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Census 1901

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  • 09-04-2015 8:26pm
    #1
    Mystified
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭


    I have been exploring the 1901 and 1911 Irish Census on line - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/.
    The site is pretty difficult to navigate and there are no contact details except a form to report errors:confused:
    How are the various forms accessed on line? For example Form H which lists police in barracks - albeit identified by initials only - on the night of the census.
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Thread here may be of interest: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82303751

    The 1901/11 censuses are a shambles full of errors and there's no money or will to tackle the problem. As usual the State pays lip service to Irish heritage. :mad:

    ****



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    #3
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Mystified wrote: »
    I have been exploring the 1901 and 1911 Irish Census on line - ....How are the various forms accessed on line? For example Form H which lists police in barracks - albeit identified by initials only - on the night of the census.

    The forms for many institutions and barracks etc only recorded initials, so that's all that is available. There are links to the images of the forms in pdf format on the transcript pages - e.g. Form (A) for households, Form (H) for military and police barracks etc, also enumerator forms (N1), house & building forms (B1) and Outbuildings forms (B2) which shows additional details

    344671.jpg


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    #4
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    If you know the address of the place, then you can use the browse function to find it. It'll take a bit of doing because you'll need to figure out what DED it's in, but it's manageable.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #5
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Mystified wrote: »
    How are the various forms accessed on line? For example Form H which lists police in barracks - albeit identified by initials only - on the night of the census.

    The details of RIC officers was never recorded for security reasons apparently. However you can usually figure out most of the entries by looking at the returns in the area - most of them will have been signed by an RIC officer. Also have a look at households in the town of village where there is no head or only woman, as married officers usually rented a property, in fact in some cases you'll even find a comment indicating the that the woman is an RIC officers wife and so on...


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    #6
    glacial_pace71
    Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭glacial_pace71


    If your interest is in the RIC then you could download some of the files from the National Archives in Kew and work backwards. There are a handful of files that have been digitised and are available for free. I can't add a link, but if you go to the 'Discovery' pages of Kew's TNA then simply type 'Royal Irish Constabulary' in the search it will return a couple of hundred paper file references. However, if you then narrow it to those files that have been digitised you'll get 20-30 files, mostly cabinet papers rather than returns but some useful ones. (Don't buy any, just take the free ones, e.g. Macready's paper on RIC disbandment is just a ungrateful and suspicious grumble about RIC men in Army barracks; Hamar Greenwood's paper of 1922 is a useful example as it gives stats per county, useful reference point for working back through that decade).
    I occasionally get to cross the pond to the UK but rarely get to look at anything more than 1,001 military or naval files. I might have a look at some of the police files the next time, just to get an idea of their quality and detail. However, the 1901 and 1911 census returns are a very difficult means of obtaining your research data.


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    #7
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    If you are researching a RIC person, it would be worth looking into the Irish Distress Committee (later known as the Irish Grants Committee) in the National Archives at Kew. On their Discovery search engine type in CO 762 and the surname of your person and see if anything turns up.

    The IGC records have details of about 20,000 people, many of them RIC – sometimes entire families - that were seen to be loyal to the Crown and suffered as a result of the "the late war in Ireland".

    Kew records can run up huge costs, so it often is best to identify the exact info/file reference you require and then pay a local researcher there to take a copy or a note of the bit you want.


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    #8
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    How is it that the Passport Office was able to take on hundreds of temporary staff recently http://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/passport-office-hires-hundreds-to-deal-with-applications-34863588.html but the National Archives of Ireland can't hire anybody to handle corrections? Still no sign of any effort to cut through the red tape to put the badly needed 1926 census online. :mad:

    ****



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    #9
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Well, they're handled by different departments, for a start.

    There's lots of discussion on the genealogy forum about 1926 and you'll see the issues therein. There's no obligation to release 1926 early and that's what the CSO is clinging to. Lobbying is happening though.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #10
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    How is it that the Passport Office was able to take on hundreds of temporary staff recently http://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/passport-office-hires-hundreds-to-deal-with-applications-34863588.html but the National Archives of Ireland can't hire anybody to handle corrections?
    People pay substantial fees to get passports, which generates revenue out of which the staff get paid. More people looking for passports: more revenue to employ staff to issue passports. This dynamic is not at work in the national archives.

    When you notify an error to the National Archives, how much are you willing to pay to have it corrected?


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    #11
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    They are still both organs of the State - sauce for goose etc.

    ****



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    #12
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    People pay substantial fees to get passports, which generates revenue out of which the staff get paid. More people looking for passports: more revenue to employ staff to issue passports. This dynamic is not at work in the national archives.

    When you notify an error to the National Archives, how much are you willing to pay to have it corrected?

    Why should I pay anything as I am helping improve a vital database which will be useful for genealogical tourism - speculate to accumulate.

    ****



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    #13
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    They are still both organs of the State - sauce for goose etc.
    So you're saying they should charge fees to provide genealogical information like they charge fees to provide passports?


