The NRAs fearsome track record on motorway junction design

Chris_533976 · 28-03-2008 1:23pm #1

Despite the fact that the much-needed motorways in Ireland are finally being built, I must say that I've noticed in the past and present designs that the actual motorway and dual carriageway junctions are at best, a shambles of penny pinching and traffic-jam causing design. I can safely say that in other European countries these junctions would never be built, but here we seem to be building ridiculous junctions regardless, leaving us with potentially crazy traffic jams and expensive, difficult, avoidable upgrades in the future.

Lets take a look at the list ->

M50 N4/N7 junctions
All two level stacked junctions which are now being upgraded to freeflow at great expense. Should have been built freeflow in the past, I can kinda forgive this one tho as money was tight when the M50 was built.

M50 N3 junction
The plan for this is to have the major movements freeflow with the roundabout in situ for other movements. Now these other 'minor' movements will jam up knowing Dublin and the new M3.

M7/M8 and M7/M9 junctions.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dublin&ie=UTF8&ll=53.169055,-6.751957&spn=0.011268,0.029182&z=15
As it stands for the M9 and will be for the M8, both of these junctions are needlessly restricted. Travelling north on the (future) M8 or M9, you can only turn east towards Dublin. Including the M8/9 north to M7 west at least would cost pittance (simple slip road).

N7/N20 junction in Limerick.
http://www.limericktunnel.com/Section6-N7Interchange.html .
A nice grade separated junction with a movement (N20 north to the top of the pic at Childers Road) is missing. Official line is to stop traffic queuing onto the mainline as Childers will be jammed. I dont buy this. Putting the extra movement in would mean a more complicated, higher and more expensive junction. As it stands, traffic will divert onto the Dock Road interchange and do a U Turn to come back to Childers Road from the west. Which will jam up the Dock Road junction needlessly.

N25 Kinsale, Sarsfield & Bandon road roundabouts
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cork&sll=53.169055,-6.751957&sspn=0.011268,0.029182&ie=UTF8&ll=51.875776,-8.514276&spn=0.011605,0.029182&z=15&iwloc=addr
Googles road numbering is complete trash here!
Yes the problem here is that they are roundabouts. Lets take a major ring road and chuck three multi-arm signal controlled roundabouts onto it. Kinsale road has been grade separated recently but the political nature of Transport21 has pushed the Sarsfield & Bandon road projects on the long finger till the interurbans are done. Jamups of a few km exist every day because of this. Rumour has it that GSJs were proposed originally but were rejected on cost grounds, leaving us with ridiculous roundabouts.

N8/N25 Dunkettle in Cork.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cork&sll=53.169055,-6.751957&sspn=0.011268,0.029182&ie=UTF8&ll=51.904447,-8.386967&spn=0.005799,0.014591&z=16&iwloc=addr
Its a TOTSO, hence the confusing numbering. The N25 east to N8 west movement is an overpass, but N8 traffic from Dublin and traffic coming through the Lee Tunnel from the south meet on a roundabout, as well as traffic coming off the overpass going other directions. Every day this generates several km of tailbacks in all directions and its getting worse. Whoever decided to put a roundabout at the mouth of the tunnel is an idiot, nothing else. When the Sarsfield & Bandon projects are done this will be a disaster, as there are no short/medium term plans to upgrade this. Heres what will mix on a roundabout soon -
- Mixing traffic from the N25 from Rosslare and N8 from Cork/Glanmire.
- Traffic from the M8 from Dublin
- Traffic from the N25 which will be DC to Ballincollig AT LEAST once Sarsfield/Bandon are sorted.
- A park and ride facility hooked up to the railway line and accessed from the roundabout
- A possible 1200 home development at Dunkettle.
Add to the fact that the junction is space restricted due to the tunnel alignment, a hotel, the protected Dunkettle House, the railway line and a whole host of access roads and this will be a bitch of a thing to upgrade. This WILL be Irelands biggest bottleneck without a shadow of a doubt soon. And avoiding the junction is very difficult and requires a rat run over an old bridge in Glanmire.

M6/M17/N18
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/reference/interchanges/3round.shtml
This is planned to be a three level stack, which is a 1960s British disaster. Having these 3 meeting at this junction will be lunacy.

