashery and lifestyle focused to qualify though.


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    #52
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    I hate this revisionism of the PDs. They were just as populist and spendthrift as FF and did nothing to curb spending.

    While this ultimately was true, it does not mean that the ideals professed by the PDs need have been stillborn.

    I think a real shakeup of the Irish political landscape is required. Will this potential grouping be the answer? It's unlikely. Is it a start? Perhaps...


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    #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    While this ultimately was true, it does not mean that the ideals professed by the PDs need have been stillborn.

    I think a real shakeup of the Irish political landscape is required. Will this potential grouping be the answer? It's unlikely. Is it a start? Perhaps...



    ....there's nothing among the personnel to suggest its a start either, tbh. Most would be happy back in FG. LC may or not share the sentiment, but Enda may not be too willing to take her back, given their fractious relationship.


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    #54
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....there's nothing among the personnel to suggest its a start either, tbh. Most would be happy back in FG. LC may or not share the sentiment, but Enda may not be too willing to take her back, given their fractious relationship.

    Unfortunately, too much is predicated on LC - and the only particularly beneficial aspect that she can add to a NEW political grouping is opposition to the whip system. The reasons for her leaving Fine Gael hardly inspire one with confidence otherwise.


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    #55
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, too much is predicated on LC - and the only particularly beneficial aspect that she can add to a NEW political grouping is opposition to the whip system. The reasons for her leaving Fine Gael hardly inspire one with confidence otherwise.


    ....but even that opposition is muddied. The fact is that she and others voted against something that had been approved by two specific referenda by the public. I've yet to hear her musings on her right to freedom of conscience weighed against what was literally the voice of the voting public. Had she and the rest merely wanted to abstain, I'd have had far more time for their position.


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    #56
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,508 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    You can't be an honest fiscal conservative in this country and expect to ever see yourself head a government. The next election will be the same as always, parties trying to outbid each other with undeliverable promises.


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    #57
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,008 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Don't want to get into gender stereotyping, but I'm guessing Lucinda's pregnancy means the project encapsulated in the thread title is off the agenda for now. Are there any other great white hopes on the right who might step into the breach?


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    #58
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    COYW wrote: »
    You do realize that a section of the voting Irish public, like any modern society, is conservative in nature? No party in this country caters for that vote. The Dail is flooded with TDs who are socially liberal.

    If we want change and diversity in politics in this country, then a party which is socially conservative provides us with that.

    Unlike in the north the southern Irish voting public is not socially conservative; infact they are socially liberal to an almost nihilistic degree- the Dail being flooded with socially liberal TDs just reflects that; social liberalism its perfectly into the present day organization of capitalism in this country and so anybody to seriously oppose it (as opposed to just mouthing slogans at election time like the Republican Party in the USA to deceive naive religious folk) would be swimming against the tide. Strengthening the family would involve giving job security, wages such that both husband and wife dont have to work and seriously counter-acting American influences that are corrupting our children to mention just a few things; I would like to see these people or the likes of Dana advocate any of those.


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    #59
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,008 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Unlike in the north the southern Irish voting public is not socially conservative; infact they are socially liberal to an almost nihilistic degree

    Plus when Ireland was genuinely socially conservative 20, 25 years ago, people like Gerard Casey and Nora Bennis who came forward on a pro-life, pro-family platform got miniscule votes. Can't see how such candidates would be any more successful now.


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    #60
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    dsmythy wrote: »
    You can't be an honest fiscal conservative in this country and expect to ever see yourself head a government.
    You don't have to head a government to dominate it. Labour and the PDs proved that, as FF and FG spent more time trying to decide what jobs their supporters got rather than focus on policies.

    At the moment there is no fiscal conservative party to vote for. There's a gap there to pick up a large vote from those people who work for a living rather than expect handouts - maybe not enough for a majority, but enough to get into government and start relieving the burden on taxpayers.


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    #61
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Unlike in the north the southern Irish voting public is not socially conservative; infact they are socially liberal to an almost nihilistic degree- the Dail being flooded with socially liberal TDs just reflects that; social liberalism its perfectly into the present day organization of capitalism in this country and so anybody to seriously oppose it (as opposed to just mouthing slogans at election time like the Republican Party in the USA to deceive naive religious folk) would be swimming against the tide. Strengthening the family would involve giving job security, wages such that both husband and wife dont have to work and seriously counter-acting American influences that are corrupting our children to mention just a few things; I would like to see these people or the likes of Dana advocate any of those.

    Anyone else notice the floods of social libertarianns flooding the Dail???

    .... no, me neither.

    We are socially decades behind the rest of Europe, our parliament & its make-up reflects that.


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