Lisbon - NO ; Cash for Pig Idustry - Yes Please

The_Minister · 09-12-2008 1:12pm

Del2005 wrote: »

If you consider how much fish the other EU countries have taken from our waters we haven't got that much money from the EU.

If you look in the EU forum you wil see that this arguement has been taken apart numerous times. We got bac far more than we gave them.

Also we aren't the only people to reject Lisbon, every country that had a public vote rejected it. It only passed in countries where the politions voted and they nearly all said they didn't think it would pass a public vote.

Actually, no.
Two of the countries that voted on it passed it, and overall more people voted for it.
Some countries are actually forbidden from having a referendum by their constitution.

The_Conductor · 09-12-2008 1:14pm

What I would like to know is why the company who precipitated the debacle are not being held culpable for any financial damages arising from the mess? They screwed up- why is it up to the government or Europe to bail them, and the industry out? Ultimately- even if its an EU bailout- we are all EU taxpayers, and will pay for it one way or another. Surely this company has some sort of indemnity insurance to cover themselves against any unforeseen events arising out of their (now known to be) tainted food supplies?

Why are they not being held responsible for their actions?

As a total aside- I understand its a family run business, with the ironic surname of "Hogg"........

Nehaxak · 09-12-2008 1:14pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Precisely, you have it, this whole pork thing was orchestrated by the Government and EU ministers at a secret meeting last week, there is probably nothing wrong with our pork, its all a ploy to get our the Irish to bend over back wards. Well timed.

Strange thing about the Irish though, push us too far and we'll just tell them all to Fck off with themselves. Protest to get the government out then vote Sinn Fein in with a 90% landslide victory, next referendum we'll vote no with an 80% vote against and a 90% turnout, proceed to ask for a vote on continued EU membership then vote ourselves out of the EU and open up trade agreements with China, Russia and South American countries along with creating a trade swap agreement with Venezuela for their oil and Cuba for their Doctors, sacking all the consultants in Ireland and banishing Mary Harney to Dalkey Island for ten years.

I'm going out for a smoke...

passive · 09-12-2008 1:24pm

smccarrick wrote: »

What I would like to know is why the company who precipitated the debacle are not being held culpable for any financial damages arising from the mess?

it came out like 3 days ago. Hold your horses pigs.

Run_to_da_hills · 09-12-2008 1:43pm

passive wrote: »

Aha! I've been waiting for you! *grenade*

+1 for sanity...

Im not over yet, if we vote YES give it a couple of years and we will be all branded like pigs. :pac:

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 1:46pm

An update on this from RTE, the EU have said we will not be getting any money from the EU to sort this out...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1209/pork.html

techdiver · 09-12-2008 1:48pm

RobBrn wrote: »

How ridiculous can we get.
We said no to Lisbon.
We are perceived throughout the EU as rejecting the EU by that one
Now we would like the EU to bail out the problems in the pig industry in Ireland.

For 30 years the EU poured vast amounts of money into Ireland.
And then the Irish People bit the hand that fed them.
Always something advised against.

We could be hanging on to the edge of the EU or even worse in the coming months
Can we really expect the EU to give us money now?

If we vote NO on an internal referendum such as an ammendment to our own constitution to allow for new laws does that makes us anti-Irish?

Voting no to a referendum does not stand for a complete rejection of the EU, that attitude is part of the initial problem in the first place!

Jesus1222 · 09-12-2008 2:02pm

RobBrn wrote: »

How ridiculous can we get.
We said no to Lisbon.
We are perceived throughout the EU as rejecting the EU by that one
Now we would like the EU to bail out the problems in the pig industry in Ireland.

For 30 years the EU poured vast amounts of money into Ireland.
And then the Irish People bit the hand that fed them.
Always something advised against.

We could be hanging on to the edge of the EU or even worse in the coming months
Can we really expect the EU to give us money now?

By we I presume you mean a majority, by "now we" I presume you mean pig farmers.

How many of those who voted no to Lisbon are pro-EU? I'd say about 80-90%. You can be anti-Lisbon and pro-EU. There is no obligation on anyone to vote blindly whatever is handed down to us by EU bigwigs. If EU citizens were allowed to exercise their democratic right to vote for such a treaty it's likely that many states would reject it.

passive · 09-12-2008 2:06pm

Jesus1222 wrote: »

By we I presume you mean a majority, by "now we" I presume you mean pig farmers.

How many of those who voted no to Lisbon are pro-EU? I'd say about 80-90%. You can be anti-Lisbon and pro-EU. There is no obligation on anyone to vote blindly whatever is handed down to us by EU bigwigs. If EU citizens were allowed to exercise their democratic right to vote for such a treaty it's likely that many states would reject it.

so which parts of the treaty were you against then?