Theres plenty of alternatives to a three level stack, but they're not being considered at all here probably due to land take.

Oh yeah, and there will be a rest area tagged onto the roundabout here too. Yes, to the south east of this mess will be a traffic generating rest-stop.

Absolute madness whoever signed off on this.

M9/M25/N24
I'll forgive you for assuming that this junction will be a three level stack too, but its not. It'll be much worse and much lower capacity.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/THE_Chris533976/normal_waterf2.jpg

Now really. You tell me that that will have enough capacity. Having the M9 give way to future N24 traffic is LUNACY. The entire thing will be one unnecessary bottleneck. For gods sake put a proper junction in like a parclo or something like that, and not this 'worse than a 3 level stack' nonsense.

Whoever thought this nonsense up should be shot, whoever signed off on it castrated.

Any other junctions to nominate? We could have an Irish version of CBRDs Bad Junctions here with all this tripe. I mean come on. The NRA are building nice motorways but where they meet is, and will be, a disaster of epic proportions.

Zoney · 28-03-2008 1:36pm

N7/N24/R527 (former N24) junction on the Limerick Southern Ring Road. Wholly inadequate and quite dangerous. Not really made any less so by the sprinkling of retro-fitted traffic islands on the bridge; although apparently bonus points for now inhibiting turning for Artics! Traffic lights might be installed. As another bonus, Limerick County Council let developers build new houses right up to the northwest corner of the junction.

Planned N7/N69 junction on the SRR phase 2. Take the existing traffic-choked Cement Factory Roundabout (Factory, N69, R510 - link to Raheen/R526 former N20) and add two slips to/from N7 west. On the north side of the road add another roundabout with access to the wastewater works and add two slips to/from the eastbound N7. Result, traffic fun for everyone, especially as this will be one of the main citybound access points with the omission of citybound link from N7/N20 junction.

ardmacha · 28-03-2008 1:52pm

Airport junction on M1. Useless traffic controlled roundabout installed when a simple trumpet would have done as traffic was approaching from only one side. Combine this idiocy with the need for traffic coming from Belfast to the long term car park to whizz across 4 lanes.

MICKEYG · 28-03-2008 1:53pm

My personal favourite is the Airport junction on the M1. The traffic lights are installed for users who are heading south on the M1 and need to do a U-turn. One extra brdige would allow for the separation of the M1 South to Airport trraffc from the Airport to M1 south traffic.

ga2re2t · 28-03-2008 3:38pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I can safely say that in other European countries these junctions would never be built

...

M7/M8 and M7/M9 junctions.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dublin&ie=UTF8&ll=53.169055,-6.751957&spn=0.011268,0.029182&z=15
As it stands for the M9 and will be for the M8, both of these junctions are needlessly restricted. Travelling north on the (future) M8 or M9, you can only turn east towards Dublin. Including the M8/9 north to M7 west at least would cost pittance (simple slip road).

Chris, I will agree with you that many junction configurations in Ireland are in a desparate state, but beware of thinking that this is only an Irish problem. If you've travelled in Europe you've probably been lucky to travel only through their good junctions. I live in France and I can tell you that there are many junctions that would shock many Irish people because of their ridiculous design. Very often the slip roads are almost non existant meaning that it is very difficult to merge seamlessly into traffic. Granted, this occurs on many of their older roads that were built in the 60's and 70's, but that was their economic boom time. As for hard shoulders, they simply don't exist on many stretchs of road with speed limits of 110 km/h!.

Also, don't be so hard on the M7/M9 interchange. It appears to be a common design. Take a look at the A10/A11 interchange in France:
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=48.541841,1.906857&spn=0.019889,0.040169&z=15

I've never heard any complaints about this junction over here. Yeah, it would be a little logical to have a slip road making it possible for those going north to go west, but that wasn't the purpose of the road. It's a way of forcing people to take specific routes. For example, those going north wanting to go west will do as follows:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&hl=fr&geocode=8150682041438011651,48.430743,1.903704%3B9850982210367115657,48.521193,1.804879&saddr=A10+%4048.430743,+1.903704&daddr=48.51433,1.780815&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=12&sll=48.486121,1.877975&sspn=0.159288,0.32135&ie=UTF8&ll=48.510236,1.873512&spn=0.159213,0.32135&z=12

The same goes for the M7/M9:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&hl=fr&geocode=618168215166765789,53.113361,-6.753613&saddr=N9+%4053.113361,+-6.753613&daddr=53.159741,-6.843367&mra=mi&mrsp=1,0&sz=14&sll=53.159741,-6.831007&sspn=0.036024,0.080338&ie=UTF8&ll=53.144711,-6.785774&spn=0.072073,0.160675&z=13
but who actually wants to do that except locals?

