Passport???

jakey4000 · 23-03-2009 3:48am #1

I’m wondering if anyone here has their passport as Gaeilge. I’m applying for one and I want my name in Irish on it.

It says on the form “An tÁinm le hÚsáid ar an bPas” so I’d put Jake Mac Ádaigh.
Then you’ve to put the “An tÁinm ar an Teatas Breithe” so I’d put Jake MacKady.
Then you can opt to have them both on show on your passport which I want.

I thought it’d be as simple as that but here’s the thing, if the name you want on your passport is different to on your birth cert it says you have to send proof that you’ve been using it for 2 years.

It said a deed poll can be proof but when I went to try and get one they said that’s I can’t have one because it’s not really a name change so you don’t get a deed poll for that.

I use my Irish name but I don’t have anything official with it. Everything I have just sort of automatically got my name in English.
My PPS card automatically comes with what’s on your birth cert, so does my medical card.

My bank account is in English because I opened it as a teenager using my PPS card as proof of identity, and I’d prefer it to be English anyway since bank statements are the only proof of address I have for the social welfare (and everything to do with the welfare goes off my birth cert and is in English).

I went down anyway to see about changing my bank account to Irish just so I could get the passport but they won’t change it until I have something official to with my name in Irish.

I feel bit like I’m going in circles I can’t get my name as Gaeilge on my passport until I have it on my bank account or similar and I can’t get it on my bank account until I have a passport or similar with it as Gaeilge as proof of identity.
How am I supposed to get around this?

My mam says they wont care about proof she got her passport with her married name as what she wanted on her passport and her maiden filled in for her birth cert and sent no proof at all that she’s married or uses her married name and they never queried it.

I’m not sure though. Anyone here with their name in Irish did you send proof or what?:(

Redbhoy · 23-03-2009 11:56am

You could try this lad

http://www.coimisineir.ie/

Poll Dubh · 23-03-2009 3:59pm

They're not actually different names. One is the real name of your ancestors, the other is an anglicisation forced on your ancestors by the English. The names are established equivalents probably going back hundreds of years. Therefore I wouldn't worry about their arbitrary 2 year rule. I'd say put it in and see what happens. If they give you any grief then I'd recommend the language commissioner.

Múinteoir · 23-03-2009 7:09pm

I did it and didn't have any problems.

jakey4000 · 23-03-2009 7:37pm

Múinteoir wrote: »

I did it and didn't have any problems.

So were you able to get your name as Gaeilge without sending the extra proof?

I'm thinking I'll just send off the form without the proof and see what happens.

Badhbh · 24-03-2009 8:42pm

My circumstances are a bit different.
I got my first ever passport last year.
On my birth certificate my name is Bridget Elizabeth ..
In those days (1962) I don’t know if it was that officials didn’t have the respect they have today for Irish, or my parents probely thought they had to give the name in English.

Anyhow I have never ever used my name as Bridget Elizabeth. It has always been Bríd Eilís. Sometimes I use my surname in English, but mostly in Irish.
My bank account name is in full Irish. Ive had it since the bank visited my secondary school. (I asked for my credit card to be in English, [surname only], because of the difficuly of the internet etc, and they agreed.) My PPI name is in full Irish since I first got it. And the social welfare is in full Irish.

So I sent the Passport Office a few bill with my Irish name on it, to prove it’s the name I use and there was no problem with it.

When a woman changes her name at marriage I think probely the marriage certificate is enough to prove a change of name.

dolliemix · 24-03-2009 8:54pm

I changed my name from English to Irish and I definitely didn't need or have proof on other documentation. That was 11 years ago though! As far as I know, as Irish is 'officially' the first language of this country it's against the law to refuse permission to anyone who may want to use Irish with any official documents or services. I heard about a guy from the Gaeltacht once, who managed to get off a court hearing because the Gardaí witnesses wouldn't have been able to act as witnesses through Irish - not sure how true this is.

You shouldn't have a problem. Just be careful though, I was in Mongolia last year and they wouldn't accept my credit card without my passport and because my name is in English on my credit card and Irish on my passport I couldn't go ahead with the transaction. It nearly happened to me again in New York in Feb except that the girl took my word for it !

Múinteoir · 25-03-2009 10:45am

I mentioned above that I did it, but that was also a decade ago. I don't think you have to prove anything, though things may have changed since. The fact is though, jakey4000, that if you go abroad with a passport in Irish and other ID in English, you're going to create major headaches for yourself, because people outside of Ireland don't understand this whole "two names" thing and you end up looking like Carlos the Jackal with your two different names.

