Irish Rural transport - the "secret" existing network [Zombie thread]

munchkin_utd · 31-08-2009 10:32am #1

The abject state of the public transport system in Ireland would be no surprise if you assume routes have to pay their way without subsidy.

Thing is though, there is a "secret" network of busses plying the roads of Ireland which is subsidised to the hilt.

In the paper over the weekend, it was mentioned that the extensive fleet of busses to bring children to school in rural Ireland gets more subsidy than Dublin Bus.
This brings the question of why a working person in the country paying taxes cant avail of using the same subsidised busses as rural kids (as happens in Dublin and Northern Ireland or on the continent) . Heck, if working people were to use the busses and pay the normal fare then the income from the regular passengers would actually reduce the amount of subsidy required to run a service.

Where I was brough up in Cavan, 3 busses leave our village for Cavan town in the Morning at 8 am on 3 different routes taking in virtually the entire hinterland between the 2 places. And a return service again just after 4. Its a crying shame that a normal person cant avail of the service too.

For what reason can Bus Eireann/ Department of Transport/ Local county councils not organise the schools transport to be more than just a kids only transport solution?

The busses are there. The drivers are in place. But you cant even pay to get on the bus - which your tax money is subsidising!!

Zoney · 31-08-2009 11:11am

Then you have other places where the schoolbuses are at capacity and there are ordinary rural buses plying the same route that are under capacity. Now in practice the surplus schoolkids are accommodated on these buses - but afaik it's not official and simply an adhoc arrangement.

Even so I recollect schoolkids having to stand in the aisles of BÉ coaches when I was going to school. Not the model of safety. There was also a lot of fuss made anytime we had to take a normal service.

murphaph · 31-08-2009 12:13pm

These rural schoolbuses are just another hidden subsidy from urban to rural Ireland that oftentimes is completely forgotten about. It costs a LOT of money to live in a one off house, it's just that the actual inhabitants don't have to bear the true cost for some stupid reason.

Chorcai · 31-08-2009 12:27pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The abject state of the public transport system in Ireland would be no surprise if you assume routes have to pay their way without subsidy.

Thing is though, there is a "secret" network of busses plying the roads of Ireland which is subsidised to the hilt.

In the paper over the weekend, it was mentioned that the extensive fleet of busses to bring children to school in rural Ireland gets more subsidy than Dublin Bus.
This brings the question of why a working person in the country paying taxes cant avail of using the same subsidised busses as rural kids (as happens in Dublin and Northern Ireland or on the continent) . Heck, if working people were to use the busses and pay the normal fare then the income from the regular passengers would actually reduce the amount of subsidy required to run a service.

Where I was brough up in Cavan, 3 busses leave our village for Cavan town in the Morning at 8 am on 3 different routes taking in virtually the entire hinterland between the 2 places. And a return service again just after 4. Its a crying shame that a normal person cant avail of the service too.

For what reason can Bus Eireann/ Department of Transport/ Local county councils not organise the schools transport to be more than just a kids only transport solution?

The busses are there. The drivers are in place. But you cant even pay to get on the bus - which your tax money is subsidising!!

Why would you want to use it ? 40+ kids on it, no way. I wouldn't want anyone other than the bus driver and or 1 other adult on a school bus, school buses are there to provid some safety for the kids. Also remember the Navan bus crash ? No seat belts, 3 kids to a seat ? now put adults on to the same buses, along with the fact there are to many pedo's around.

Kalashnikov_Kid · 31-08-2009 12:35pm

Comes down to the simple law of demand and supply Im afraid. The fact of the matter is, if you like it or not, that any Irish town under a population of 15,000 won't be able to run a self-sufficient local bus service, as the numbers just aren't there.

Gran Hermano · 31-08-2009 12:39pm

In parts of rural Scotland they provide the postman with a minibus, a novel solution to providing transport in low density areas.

mikemac · 31-08-2009 12:42pm

Around our way they use the school bus to go from the local villages to the nearest town.
Leaves around 10am and gets back around 3pm.

Now nearly all the village post offices were closed in the last few years so realy it's the only way for some to collect their pensions and go to town.

I've no idea what scheme it runs under.
Rural Transport Initative? Something to do with Minister O'Cuiv anyway.

Not much good to working people but I've used the service, anyone can

Anyway, my memory of the the school bus was three to a seat and this was the same in the Navan bus.
Is there even room for you on your local bus OP?

