Peerages' of Ireland and the UK - current status and future role

Everyone knows Lord Henry Mountcharles from Slane

I understand his title is not officially recognized but is he inventing something that does not exist when he talks on the radio?

It's what the media use

Ireland’s most infamous aristocrat, the right honourable Henry Conyngham, Earl of Mountcharles – or Lord Henry Mountcharles, as he’s more commonly known – strides purposefully into the bar of Dublin’s Buswell’s Hotel, looking fairly drawn and stressed-out. It’s not so much to do with the upcoming Madonna gig at Slane Castle

http://www.hotpress.com/archive/2750238.html

Is he Lord Henry or not?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

He is an earl but while in the republic of ireland that title has no official status unless approved by the government.

I'm not sure if the government approved any title of nobility for the British monarch while here and if not she would legally have been plain old Elizabeth Windsor. Curiously, she is not a citizen of an EU member state or of any state so she had no automatic right to come here without a visa.

Some enterprising company set up on the Internet a few years ago offered titles of nobility. Turns out that they were just changing ones first name to lord, baron etc.

Many Irish people get knighthoods (sir tony etc) and are referred to as sir. I think the honors system is a good idea and if it could be divorced from thr monarchy and feudal connotations I think a similar system in Ireland would be a good thing

Citizens not from a "Realm" can only be given an honorary title and do not have the right to use "Sir". For example, Bono is not "Sir" Paul Hewson but it is "Sir" Terry Wogan as he has taken British Citizenship.

Marcusm wrote: »

I think you'll find that Terry Wogan was a British citizen at his birth!

He's not that old.

haulagebasher wrote: »

Firstly, does anyone know if new peers are still being created by the Queen or is it dying away?

The creation of new titles continues in the UK, but has become a far more rare occurrence; Dennis Thatcher was the most recent, when he was made a hereditary baronet.

Secondly can peers from the Republic still have the right to sit in the House of Lords?

Up until the recent reform of the house of lords, yes. After a few of the hereditary peers got to stay, but very few and, AFAIK, they have to be 'working peers' now.

Is the Queen still able able to appoint (if she so desired) new peers who live in the Republic?

You're confusing residence with citizenship. In theory the British Monarch may create new peers who are resident in the Irish Republic or even Timbuktu if she likes (and her government allows it) if they are British citizens.

But if they're not or if they hold duel citizenship, then it gets more complicated - for example Irish citizenship requires that we must have express permission of the Irish government to receive any honours from a foreign government (a measure that was largely introduced to stop Irish citizens getting British knighthoods).

As for the territory associated with a peerage, I suspect that the creation of any (even Northern) Irish peerages has been avoided like the plague for diplomatic and political reasons, for the most part at least, certainly since World War II.

Is it the case that with the expulsion of so much of the upper class in the early 20th century that Ireland lost a great deal of heritage having lost so many highly regarded individuals.

Some were and some were not. Certainly the policies of the Irish Free State and later Republic did little to welcome the Anglo-Irish community (let alone nobility) into the fold. It was a tragedy and scandal how we effectively ethnically cleansed so many good Irishmen and women, who saw themselves as such, during this period, because they did not fit into the vision of an Ireland that had comely (Catholic) maidens dancing at the village crossroads.

But at the same time, many of the Anglo-Irish nobility did not see themselves as Irish; the Duke of Wellington, who was born in Dublin and of Anglo-Irish stock, famously said of his background "Just because one is born in a barn does not make one a horse" (this quote may be urban legend, but the attitude was not uncommon) - so we didn't really lose much when we lost that particular breed of Anglo-Irish.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Is he Lord Henry or not?

Yes and no.

You have to probably look to countries like France, Italy or Germany to get a better understanding of this. There you'll still find families that to some degree or other will cling to old claims of nobility (many will even be listed with their titles in the phone book), even though those claims may have already become nominal centuries ago - Byzantine princes, barons of the Holy Roman Empire, Papal nobles, marquesses of the Ancien Régime.

Having the dubious honour of having been born into such a family, albeit with a very 'diluted' claim at this stage, I grew up knowing many aristocrats. Some never use the titles, nor even speak about them (most of what I know of my own family comes from my grandmother and not my father) and instead favour meritocratic or professional titles.

Others held on to them for various psychological reasons, often because they genuinely do not have any identity beyond this - dying a slow death as they try to leverage what little inheritance (estates, art, and so on) they have rather than working for a living, until eventually there's nothing left. I saw relatives like this and it profoundly changed my views on the subject.

And many 'commoners' still show deference to aristocrats, although it's beyond me why. Perhaps it's our need to believe in something timeless and greater than ourselves. Perhaps it's romantic. Buggered if I know.

The British peerage is still fairly early on in its decline compared to most of the continental ones, having been shielded by the survival of their monarchy and that they did not suffer the same financial disasters as those that came with the French Revolution or losing World War I (Germany, Austria, Hungary), or World War II (Italy) - losing everything brings even a prince down to Earth rather quickly.

So is he lord Henry? Yes. Does it make a difference? Only if you believe it does.

In the end, the aristocracy today is like a chicken who's head has been cut off; it runs around for a while making a bit of a show, but ultimately it's already dead.