Sorry for being such a bore, but I do agree with about 90% of what you said.

marmajam · 28-03-2008 4:06pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Despite the fact that the much-needed motorways in Ireland are finally being built, I must say that I've noticed in the past and present designs that the actual motorway and dual carriageway junctions are at best, a shambles of penny pinching and traffic-jam causing design. I can safely say that in other European countries these junctions would never be built, but here we seem to be building ridiculous junctions regardless, leaving us with potentially crazy traffic jams and expensive, difficult, avoidable upgrades in the future.

Lets take a look at the list ->

M50 N4/N7 junctions
All two level stacked junctions which are now being upgraded to freeflow at great expense. Should have been built freeflow in the past, I can kinda forgive this one tho as money was tight when the M50 was built.

M50 N3 junction
The plan for this is to have the major movements freeflow with the roundabout in situ for other movements. Now these other 'minor' movements will jam up knowing Dublin and the new M3.

M7/M8 and M7/M9 junctions.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dublin&ie=UTF8&ll=53.169055,-6.751957&spn=0.011268,0.029182&z=15
As it stands for the M9 and will be for the M8, both of these junctions are needlessly restricted. Travelling north on the (future) M8 or M9, you can only turn east towards Dublin. Including the M8/9 north to M7 west at least would cost pittance (simple slip road).

N7/N20 junction in Limerick.
http://www.limericktunnel.com/Section6-N7Interchange.html .
A nice grade separated junction with a movement (N20 north to the top of the pic at Childers Road) is missing. Official line is to stop traffic queuing onto the mainline as Childers will be jammed. I dont buy this. Putting the extra movement in would mean a more complicated, higher and more expensive junction. As it stands, traffic will divert onto the Dock Road interchange and do a U Turn to come back to Childers Road from the west. Which will jam up the Dock Road junction needlessly.

N25 Kinsale, Sarsfield & Bandon road roundabouts
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cork&sll=53.169055,-6.751957&sspn=0.011268,0.029182&ie=UTF8&ll=51.875776,-8.514276&spn=0.011605,0.029182&z=15&iwloc=addr
Googles road numbering is complete trash here!
Yes the problem here is that they are roundabouts. Lets take a major ring road and chuck three multi-arm signal controlled roundabouts onto it. Kinsale road has been grade separated recently but the political nature of Transport21 has pushed the Sarsfield & Bandon road projects on the long finger till the interurbans are done. Jamups of a few km exist every day because of this. Rumour has it that GSJs were proposed originally but were rejected on cost grounds, leaving us with ridiculous roundabouts.

N8/N25 Dunkettle in Cork.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cork&sll=53.169055,-6.751957&sspn=0.011268,0.029182&ie=UTF8&ll=51.904447,-8.386967&spn=0.005799,0.014591&z=16&iwloc=addr
Its a TOTSO, hence the confusing numbering. The N25 east to N8 west movement is an overpass, but N8 traffic from Dublin and traffic coming through the Lee Tunnel from the south meet on a roundabout, as well as traffic coming off the overpass going other directions. Every day this generates several km of tailbacks in all directions and its getting worse. Whoever decided to put a roundabout at the mouth of the tunnel is an idiot, nothing else. When the Sarsfield & Bandon projects are done this will be a disaster, as there are no short/medium term plans to upgrade this. Heres what will mix on a roundabout soon -
- Mixing traffic from the N25 from Rosslare and N8 from Cork/Glanmire.
- Traffic from the M8 from Dublin
- Traffic from the N25 which will be DC to Ballincollig AT LEAST once Sarsfield/Bandon are sorted.
- A park and ride facility hooked up to the railway line and accessed from the roundabout
- A possible 1200 home development at Dunkettle.
Add to the fact that the junction is space restricted due to the tunnel alignment, a hotel, the protected Dunkettle House, the railway line and a whole host of access roads and this will be a bitch of a thing to upgrade. This WILL be Irelands biggest bottleneck without a shadow of a doubt soon. And avoiding the junction is very difficult and requires a rat run over an old bridge in Glanmire.