Zoney · 31-08-2009 12:50pm

murphaph wrote: »

These rural schoolbuses are just another hidden subsidy from urban to rural Ireland that oftentimes is completely forgotten about. It costs a LOT of money to live in a one off house, it's just that the actual inhabitants don't have to bear the true cost for some stupid reason.

murphaph:

It may surprise you to learn this - but not everyone in rural Ireland lives in one-off houses. What do you suggest - Stalinesque forced depopulation of the towns and villages across the country and then turn it into a nature reserve? Stop providing services and ensure the regions become even poorer and cost more in the long run even with service reductions? As it is, the reason rural Ireland is in its current state is a lack of planning and investment by the government to encourage regional commerce - thus more and more people emigrate to Dublin or abroad, exacerbating the problem. Even the flawed NSS would have been some help had it been a serious exercise.

An example is lack of broadband provision - this isn't merely some kind of luxury people in rural areas have to trade off for living where they do. Without it, even small businesses have trouble actually functioning. I'm not talking about places in tiny villages - just small towns and ordinary everyday businesses. It's absurd having to wait in a shop when paying by credit card while you wait for the system to connect to the rest of the world on a dial-up phone line. This is the very least of the difficulties though - you may be aware that running PCs with software requires ever more downloading of updates, patches, etc. from the Internet. I don't think people in Dublin (or other urban areas) entirely comprehend the difficulty of simple business even in reasonably sized towns.

I will accept there are plenty of people in rural Ireland looking for the wrong kind of investment or merely handouts - but it is a genuine fact that towns and villages across the country are becoming less and less able to function. Indeed as people flock to Dublin and the commuter counties, even Greater Dublin is becoming less and less able to function. The respite offered by the downturn (e.g. less traffic) is very temporary as impoverished families in the commuter counties with insufficient services will spell disaster - especially for the next generation.

Even our motorway network as great as it is does not solve the problem - the poor state of our national secondary and regional roads is genuinely hindering what commerce exists in large parts of rural Ireland. Not even just rural Ireland but even the likes of Cork, Limerick and Galway. It's not enough to just connect them better with Dublin - much as that is the first and most important step.

Our poor transport network is also a significant factor in hindering the rationalisation of the health service and the idea of centres of excellence. People still wouldn't like losing local services but it would be a lot easier (and morally acceptable) to do it if you could actually travel from the back of beyond in a sensibly swift and safe manner. We're not talking about needing highways across the countryside - just in some cases even properly surfaced roads would do, whatever about bypasses or upgrades.

murphaph · 31-08-2009 2:18pm

Zoney wrote: »

murphaph:

It may surprise you to learn this - but not everyone in rural Ireland lives in one-off houses. What do you suggest - Stalinesque forced depopulation of the towns and villages across the country and then turn it into a nature reserve? .

No, just charge people for the actual cost of the services they receive. There would be no need to force anybody anywhere if the true cost of the idyllic rural way of life was borne directly by those who seek it.

Zoney wrote: »

Stop providing services and ensure the regions become even poorer and cost more in the long run even with service reductions?.

The 'regions' (rural counties like Mayo for example) have some of the highest disposable income per capita on the state. They are NOT poor. Poor people usually live in cities.

Zoney wrote: »

As it is, the reason rural Ireland is in its current state is a lack of planning and investment by the government to encourage regional commerce - thus more and more people emigrate to Dublin or abroad, exacerbating the problem. Even the flawed NSS would have been some help had it been a serious exercise.

The NSS failed because of local parish pump politics dictating the field of play-a hospital/university/government department/etc. for everyone in the audience stuff is what keeps (dumb) irish voters happy instead of cenralising (quality) services in the cities. Irish people think it's possible to provide great services to low density settlements and one off houses (crappy housing estates tagged onto the side of historic villages are almost as bad btw).

So long as the irish keep thinking that "it's bad to live in cities and good to live in the countryside" the country will not develop. YOU GET THE GOVERNMENT YOU ELECT ;-)

DWCommuter · 31-08-2009 8:38pm

In Ireland we expect too much of everything. After years of oppression and a begging bowl approach to life, independence brought us an insatialbe desire for our own "land" and an expectation that our taxes would pay for everything else needed to serve it and our lives there.

If Ireland had been developed correctly we wouldn't need extensive rural transport to serve commuters. Our cities would be high density, served by excellent public transport and only those who made the decision to live in the stix would actually be driving to work etc. Places like Naas, Navan, Portlaoise, Longford etc would be settlements for those making a choice to live there and understanding the necessity to drive on roads that aren't clogged by thousands of others using them from their 3 bed semis 60 miles away from work. One off bungalows dotted here there and everywhere would've been curtailed and we'd all be happy with ourselves.:D

Sponge Bob · 31-08-2009 9:35pm

murphaph wrote: »

These rural schoolbuses are just another hidden subsidy from urban to rural Ireland that oftentimes is completely forgotten about. It costs a LOT of money to live in a one off house, it's just that the actual inhabitants don't have to bear the true cost for some stupid reason.