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    #14
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Why should I pay anything as I am helping improve a vital database which will be useful for genealogical tourism - speculate to accumulate.
    If you're not willing to pay anything to have the database maintained and improved, what makes you think anyone else will be?


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    #15
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If you're not willing to pay anything to have the database maintained and improved, what makes you think anyone else will be?

    You seem to be having a problem reading what I'm writing so I'll leave it at that.

    ****



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    #16
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    How is it that the Passport Office was able to take on hundreds of temporary staff recently http://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/passport-office-hires-hundreds-to-deal-with-applications-34863588.html but the National Archives of Ireland can't hire anybody to handle corrections? Still no sign of any effort to cut through the red tape to put the badly needed 1926 census online. :mad:

    Seriously! Don't you think the work of the Passport Office is a bit more important to most tax payers!


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    #17
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Seriously! Don't you think the work of the Passport Office is a bit more important to most tax payers!

    Ffs I'm talking about a small number of additional staff - they could be transferred from another paper shuffling government department. Whatever happened to Is féidir linn? :rolleyes:

    ****



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    #18
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Seriously! Don't you think the work of the Passport Office is a bit more important to most tax payers!

    Ffs I'm talking about a small number of additional staff - they could be transferred from another paper shuffling government department. Whatever happened to Is f idir linn? :rolleyes:

    Sure and everyone makes the same argument!


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    #19
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Sure and everyone makes the same argument!

    Just like everybody makes the same argument about such and such being more important than > insert your pet project <

    ****



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    #20
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Which is why the argument is pointless. The question originally asked was not "which is more important - issuing passports or improving the digitised version of the 1901 census?". It was "how come then can employ extra staff to issue passports but not to improve the census database?". And the answer, already given, is that people who want passports are prepared to pay for them, and this provides a revenue stream to finance the staff, whereas people who want the database improved are apparently not prepared to pay for that, so no revenue stream, so no extra staff. Waffle about "speculating to accumulate" and vague hand-waving about how improving the database will lead to "genealogical tourism" is not a substitute for actual revenue. The staff you need to hire will not accept payment in speculation or promises of future genealogical tourism; they'll want actual wages.


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    #21
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Which is why the argument is pointless. The question originally asked was not "which is more important - issuing passports or improving the digitised version of the 1901 census?". It was "how come then can employ extra staff to issue passports but not to improve the census database?". And the answer, already given, is that people who want passports are prepared to pay for them, and this provides a revenue stream to finance the staff, whereas people who want the database improved are apparently not prepared to pay for that, so no revenue stream, so no extra staff. Waffle about "speculating to accumulate" and vague hand-waving about how improving the database will lead to "genealogical tourism" is not a substitute for actual revenue. The staff you need to hire will not accept payment in speculation or promises of future genealogical tourism; they'll want actual wages.

    Yet another offensive post - why don't you just add me to your ignore list when you are determined to ignore what I'm saying?

    Taking on additional staff in the Passport Office was not done because of a perceived revenue flow but to relieve 'alleged' pressure on the office.

    The 1901/1911 censuses have been online for some years now and no attempt has been made to take on additional staff to cope with numerous corrections etc. The result will be that people like myself will tire of submitting corrections and the digitised records will remain full of errors.

    ****



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    #22
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    How is it that the Passport Office was able to take on hundreds of temporary staff recently but the National Archives of Ireland can't hire anybody to handle corrections?

    I think it's because the country can probably cope with the Census website as it is but the same probably can't be said for an understaffed passport office.
    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Ffs... :rolleyes:

    Another offensive post.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #23
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Del.Monte & Peregrinus: please play nicely or not at all.

    It may not be obvious, Del.Monte, but the NAI did take on Job bridge workers to make inroads into the corrections list. Several that I reported myself have now been amended, so they are working on the task.

    I'm sure everyone would agree that it would be marvellous if the NAI got extra staff and indeed a new greenfield site with room to expand.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #24
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,130 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Or, horror of horrors in today's 'me' world, they could put out a gentle call for interested volunteers.

    I transcribe quite a bit for the LDS, I would of course rather do it for the National Archives. As long as it's not taking jobs from anyone, I don't see the problem. My business if I choose to work for free at something.


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    #25
    vancrea
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭vancrea


    I have located the people I am interested in and on the return form in 1901 the house number is 10 and in the 1911 the house number is 13. As far as I am aware the people concerned did not move farm in the 10 years. How can I establish a corelation between house number and actual address. I have the village name.


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    #26
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    The numbers mentioned on the website are enumerator references and dont usually correspond to a street number, so depending on the sequence the enumerators visited the properties can differ between 1901 and 1911. In cities and larger towns the numbers do sometimes match street numbers - see the reverse of the form 'A' in 1911 to verify


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    #27
    vancrea
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭vancrea


    vancrea wrote: »
    I have located the people I am interested in and on the return form in 1901 the house number is 10 and in the 1911 the house number is 13. As far as I am aware the people concerned did not move farm in the 10 years. How can I establish a corelation between house number and actual address. I have the village name.

    Thank you info most helpful


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