M6/M17/N18
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/reference/interchanges/3round.shtml
This is planned to be a three level stack, which is a 1960s British disaster. Having these 3 meeting at this junction will be lunacy.

Theres plenty of alternatives to a three level stack, but they're not being considered at all here probably due to land take.

Oh yeah, and there will be a rest area tagged onto the roundabout here too. Yes, to the south east of this mess will be a traffic generating rest-stop.

Absolute madness whoever signed off on this.

M9/M25/N24
I'll forgive you for assuming that this junction will be a three level stack too, but its not. It'll be much worse and much lower capacity.
http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=24&pos=0

Now really. You tell me that that will have enough capacity. Having the M9 give way to future N24 traffic is LUNACY. The entire thing will be one unnecessary bottleneck. For gods sake put a proper junction in like a parclo or something like that, and not this 'worse than a 3 level stack' nonsense.

Whoever thought this nonsense up should be shot, whoever signed off on it castrated.

Any other junctions to nominate? We could have an Irish version of CBRDs Bad Junctions here with all this tripe. I mean come on. The NRA are building nice motorways but where they meet is, and will be, a disaster of epic proportions.

This an infallible proclamation or just a personal opinion?

Victor · 28-03-2008 6:00pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

N7/N20 junction in Limerick.
http://www.limericktunnel.com/Section6-N7Interchange.html .
A nice grade separated junction with a movement (N20 north to the top of the pic at Childers Road) is missing. Official line is to stop traffic queuing onto the mainline as Childers will be jammed. I dont buy this. Putting the extra movement in would mean a more complicated, higher and more expensive junction. As it stands, traffic will divert onto the Dock Road interchange and do a U Turn to come back to Childers Road from the west. Which will jam up the Dock Road junction needlessly.

While this appears to be missing two of the eight movements, Galway-Cork can be achieved using the adjacent roundabout and Waterford-Limerick isn't really needed as it can be done at the previous junction.

I think an extra junction was added to the M7/M8 to allow a Cork-Nenagh type journey.

Zoney · 28-03-2008 6:12pm

Victor: the critical missing movement on the N7/N20 junction will be city-bound access from the N20. This will probably mean everyone from Co. Limerick and Cork commuting in to the city via the old N20 (R526) again, or else jamming up the Dock Road junction.

Mind you, this issue is not the NRA's fault, as the local council at the time were apparently responsible for the decision not to provide access to Carew Park Link Road (to Childers Road) from the N20 on the new junction layout.

Victor · 28-03-2008 6:20pm

You mean you won't be able to go straight on?

Chris_533976 · 28-03-2008 7:38pm

They've made a cute ickle route map to show you which movements are possible. Its a clever little junction I must say as you basically merge two movements togeth on the loop.

http://www.limericktunnel.com/RouteMapInteractive.html

I love it, the little car even puts headlights on going through the tunnel

The movement thats missing is from the bottom of the junction to the top, basically.

Victor · 28-03-2008 7:50pm

Soon, someone will do a version where someone does a driveby on the toll booths.

http://www.limericktunnel.com/RouteMap_RossbrienInterchange.html - thats just silly.

icdg · 28-03-2008 7:54pm

We can't blame the NRA for the original M50 junctions or the M7 / M9 junction, as these were both built before they even existed! We can blame them for replicating the M7/M9 junction with identical restricted junctions for the M4/M6 and M7/M8. You'd think people only wanted to go to/from Dublin and not to places in between!

Victor · 28-03-2008 9:42pm

icdg wrote: »

We can't blame the NRA for the original M50 junctions or the M7 / M9 junction, as these were both built before they even existed! We can blame them for replicating the M7/M9 junction with identical restricted junctions for the M4/M6 and M7/M8. You'd think people only wanted to go to/from Dublin and not to places in between!