More typically uninformed whinging from south Dublin

1. The secondary school year is c180 days . The child pays €300 a year for this or €1.66 a day in rural areas. They are not entitled to anything if they live within 3 miles of the school . Furthermore the bus routes can be up to 3 miles from the house in many cases meaning you need a lift to the bus anyway .

2. In Dublin it costs €6.50 for 10 multimodal journeys or €1.30 a day for most and €10 for 16-18 year olds or €2 a day and the bus is closer to the house and you may change buses darts etc . This is on top of an €80m a year subsidy to Dublin bus in the first place .....shall we say €320 for every one who uses the service in Dublin or 250000 out of 1m persons in the catchment area .

3. The School Transport scheme nationally costs €200m a year apart from family contributions . However there IS an urban element in here as 30% of the overall cost is spent on transporting disabled kids who account for 6% of pupils nationally .

This disabled money is spent in urban and rural areas EQUALLY . Read the Education of Persons with Special Educational Needs Act (2004) which accounts for alot of the increase in recent years ...along with the Navan crash

Therefore ONLY €140m is spent on healthy rural kids and against that

4. Bus Éireann which serves 3 times the population of Dublin Bus gets HALF the annual subsidy that Dublin bus gets at around €40m a year and it is pretty evident to me that any higher rural school bus subsidy would pro rata be making up part of that subvention shortfall for normal bus services .

Logically Bus Eireann should get €240m a year to equal the €80m Dublin Bus subsidy on a population weighed basis , the €160m difference is less than the cost of the School Bus Scheme once disabled kids are removed from the cost .

If you are prepared to give Bus Eireann the same subsidy per capita as Dublin Bus and mandate they run the school buses out of that then by all means scrap the school bus scheme , otherwise please feck off and buy a calculator for yourself before you start your D4 whinging again

Sponge Bob · 31-08-2009 9:53pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Thing is though, there is a "secret" network of busses plying the roads of Ireland which is subsidised to the hilt.

There is a NOT secret programme in addition to Bus Eireann subsidies and which costs €11m per annum. It is called the Rural Transport Programme (RTP) .

They usually operate ultra low density routes and use minibuses . Bus Eireann will not drive minibuses because their drivers cost way too much . Therefore they provide no service in many very rural areas .

http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?Userlang=GA&DocID=2082&mn=&nID=&StartDate=1+January+2009

and

http://www.pobal.ie/Funding%20Programmes/RTP/Pages/Background.aspx

Do not confuse RTP and Bus Eireann and School buses , they are 3 separate programmes and cost less together per capita than Dublin Bus does .

Example of one in Cork

http://ruraltransport.ie/WCRT_Timetable__JUNE09.pdf

murphaph · 31-08-2009 10:35pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

More typically uninformed whinging from south Dublin

1. The secondary school year is c180 days . The child pays €300 a year for this or €1.66 a day in rural areas. They are not entitled to anything if they live within 3 miles of the school . Furthermore the bus routes can be up to 3 miles from the house in many cases meaning you need a lift to the bus anyway .

2. In Dublin it costs €6.50 for 10 multimodal journeys or €1.30 a day for most and €10 for 16-18 year olds or €2 a day and the bus is closer to the house and you may change buses darts etc . This is on top of an €80m a year subsidy to Dublin bus in the first place .....shall we say €320 for every one who uses the service in Dublin or 250000 out of 1m persons in the catchment area .

3. The School Transport scheme nationally costs €200m a year apart from family contributions . However there IS an urban element in here as 30% of the overall cost is spent on transporting disabled kids who account for 6% of pupils nationally .

This disabled money is spent in urban and rural areas EQUALLY . Read the Education of Persons with Special Educational Needs Act (2004) which accounts for alot of the increase in recent years ...along with the Navan crash

Therefore ONLY €140m is spent on healthy rural kids and against that

4. Bus Éireann which serves 3 times the population of Dublin Bus gets HALF the annual subsidy that Dublin bus gets at around €40m a year and it is pretty evident to me that any higher rural school bus subsidy would pro rata be making up part of that subvention shortfall for normal bus services .

Logically Bus Eireann should get €240m a year to equal the €80m Dublin Bus subsidy on a population weighed basis , the €160m difference is less than the cost of the School Bus Scheme once disabled kids are removed from the cost .

If you are prepared to give Bus Eireann the same subsidy per capita as Dublin Bus and mandate they run the school buses out of that then by all means scrap the school bus scheme , otherwise please feck off and buy a calculator for yourself before you start your D4 whinging again

Your sums don't add up SB because you automatically assume that BE should receive a pro-rata identical subsidy as BAC. This is wrong because it is much more cost effective to deliver ALL service to an urban population. The state receives MUCH more bang for its buck when it subsidises a route through an urban area (any urban area, NOT JUST DUBLIN-YOU MADE THIS A DUBLIN -v- "the rest" argument when I originally stated urban/rural. This may be news to you but urban areas exist outside Dublin ;-)

You state that BE serves twice as many people as BAC. This is a slight of hand because the people who choose to live in rural Ireland CANNOT be served with any sort of half decent service whereas those who live in urban areas (Dublin, CORK, LIMERICK etc...) CAN be served with a half decent service for the given subsidy, so MANY more people in urban areas actually USE the bus on a daily basis compared to those who live in difficult to serve rural areas.