I strongly advise anyone choosing to use their Irish language name, to go the full hog and change everything. It will cause you problems later on if you do it in bits and pieces, especially if you ever go abroad. My brother had ID in English and Irish when he applied for a green card and it caused him big problems.

I've also heard anecdotal evidence of illegal Irish immigrants in the US who got kicked out, but got back in by getting a new pasport in Ireland in their Irish name (which the Americans wouldn't cop as being the same person). There is the possibility that the two year rule you mentioned above has something to do with them cracking down on such activity, especially since 9/11.

jakey4000 · 25-03-2009 11:58am

Thanks for everyone's replies.

I found out the "2 year" thing was brought in 2008, you can read about it here
http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Passport_documents/Statuatory%20Instruments/passports%20act%202008.pdf
(not riveting reading though).

I went back down to the bank yesterday to talk about changing my name on my account (I wanted to talk to a manager about it) and he still insisted I cant change it without showing photo ID with my name in Irish.

I tried explaining it's my constitutional right etc. but he said there isn't anything they can do, he has to ask for the photo ID under new anti-fraud laws. They were nice about it but basically no dice.

I can change the name on my PPS card by just asking (and medical card etc) but it occured to me that I won't have had those for 2 years (I need to my passport for september) so it won't be any use for my passport application. I'll be left with PPS and medical card in Irish and my bank account and passport in English. Nobody'll know who I am.

So if I change my PPS cards I'll have to wait 2 years until I can get the passport in Irish, and for the 2 years I'll have to have half my stuff in Irish and passport and bank account in English. I can't have that though it'd be a nightmare.

I've decided I'll send off the application without the proof and if they refuse me I'll go to the language Coimisinéir and ask what I'm to do about it all.

To be honest I think it'd be easier to buy a passport on the black market.:D

Múinteoir · 25-03-2009 2:32pm

jakey4000 wrote: »

I've decided I'll send off the application without the proof and if they refuse me I'll go to the language Coimisinéir and ask what I'm to do about it all.

Yeah that's what I'd recommend. The Language Commissioner should be able to help if there's a problem then.

gcdwebmaster · 18-05-2009 3:48pm

was reading in yesterdays paper about people changing their name by deed poll and Clannads Maire/Moya Ní Bhraonáin changed her surname to the anglicized version brennan, since she tired of explaining the version as gaeilge.

uch · 19-05-2009 8:22pm

What language is your name on your driving license in ?? (if u have one)
I mailed the language commissioner Seán Ó Cuirreáin on this and he told me legally I'm entitled to use either version of my name, so I now have my driving license as Gaeilge, my Passport doesn't expire for a few years so I'm not at that crossroads yet, mail Seán Ó Cuirreáin and he'll fill you in.

jakey4000 · 10-06-2009 5:25am

I thought I'd give an update to everyone who answered.

I sent of my application with my name in Irish and ticking the box that I wanted my name in English included too.

I didn't send any proof that I've been using my name in Irish and when I got my from and photos signed at the garda station no one said anything.

I was full sure they'd send the application back saying I needed proof that I use the Irish version but it was all grand.

The passport arrived there last week.:D

Seems I worried for nothing. I think that once the Garda signs the form swearing that you're yourself thats all the proof they need, unless your name is different because of marriage or something.

Múinteoir · 10-06-2009 11:02am

jakey4000 wrote: »

I thought I'd give an update to everyone who answered.

I sent of my application with my name in Irish and ticking the box that I wanted my name in English included too.

I didn't send any proof that I've been using my name in Irish and when I got my from and photos signed at the garda station no one said anything.

I was full sure they'd send the application back saying I needed proof that I use the Irish version but it was all grand.

The passport arrived there last week.:D

Seems I worried for nothing. I think that once the Garda signs the form swearing that you're yourself thats all the proof they need, unless your name is different because of marriage or something.

It's a fundamental legal right to be able to use your Irish name in this country, so it really shouldn't have been a problem. But you can hit snags occasionally.

uch wrote: »

What language is your name on your driving license in ?? (if u have one)
I mailed the language commissioner Seán Ó Cuirreáin on this and he told me legally I'm entitled to use either version of my name, so I now have my driving license as Gaeilge, my Passport doesn't expire for a few years so I'm not at that crossroads yet, mail Seán Ó Cuirreáin and he'll fill you in.

Probably a good idea to give his email address:eolas@coimisineir.ie

phonejacker · 06-02-2012 12:23am

all of my things are in english (birthcert, bank acc., passport (out of date now ), driving licence, medical card, etc ) whats the first thing that i should try to get in irish?

deise go deo · 07-02-2012 12:13am

phonejacker wrote: »

all of my things are in english (birthcert, bank acc., passport (out of date now ), driving licence, medical card, etc ) whats the first thing that i should try to get in irish?