In fairness the M4/M6 has a junction 1-2km down the road to complet the options.

AlekSmart · 28-03-2008 10:44pm

May I be so bold as to include the R838-M50 overbridge/junction/sliproady type thing probably more commonly known as the Ballymount Slip Road.

Now that its open there are some very interesting and questionable arrangements in place.
The basic elements involve some dubious sight lines or rather lack of same which facilitates vehicles suddenly appearing at speed out of engineered blind spots.

However,the most basic problem is that this junction has serious capacity problems which will not be addressed by a traffic signal controlled arrangement.

This may even have been belatedly recognised by some anonymous engineer as can be evidenced by the odd kidney shaped central reservation which dominates the approach from Belgard/Cookstown R838 and severley impedes the early positioning of traffic wishing to turn Right onto the M50 South.

If one stands at the Kingswood Luas stop and looks toward the M50 one has a panoramic overview of the system.
The facility of the junction to accomodate TWO lanes of Traffic (1 Ballymount bound-1 M50 Southbound) is seriously compromised by the alignment of the Large Kidney Reservation which effectively reduces the entire junction to a single lane.

Now the really interesting speculative aspect is that due to the built in egg-timer the bottleneck is NOT actually on the NEW junction arrangement and any inbuilt traffic monitoring will not pick up the anomaly.

The resultant restriction of flow on to the M50 South allows the Traffic Signalling arrangement to appear to be functioning when in fact it is inherently incapable of dealing with the current peak-time flow WITHOUT the assistance of the upwind choke-point restriction.

It`s worth bearing in mind that the situation here is currently moderated by the M50 upgrade works which when completed will leave Ballymount to sink beneath a totally unsustainable weight of traffic movements.

The entire situation reverts back to the absolute insanity of linking Two of the major South Dublin Industrial Zones with a single carriageway road befeft of any measures to facilitate the life blood of ALL such area`s.......HEAVY COMMERCIAL VEHICLES......"well holy God Miley,where the fluich did all them shaggin Lorries come from".

Not to worry though,as soon as we finish rezoning the Industrial to Resedential the problem will solve itself....won`t it Virginia

invincibleirish · 28-03-2008 10:51pm

The best way to eliminate those bottlenecks is lots of new Buses & Rail, there i said it, if we upgrade those junctions then more problems will emerge, the UK has lots of Motorway congestion amd they've been at it decades, why commit decade after decade of continuing Roads investment when we can build pricy Rail now.

However im a hypocrite, i drive, i love Motorways, get me out of my car!

Irish and Proud · 29-03-2008 1:04pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

M9/M25/N24
I'll forgive you for assuming that this junction will be a three level stack too, but its not. It'll be much worse and much lower capacity.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/THE_Chris533976/normal_waterf2.jpg

Now really. You tell me that that will have enough capacity. Having the M9 give way to future N24 traffic is LUNACY. The entire thing will be one unnecessary bottleneck. For gods sake put a proper junction in like a parclo or something like that, and not this 'worse than a 3 level stack' nonsense.

Whoever thought this nonsense up should be shot, whoever signed off on it castrated.

Any other junctions to nominate? We could have an Irish version of CBRDs Bad Junctions here with all this tripe. I mean come on. The NRA are building nice motorways but where they meet is, and will be, a disaster of epic proportions.

Like the M50-N3 interchange, the M9-N24-M25 junction is located in a very tricky environment. Given the complex nature of the existing road structure, railways plus the River Suir itself, and having to link 3 national primaries, nothing short of a spaghetti junction would improve on the link-up of the proposed routes. Even if a complex interchange was to be built, the D2M bridge would become a bottleneck. To me, what's proposed is the best option for now, but a zero policy regarding development in the vicinity of the junction would have to be imposed.

Now, a couple of people in SABRE have noted that the 3 leg M9-N24 roundabout would leave room for another road which could serve a large development. This, they say would they lead to major traffic problems. However, it will hopefully not happen as the N24 Mooncoin By-pass will fill the empty space to the West. In the interim, as the routes of the old N9 and N24 will be retained, this should allow the authorities to place the entire junction complex under motorway restrictions thereby severely restricting commercial development potential (they'd have to make do with the old roads!). This in turn could bring about an M24 motorway to as far as Mooncoin.