Jesus1222 · 09-12-2008 2:10pm

passive wrote: »

so which parts of the treaty were you against then?

I was opposed to the threatening behaviour and language of politicians in trying to scare people into voting for this. I support a democratic EU, not an autocratic EU. I'm opposed to incremental steps towards militarisation (no matter how small those steps are or appear to be). And although it is not our right I believe the Irish vote was a reflection of not just Irish opinion but opinion across the EU.

dlofnep · 09-12-2008 2:16pm

Right, let's vote yes for "money".

So long as the EU keeps throwing us a few scraps, we can thrown them pieces of our democracy.

Who gives a **** what the EU has given us? Seriously. It's all well and good to preach about it - but don't ask us to vote based on the premise that we owe them something because they have given us money. Democracy goes way and beyond the cause of capitalism.

09-12-2008 2:18pm

Dinter wrote: »

A quota system could have been introduced for foreign vessels as easily by the Irish Government as it was by the EU.

Em, also you do realise fish are actually worth money? They can be sold as easily as any other commodity. It would take more policing though.

Anyway even though I don't think the benefits to our infrastructure would have accrued as easily as they did without our membership of the EU I don't think it's beneficial to ignore what we've paid over. Nothing happens in a vacuum and the EU is not and never has been a charity.

Theres no vat on Fish.What you would have ended up with would have been a few extra Irish super trawlers I think and plenty of sub minimum wage jobs[as we wouldnt have a min wage].
Secondly,besides the infrastructure [I still think equating the billions of EU funding and the ginormous market we got access to,with what we might have made from Fish is ridiculous] theres an awfull lot of legislation that we wouldnt have done if we were not in the E.U.

09-12-2008 2:30pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Right, let's vote yes for "money".

So long as the EU keeps throwing us a few scraps, we can thrown them pieces of our democracy.

Who gives a **** what the EU has given us? Seriously. It's all well and good to preach about it - but don't ask us to vote based on the premise that we owe them something because they have given us money. Democracy goes way and beyond the cause of capitalism.

Given that you are the Sinn Féin rep at WIT...Lol is that a freudian slip of behind the scenes Sinn Féin policy?

passive · 09-12-2008 2:31pm

Jesus1222 wrote: »

I was opposed to the threatening behaviour and language of politicians in trying to scare people into voting for this. I support a democratic EU, not an autocratic EU. I'm opposed to incremental steps towards militarisation (no matter how small those steps are or appear to be). And although it is not our right I believe the Irish vote was a reflection of not just Irish opinion but opinion across the EU.

so.... no parts of the treaty then ^_^.

Just had to make sure...

I'm going to stop charging headfirst into a brick wall now, and a large portion of you are just that, nothing but a brick wall. If you spend 30 seconds on the politics forum ye'll be torn to shreds with this insanity, and I encourage anyone who feels bothered by the absurdity of arguments like the above to read any of the discussions in the EU subforum involving Scofflaw, OscarBravo et al. I haven't the patience or rhetoric skills to deal with the sheer insanity of tinfoil-hat wearers like Rtdh and posters who oppose something while openly acknowledging a lack of anything to oppose in the thing itself....

javaboy · 09-12-2008 2:34pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Im not over yet, if we vote YES give it a couple of years and we will be all branded like pigs. :pac:

Didn't we agree only last week that you didn't even read the Lisbon Treaty? :rolleyes:

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned that there are PCBs in pigs and PCB also stands for printed circuit board :eek:? You should work that into your act. Also the pig was the animal that took ultimate control of the farm and became most like the human oppressors in George Orwell's Animal Farm. :eek:

Really those are basic things you should have been picking up on RTDH. You're slipping.

dlofnep · 09-12-2008 2:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that you are the Sinn Féin rep at WIT...Lol is that a freudian slip of behind the scenes Sinn Féin policy?

How is it a Freudian slip? It is my core personal belief. I don't believe in throwing away democracy for the sole reason of money. If you're trying to sell Lisbon 2 on the premise of "but they gave us this..", then you're going to royally fail. Regardless of the party that I support, I am fully entitled to voice my opinion on the treaty. Especially since I worked personally on the first campaign. Probably while you were on internet forums, lecturing people.. right?

09-12-2008 2:47pm

dlofnep To be honest-most voters are capitalists to their very nature and selfish to boot.
They never have and I suggest never will buy into what you said there.
They are pragmatic.
Most voters will vote for what doesn't hurt their pocket too much.

Thats why ultimately the EU as a project will always win out here.People when faced with an ultimate choice of In or Not will choose In.

mountainyman · 09-12-2008 2:48pm

Del2005 wrote: »

If you consider how much fish the other EU countries have taken from our waters we haven't got that much money from the EU. But it does seem odd that we our going to the EU, has no one insurance to cover this? Also we aren't the only people to reject Lisbon, every country that had a public vote rejected it. It only passed in countries where the politions voted and they nearly all said they didn't think it would pass a public vote.