Best thing to change first is your driving licence, all you need to do is ask them to put your name in Irish and they will, no need for proof of use or anything like that. Once you have that you can use it to change everything else.

muineachan · 14-02-2012 1:06pm

deise go deo wrote: »

phonejacker wrote: »

all of my things are in english (birthcert, bank acc., passport (out of date now ), driving licence, medical card, etc ) whats the first thing that i should try to get in irish?

Best thing to change first is your driving licence, all you need to do is ask them to put your name in Irish and they will, no need for proof of use or anything like that. Once you have that you can use it to change everything else.

I 2nd that, then youve a photo id in your name then you can change your bank etc

Maitiu O Conaill · 26-03-2012 10:44pm

How about us English born living in UK? I have an Irish passport, can I simply ask for my name to be written as Gaeilge?

muineachan · 28-03-2012 8:21am

Maitiu O Conaill wrote: »

How about us English born living in UK? I have an Irish passport, can I simply ask for my name to be written as Gaeilge?

They will (99% chance) ask for proof of useage for 2 years, the could be a letter addressed to you in your Irish name 2 years ago, a work badge etc its pretty informal. Theres a chance they may still reject it and ask for a deed poll as your abroad but deed polls are simple in the UK

Maitiu O Conaill · 28-03-2012 5:33pm

i emailed PassportLondon@dfa.ie to enquire what i needed to have my irish passport as Gaeilge and they say they don't even accept deep-polls!!

the only way is if i prove i have been using for 2 year

muineachan · 28-03-2012 6:15pm

Thats the embassy right? Sounds a bit over the top given the British passport office will accept a British deedpoll to change your name, and the passport office in Dublin accepted my Irish deed poll.

Sorry to hear that! But Doesnt mean you cant still use it informally in the meantime!

Maitiu O Conaill · 28-03-2012 7:03pm

muineachan wrote: »

Thats the embassy right? Sounds a bit over the top given the British passport office will accept a British deedpoll to change your name, and the passport office in Dublin accepted my Irish deed poll.

Sorry to hear that! But Doesnt mean you cant still use it informally in the meantime!

I might try going to Dublin office as I already have an Irish passport.... Bloody brits! Lol

muineachan · 28-03-2012 9:02pm

Aye it would be handy if you could do that, I read somewhere selected british post offices did Irish passports and if im not mistaken they get sent to dublin. Could be wrong though, if youve any family n Ireland get onto them for an address! (although theyd probably ask for an Irish deed poll, which means youd have to go to court in dublin to lodge the deed poll. Sounds a bit much of an effort!

Maitiu O Conaill · 02-04-2012 9:43am

My response from Eolas@coimisineir.ie;

Go raibh maith agat as teagmháil a dhéanamh linn ar an ábhar seo.

The issuing of passports is now governed by the Passport Act 2008, and we have researched the matter extensively.

There are specific arrangements in place to cater for the provision of a passport with the name in Irish if that is not the name on the birth certificate of the individual, to ensure security and prevent misuse. These measures include, in some cases, the inclusion of the English version of your name on the passport concurrent with the Irish version for a period of two years, on production of proof of the use of the Irish version of the name to the satisfaction of the Minister. This proof does not necessarily have to be in the form of ‘official’ documents - it can include club memberships, school registrations etc., although obviously official documents strengthen your case. This is mainly to ensure integrity and continuity and to prevent the misuse of the system i.e. individuals receiving a passport in the English version of the name and then in the Irish version, followed by the English version again. The relevant sections of the Act are as follows:

10.—(1) Subject to this section and section 11, a passport issued under this Act shall be in the name of the applicant for a passport
concerned as it appears in his or her certificate of birth (whether in the English language or the Irish language) or, as may be appropriate,
a certificate of naturalisation or other document produced by him or her to the Minister as evidence of Irish citizenship.
(2) Subject to this Act, the Minister may, if so requested by an applicant for a passport who is or was married, issue a passport to
him or her in his or her name that incorporates the surname of his or her spouse or former spouse, as the case may be, in place of, or
in addition to, the surname of the applicant.
(3) The Minister shall, if an applicant for a passport applies to have a passport issued to him or her in a name (in this section
referred to as “the new name”) other than the one referred to in subsection (1) or (2) or, if appropriate, the name entered in the passport
last previously issued to him or her, require the applicant to produce to the Minister such evidence as appears to him or her to
be satisfactory of the use by the applicant of the new name before a passport may be issued to the applicant in that name.
(4) If an applicant for a passport in the circumstances referred to in subsection (3) produces evidence to the satisfaction of the Minister
of the use by him or her of the new name for a period of not less than 2 years prior to the date of the application, the Minister may,
subject to this Act, issue a passport to the applicant in that name.
(5) If an applicant for a passport in the circumstances referred to in subsection (3) does not produce evidence to the satisfaction of the
Minister of the use by him or her of the new name for a period of not less than 2 years prior to the date of the application, the Minister
may, subject to this Act, issue a passport to the applicant in that name and enter the name of the applicant referred to in subsection
(1) or (2) or, if appropriate, that entered in the passport last previously issued to him or her as an observation in the passport and
that entry shall remain there for a period of not less than 2 years.