About future capacity - by the time the junction becomes a major traffic problem, the bridge will probably be under serious pressure too - as well as catering for the N25 traffic, the crossing will also have to multiplex the R710 (outer ring road) to M9 traffic axis (right from initial opening), so another bridge would have to be considered in the future. With this in mind, I'd very simply extend the M9 across the Suir to meet the M25 (West) by means of a simple free-flow merge like the M7-M9 (just north of toll booths - electronic tolling would probably be implemented by then!). The M9-N24 roundabout could be replaced with a rotary, but with North facing slips only (South facing movements would still be via M25 bridge). In the unlikely event of further traffic pressure from the N24, an overpass linking the Mooncoin By-pass to the M25 (East) could be considered - this would by-pass the 2 rotaries.

By the way, I'd nomiate the M1-R132 Airport (J2) and the M1-R132 Gormanston (J7) Juntions as bad junctions. The lane weaving nonsense coming from the M1 towards the Airport could have been relieved by a bridge over the M1 Northbound exit free-flow. As for Gormanston, if you don't know this junction, please get a good map before entering the maze of slip-roads and connectors.

Regards!

fricatus · 30-03-2008 10:37pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

To me, what's proposed is the best option for now...

Why not simply have the M9 terminating at the M25, and the N24 joining it just short of there via one of those junctions like the one where the traffic ball is in Naas (sorry, don't know the technical term!). That junction could be used as the eventual terminus of the Mooncoin bypass, be it motorway or not.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...but a zero policy regarding development in the vicinity of the junction would have to be imposed.

There's already been controversy about KK county council allowing a massive shopping centre right on "their" side of the city boundary in Ferrybank, which will be the biggest in the Waterford area. Waterford city council objected to it because it would undermine the city centre. Somehow I can't see KK county council willingly pass up the opportunity to raise more commercial rates via a business park in the Waterford area! Any zero development policy would have to be imposed from outside... oh and by the way, I'm not biased

Irish and Proud wrote: »

About future capacity - by the time the junction becomes a major traffic problem, the bridge will probably be under serious pressure too - as well as catering for the N25 traffic, the crossing will also have to multiplex the R710 (outer ring road) to M9 traffic axis (right from initial opening), so another bridge would have to be considered in the future. With this in mind, I'd very simply extend the M9 across the Suir to meet the M25 (West) by means of a simple free-flow merge like the M7-M9 (just north of toll booths - electronic tolling would probably be implemented by then!).

True, the M25 bridge will also double up as the route from the southside of Waterford (e.g. airport, WIT) onto the M9, but I think the idea of a second bridge in that same vicinity to carry the M9 across the river is fantasy. If a third, or even fourth, bridge is to be built in Waterford, there are two other crossing points crying out for the allocation of resources: one in the city centre, as an extension of the Mall (current N25) across to Ferrybank; and another as an extension at the eastern end of the R710 (Outer Ring) from Ardkeen to cross the river at Maypark, joining the M25 at Slieverue. That latter one is in the city development plan if I'm not wrong.

Irish and Proud · 31-03-2008 2:30pm

fricatus wrote: »

Why not simply have the M9 terminating at the M25, and the N24 joining it just short of there via one of those junctions like the one where the traffic ball is in Naas (sorry, don't know the technical term!). That junction could be used as the eventual terminus of the Mooncoin bypass, be it motorway or not.

The junction at Naas that you refer to is technically known as a Trumpet Interchange. You could divert the M9, but it would be easier to bring the N24 into the M25 via a Trumpet and have the M9 join the N24 (would be designated M24 then) by similar means. The old road network could then be kept seperate with access via interchanges further out - this would really restrict major development in the area. The only problem is the proximity of the 2 Trumpets and the weaving involved. Cross over slips (like in Dallas)between the junctions would probably be required for safety reasons.

fricatus wrote: »

There's already been controversy about KK county council allowing a massive shopping centre right on "their" side of the city boundary in Ferrybank, which will be the biggest in the Waterford area. Waterford city council objected to it because it would undermine the city centre. Somehow I can't see KK county council willingly pass up the opportunity to raise more commercial rates via a business park in the Waterford area! Any zero development policy would have to be imposed from outside... oh and by the way, I'm not biased .