That's bollocks we have got much more from Europe than teh value of our fish!

Run_to_da_hills · 09-12-2008 2:59pm

javaboy wrote: »

Didn't we agree only last week that you didn't even read the Lisbon Treaty? :rolleyes:

But I read the book of Revelation about the mark of the beast, Guess what, the EU Parliament has been using the Beast as its Corporate logo since its inauguration right to this day.

http://www.greatpreachers.org/images/europe2.jpg

javaboy wrote: »

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned that there are PCBs in pigs and PCB also stands for printed circuit board :eek:? You should work that into your act. Also the pig was the animal that took ultimate control of the farm and became most like the human oppressors in George Orwell's Animal Farm. :eek:

You could be right. "Mark of the Beast Technology to Be Implemented in EU"

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/61830

dlofnep · 09-12-2008 3:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

dlofnep To be honest-most voters are capitalists to their very nature and selfish to boot.
They never have and I suggest never will buy into what you said there.
They are pragmatic.
Most voters will vote for what doesn't hurt their pocket too much.

Thats why ultimately the EU as a project will always win out here.People when faced with an ultimate choice of In or Not will choose In.

Of course people will take aboard financial concerns, but to say that everyone is willing to sign up to everything thrown at us, even at the cost of our democracy for a few quid is lunacy. And there is nothing pragmatic about throwing away your democracy because someone tells us that we OWE the EU.

passive · 09-12-2008 3:00pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"Mark of the Beast Technology to Be Implemented in EU"
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/61830

Indymedia is the opposite of a source...

(sorry Javaboy... didn't mean to insult your intelligence/sanity

javaboy · 09-12-2008 3:23pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

But I read the book of Revelation about the mark of the beast, Guess what, the EU Parliament has been using the Beast as its Corporate logo since its inauguration right to this day.

But you haven't read the Lisbon treaty so anything you say about it is based on you blindly believing what other people tell you. Who's a sheeple now? :rolleyes:

You could be right. "Mark of the Beast Technology to Be Implemented in EU"

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/61830

Sounds scary. :eek: And when is this film coming out?

passive wrote: »

Indymedia is the opposite of a source...

You have your quote tags mangled slightly.

It looks like I'm quoting Indymedia.

The_Conductor · 09-12-2008 3:27pm

So the beef has also tested positive for dioxins.....
Where the hell does this leave us?

Run_to_da_hills · 09-12-2008 3:32pm

smccarrick wrote: »

So the beef has also tested positive for dioxins.....
Where the hell does this leave us?

Its obvious, Vote yes and lick up to the EU Parliment. :rolleyes:

javaboy wrote: »

But you haven't read the Lisbon treaty so anything you say about it is based on you blindly believing what other people tell you. Who's a sheeple now? :rolleyes:

Either has most of the Irish Politians. :rolleyes:

know the basics = Eu takeover.

javaboy wrote: »

Sounds scary. :eek: And when is this film coming out?

1984. :eek:

javaboy · 09-12-2008 4:09pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Either has most of the Irish Politians. :rolleyes:

Maybe si maybe no. You're just trying to deflect attention. All I know is you haven't read it so I'm not taking anything you say about it seriously.

know the basics = Eu takeover.

I thought it was the NWO? :rolleyes: Read the treaty. It's mostly just benign bureaucratic reorganisation.

Run_to_da_hills · 09-12-2008 4:21pm

javaboy wrote: »

I thought it was the NWO? :rolleyes:.

It is the NWO

javaboy · 09-12-2008 4:24pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It is the NWO

Well that's all the proof I need.

09-12-2008 4:25pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Of course people will take aboard financial concerns, but to say that everyone is willing to sign up to everything thrown at us, even at the cost of our democracy for a few quid is lunacy. And there is nothing pragmatic about throwing away your democracy because someone tells us that we OWE the EU.

Someone doesn't have to tell us that.
It's in our physic when push comes to shove.

smccarrick wrote:

So the beef has also tested positive for dioxins.....
Where the hell does this leave us?

Very very little of it Shane.As you know the traceability element with beef is excelent to the point of incredible so they'll just withdraw the product if there is any.

Smart Bug · 09-12-2008 4:26pm

smccarrick wrote: »

So the beef has also tested positive for dioxins.....
Where the hell does this leave us?

Hungry.

phantom_lord · 09-12-2008 4:33pm

Del2005 wrote: »

If you consider how much fish the other EU countries have taken from our waters we haven't got that much money from the EU.

does any have any links that put a value on the fish taken from irish waters over the years? i can't imagine it comes to more than a few percent of the amount of aid we received from the eu.

Lisbon - NO ; Cash for Pig Idustry - Yes Please

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