As there is no specific constitutional provision as to the right to use either the Irish or the English version (or both) of a name, the above legislation is the legal position, and the issuing of the passport in a version of the name other than that on the birth certificate is at the discretion of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. He/she may therefore set out the level of proof required. This would be as advised to you by the Department of Foreign Affairs. You may be able to start with other documentation – e.g. your driving licence, which may not require the same level of proof as to your name in Irish as a passport requires, and build up a body of proof based on this.

Tá súil agam go bhfuil an t-eolas seo ina chúnamh duit.

Le gach dea ghuí

muineachan · 02-04-2012 9:51am

Maitiu O Conaill wrote: »

My response from [EMAIL="Eolas@coimisineir.ie"]Eolas@coimisineir.ie[/EMAIL];

Go raibh maith agat as teagmháil a dhéanamh linn ar an ábhar seo.

The issuing of passports is now governed by the Passport Act 2008, and we have researched the matter extensively.

There are specific arrangements in place to cater for the provision of a passport with the name in Irish if that is not the name on the birth certificate of the individual, to ensure security and prevent misuse. These measures include, in some cases, the inclusion of the English version of your name on the passport concurrent with the Irish version for a period of two years, on production of proof of the use of the Irish version of the name to the satisfaction of the Minister. This proof does not necessarily have to be in the form of ‘official’ documents - it can include club memberships, school registrations etc., although obviously official documents strengthen your case. This is mainly to ensure integrity and continuity and to prevent the misuse of the system i.e. individuals receiving a passport in the English version of the name and then in the Irish version, followed by the English version again. The relevant sections of the Act are as follows:

10.—(1) Subject to this section and section 11, a passport issued under this Act shall be in the name of the applicant for a passport
concerned as it appears in his or her certificate of birth (whether in the English language or the Irish language) or, as may be appropriate,
a certificate of naturalisation or other document produced by him or her to the Minister as evidence of Irish citizenship.
(2) Subject to this Act, the Minister may, if so requested by an applicant for a passport who is or was married, issue a passport to
him or her in his or her name that incorporates the surname of his or her spouse or former spouse, as the case may be, in place of, or
in addition to, the surname of the applicant.
(3) The Minister shall, if an applicant for a passport applies to have a passport issued to him or her in a name (in this section
referred to as “the new name”) other than the one referred to in subsection (1) or (2) or, if appropriate, the name entered in the passport
last previously issued to him or her, require the applicant to produce to the Minister such evidence as appears to him or her to
be satisfactory of the use by the applicant of the new name before a passport may be issued to the applicant in that name.
(4) If an applicant for a passport in the circumstances referred to in subsection (3) produces evidence to the satisfaction of the Minister
of the use by him or her of the new name for a period of not less than 2 years prior to the date of the application, the Minister may,
subject to this Act, issue a passport to the applicant in that name.
(5) If an applicant for a passport in the circumstances referred to in subsection (3) does not produce evidence to the satisfaction of the
Minister of the use by him or her of the new name for a period of not less than 2 years prior to the date of the application, the Minister
may, subject to this Act, issue a passport to the applicant in that name and enter the name of the applicant referred to in subsection
(1) or (2) or, if appropriate, that entered in the passport last previously issued to him or her as an observation in the passport and
that entry shall remain there for a period of not less than 2 years.

As there is no specific constitutional provision as to the right to use either the Irish or the English version (or both) of a name, the above legislation is the legal position, and the issuing of the passport in a version of the name other than that on the birth certificate is at the discretion of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. He/she may therefore set out the level of proof required. This would be as advised to you by the Department of Foreign Affairs. You may be able to start with other documentation – e.g. your driving licence, which may not require the same level of proof as to your name in Irish as a passport requires, and build up a body of proof based on this.