Well, the planning board should simply refuse everthing within 1-2km of this interchange - they could always quote "scope for further road development" as the reason each time.

fricatus wrote: »

True, the M25 bridge will also double up as the route from the southside of Waterford (e.g. airport, WIT) onto the M9, but I think the idea of a second bridge in that same vicinity to carry the M9 across the river is fantasy. If a third, or even fourth, bridge is to be built in Waterford, there are two other crossing points crying out for the allocation of resources: one in the city centre, as an extension of the Mall (current N25) across to Ferrybank; and another as an extension at the eastern end of the R710 (Outer Ring) from Ardkeen to cross the river at Maypark, joining the M25 at Slieverue. That latter one is in the city development plan if I'm not wrong.

Now, that R710 crossing would be very interesting and would make complete sense. Of course, shipping requirements are not really an issue as the port is located in Belview, so the bridge should be very do-able - wonder what width is the Suir at that point?

Regards!

Zoney · 31-03-2008 3:17pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The only problem is the proximity of the 2 Trumpets and the weaving involved. Cross over slips (like in Dallas)between the junctions would probably be required for safety reasons.

Yes, the problem is that done properly as freeflow, the two junctions, M9/N24 and M9/N25 would need to be designed as one rather large elongated spaghetti-like expensive junction. Even if the N24/M9 would to some extent be a simple trumpet, extra lanes would be needed and segregated right up to a much more complicated M9/N25 layout.

This should probably be the case, for three reasons:

1) Traffic will jump with the opening of the M9, as well as a steady increase as Waterford-Kilkenny and Waterford-Dublin commerce is facilitated by the better route quality and journey time (factors on the current N9 that undoubtedly discourage journeys).

2) Expect similar when the N24 is upgraded, planned 2+1 but more likely now as 2+2 (i.e. cheap dual carriageway with wire barrier, no median or hard shoulders) all the way from Waterford to Limerick.

3) Upgrades are also planned for the N25, increasing long-distance traffic nevermind local traffic using the bypass to avoid the extreme bottleneck of waterford city centre and its single bridge (that opens at times).

However, potentially we'll now have a mini M50 scenario and have to redo things a decade later after a couple of years of crippling traffic jams at peak times. Who knows, it's possible the at-grade roundabout with the N24 could cause problems from day 1 if traffic really is a lot heavier on the M9 than the current N9 (not an unlikely scenario).

Bards · 31-03-2008 3:34pm

Zoney wrote: »

However, potentially we'll now have a mini M50 scenario and have to redo things a decade later after a couple of years of crippling traffic jams at peak times. Who knows, it's possible the at-grade roundabout with the N24 could cause problems from day 1 if traffic really is a lot heavier on the M9 than the current N9 (not an unlikely scenario).

especially since this junction layout was designed prior to 1999 almost a decade ago and pre-celtic tiger

Irish and Proud · 31-03-2008 10:24pm

Zoney wrote: »

Yes, the problem is that done properly as freeflow, the two junctions, M9/N24 and M9/N25 would need to be designed as one rather large elongated spaghetti-like expensive junction. Even if the N24/M9 would to some extent be a simple trumpet, extra lanes would be needed and segregated right up to a much more complicated M9/N25 layout.

This should probably be the case, for three reasons:

1) Traffic will jump with the opening of the M9, as well as a steady increase as Waterford-Kilkenny and Waterford-Dublin commerce is facilitated by the better route quality and journey time (factors on the current N9 that undoubtedly discourage journeys).

2) Expect similar when the N24 is upgraded, planned 2+1 but more likely now as 2+2 (i.e. cheap dual carriageway with wire barrier, no median or hard shoulders) all the way from Waterford to Limerick.

3) Upgrades are also planned for the N25, increasing long-distance traffic nevermind local traffic using the bypass to avoid the extreme bottleneck of waterford city centre and its single bridge (that opens at times).

However, potentially we'll now have a mini M50 scenario and have to redo things a decade later after a couple of years of crippling traffic jams at peak times. Who knows, it's possible the at-grade roundabout with the N24 could cause problems from day 1 if traffic really is a lot heavier on the M9 than the current N9 (not an unlikely scenario).