Tá súil agam go bhfuil an t-eolas seo ina chúnamh duit.

Le gach dea ghuí

Interesting, as I said before they issued me with the 2 year passport with my name in Irish, but with my name in english noted on another page. But it appears from they law they could of done that without my deedpoll at their discretion. As i didnt have 2 years evidence they noted my english name. So im left wondering what my deed poll did for me exactly!? Perhaps it strenghthened my case!

Maitiu O Conaill · 02-04-2012 11:12am

further response:

My understanding is that you will still need two years proof of usage to avail of this - see the following note: These measures include, in some cases, the inclusion of the English version of your name on the passport concurrent with the Irish version for a period of two years, on production of proof of the use of the Irish version of the name to the satisfaction of the Minister. This proof does not necessarily have to be in the form of ‘official’ documents - it can include club memberships, school registrations etc., although obviously official documents strengthen your case.

There is, as far as I am aware, no difference in treatment between applying to your local Embassy or to the main passport Office in Dublin.

pawrick · 02-04-2012 11:44am

Official documentation rather then club membership helps improve your case when the person in the passport office looks over your application - it's just common sense that it would especially when they are mostly concerned with preventing people abusing the system.

If going abroad it's best to have all your ID in the exact same name if anything goes wrong.

I don't know if it still happens with all the new checks carried out by the USA, but a few years back people would overstay their visa, come home and claim to have lost their passport and then look to have a new one issued in a variation of the name used on the "lost" one. Proof of useage along with other checks helped to curb that from being more common.

muineachan · 02-04-2012 12:02pm

that would be my understanding too Maitiu, the Irish embassy is Irish soil so is governed by Irish law. I would email them again with the law and see what they say, the commissioner is great! shame they are doing away with the language commission.

I too know of people who have gone to Australia on a one year visa, come back, got their passport in their Irish name and gone back. It seems to generally work although I'd see see some poor bhastard from the North get caught out on that TV show Border Patrol, he'd done it via having a British passport in his English name and then an Irish one in his Irish. So its not fool proof!

eire4 · 02-04-2012 4:55pm

jakey4000 wrote: »

I thought I'd give an update to everyone who answered.

I sent of my application with my name in Irish and ticking the box that I wanted my name in English included too.

I didn't send any proof that I've been using my name in Irish and when I got my from and photos signed at the garda station no one said anything.

I was full sure they'd send the application back saying I needed proof that I use the Irish version but it was all grand.

The passport arrived there last week.:D

Seems I worried for nothing. I think that once the Garda signs the form swearing that you're yourself thats all the proof they need, unless your name is different because of marriage or something.

Good for you. Glad it worked out for you. I actually just renewed my passport a couple of months ago. But I didn't know you could have your name as Gaelige as well as in English on it. I would have done the same if I had know. O well I guess I will have to wait 10 years to make that change:(

phonejacker · 04-04-2012 12:17pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Best thing to change first is your driving licence, all you need to do is ask them to put your name in Irish and they will, no need for proof of use or anything like that. Once you have that you can use it to change everything else.

my driving licence isnt due for renewal for another seven years. so unless i said i lost my driving licence or stolen will i have to wait?

jackdubh · 04-04-2012 10:32pm

Great discussion here but it seems that overall there is no legal means of determining what name one can use in Ireland.

My case is as follows. I was born in England, raised in Ireland. My name on my English birth certificate is in English but on ALL other documentation it is in Irish. I had no issues ever registering with my Irish name. Even when I applied for my passport in Irish they accepted my English birth certificate.

However now I have come across my first issue: applying for a green card. They want me to legally prove that my name is my name. Apparently a passport and all other documentation is not good enough.

To help with this I have contacted the following:
Irish Embassy, Washington
Irish Consulate
Solicitors in Ireland
Garda Siochana
Passport Office
Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA)
Commissioner of Irish Languages

So far only the Commission for Irish Languages has been in any way helpful. They say that by common use my Irish name is acceptable, also the fact that the passport office have accepted it.

Unfortunately this is not legal in the eyes of the US and probably anybody else. Therefore, why is there no law or statute in Ireland that helps define this. People use both versions of their name all of the time. If it is not legal, then surely it is fraud? If it is legal, what is the law?

Currently I don't have a solution. I am hoping for a letter from DFA to state that the person on my birth certificate and the person on my passport are one in the same.

My passport was issued in 2006, hence the 2008 Passport Act did not take effect.

For those going about the process in Ireland. I did it without any issue. It is Ireland after all so you should be able to use your name in Irish. But best to change everything and not pick and mix.

Passport???

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