After reading your post, I might have second thought's on this junction - maybe a spaghetti is the right thing to do after all. How about something like two trumpets connected with 2 carriageways in each direction, which in turn would incorporate grade separated criss-cross connections (ie. the M61-M666-A580 interface in Manchester has criss-cross links). The quad-carriageway configuration could be as follows:

1) M09 South to M25 East (and Belview Port);
2) M24 East to M25 West (and R710 via new bridge);
3) M25 West to M24 West;
4) M25 East to M09 North.

The criss-cross configuration would allow the following:

1) M09 South to M25 West;
2) M24 East to M25 East;
3) M25 West to M09 North;
4) M25 East to M24 West.

I don't think the above would work out too expensive if future proofing for the next 30 years is to be considered. Think of the economies with this junction being built now without the inconvenience of live traffic like on the M50 as you mention yourself. Why cut corners and end up being "cent wise and euro foolish"! Is the slowdown in our economy being made worse by the congestion on the M50, the hub of our national road network (traffic counts for the last couple of years show a decrease - probably on account of the roadworks). Surely, this could only lead to reduced consumer demand and rising costs caused by delays and less desire to travel. Traffic at a crawl can't be too good for the environment either!

So, the answer to your point might be YES!

Regards!

fricatus · 31-03-2008 11:49pm

Zoney wrote: »

Who knows, it's possible the at-grade roundabout with the N24 could cause problems from day 1 if traffic really is a lot heavier on the M9 than the current N9 (not an unlikely scenario).

You're right, not an unlikely scenario... here are a few reasons:

- There's a lot of rat-running on local roads in the morning in that area because of the queues into the city from the area where the junction is being built.

- When the M9 is complete, the attractiveness of doing a Dublin-Waterford run via the N11, N30 and N25 will diminish in favour of M9 runs, except maybe from extreme south Dublin or the Bray area at peak times exiting Dublin.

- I commute Waterford-KK daily (doing so since 2006) and the traffic has increased massively over the past year or so. I would put this down to the effect that the M9 is having before it's even built: people like me are opting to commute, and business are opting to locate, along this utterly crappy -at present - corridor because we know that it's due a massive upgrade within a reasonably short time, whereas I for one would not be working in KK if I didn't know for sure that my journey would be eased big time within a year or two.

And I'm deliberately using the word "eased" here; it probably won't be that much quicker than the current hour it takes, due to congestion at the Waterford Road roundabout in KK and on the Dunmore Road in Waterford, where I live. What will happen is that the constant stress (on me and my vehicle!) of bends and poor road surfaces, plus passing large trucks at close quarters, will disappear when the motorway comes along. Driving conditions will become much more regular and predictable. I can't wait

invincibleirish · 01-04-2008 12:08am

when a new Motorway/DC opens, people panic about the traffic, new jams wil be created the congestion problem will move, more expensive road projects will be needed and the process will repeat itself, as i pointed out earlier, the money should be spent on Public Transport, then in the distance feature you can take Train/Bus From KK to Waterford (you can now but im sure without checking that its a ridiculously useless timetable)

fricatus · 01-04-2008 12:23am

invincibleirish wrote: »

when a new Motorway/DC opens, people panic about the traffic, new jams wil be created the congestion problem will move, more expensive road projects will be needed and the process will repeat itself, as i pointed out earlier, the money should be spent on Public Transport, then in the distance feature you can take Train/Bus From KK to Waterford (you can now but im sure without checking that its a ridiculously useless timetable)

What combination of train and bus will get me from Ardkeen in Waterford to Loughboy in Kilkenny for a 6 a.m. start? I ask the question because that's the sort of service level that would need to be in place to get me out of my car. That's the sort of requirement that my employer puts on me, but public transport is nowhere near fulfilling that.

I'd love to take the bus and the train (and I do when I can, say if I'm working in Dublin for a few days), but it's just not realistic for getting to where I normally work. Even when I do 9-5, what would happen if the bus to the station was late? There wouldn't be a train for another two hours and I'd have to take the bus back home, get my car and drive to work. Rather than risk being late, I just drive.

Until we reach Japanese standards in our public transport system, roll on the M9...

The NRAs fearsome track record on motorway junction design

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