Having said ALL that-urban dwellers would HAPPILY give up ALL subsidies in their areas IF all subsidies in rural areas were also abolished-the net result would be either lower taxes and urban dwellers could simply use their extra income to use private bus services, whereas no private operator would run rural services.

Your sums also neglect that Bus Eireann run URBAN services outside Dublin.

In short-as anyone can see-urban living costs less as there is an economy of scale. Short simple and internationally irrefutible. That's why people have lived in cities for a few thousand years now.

Sponge Bob · 31-08-2009 10:53pm

You conveniently forget that Dublin gridlocks easier than Leitrim does and that buses alleviate that gridlock .

But do not present a grand vision of asymettric subsidy again where your figures do not stack up ....simply because they don't stack up .

The multimodal transport subsidy for Dublin school childrens fares I mentioned did not take into account DART subsidies either or indeed the small Luas subsidy ....a bit smaller than RPT but a subsidy it is nevertheless.

Nor have I mentioned the much cheaper fares within Dublin . It costs twice per much per mile to go Galway - Loughrea as Dublin - Bray for example ....that itself is an incentive to not use a car ...and Galway Loughrea is a busy route as is Dublin - Bray .

The overwhelming LACK of subsidy on rural routes belies the fact that some of the cheapest per km routes in the state are busy private bus corridors like Dublin Galway where I can go 200km for €5 at times ....and with no state subvention and generally for €10 .

The only comparable private route in Dublin is from the Liffey to the Airport ....for around €5 too as it happens .

But more than ANYTHING else I am sick of thick cu*ts like Chris Andrews and his acolytes arguing that the subsidy of transport is a ''rural' thing ...when it is not .

DWCommuter · 31-08-2009 11:03pm

"I want, I want, I want, I give....oh hang on there a minute.:rolleyes:

L1011 · 31-08-2009 11:07pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You conveniently forget that Dublin gridlocks easier than Leitrim does and that buses alleviate that gridlock

Carrick On Shannon would beg to differ!

Vic_08 · 31-08-2009 11:42pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Nor have I mentioned the much cheaper fares within Dublin . It costs twice per much per mile to go Galway - Loughrea as Dublin - Bray for example ....that itself is an incentive to not use a car ...and Galway Loughrea is a busy route as is Dublin - Bray .

Population of Loughrea: 4,000 Population of Bray: 32,000
Population of Galway: 72,000 Population of Dublin: 1.6m

Bray is about 15km from Dublin, Loughrea is 35km from Galway.

I fail to see what can possibly be gained from comparing these two journeys beyond highlighting the complete lack of logic of your posts.

Sponge Bob · 31-08-2009 11:51pm

Cost per MILE people . Loughrea is on the Dublin - Galway route .

It always costs more per MILE to commute in the country which is not an issue owing to population densities . However overall transport subsidies in Dublin are much higher per capita and that would partially explain the lesser cost per MILE to the commuter thereafter.

I would be most annoyed if Dublin public transport got a higher subsidy per capita than Galway .....and charged the same anyway.

Blush_01 · 31-08-2009 11:51pm

murphaph wrote: »

No, just charge people for the actual cost of the services they receive. There would be no need to force anybody anywhere if the true cost of the idyllic rural way of life was borne directly by those who seek it.

You do realise that the cost of basic services is up to 25% higher in rural Ireland - electricity being a prime example. Rural life is not the idyllic existence subsidised beyond reason that you paint it to be. As for the actual cost of the service received, where I'm from there is no public transport system to speak of, with the exception of an overloaded secondary school bus route. We still pay taxes to subsidise public transport - including that in urban areas. The pendulum swings both ways.

murphaph wrote: »

The 'regions' (rural counties like Mayo for example) have some of the highest disposable income per capita on the state. They are NOT poor. Poor people usually live in cities.

Is that cash poor or asset poor? It's possible to be cash poor and asset rich, which is the case for quite a few rural dwellers. Poverty is not solely an urban issue.

murphaph wrote: »

So long as the irish keep thinking that "it's bad to live in cities and good to live in the countryside" the country will not develop. YOU GET THE GOVERNMENT YOU ELECT ;-)

And the solution is rural depopulation with mass emigration to urban areas? Where do you propose the rural Irish population move to? How do those working in the agriculture sector - to take one example - commute from their imposed urban dwelling to their place of work without a transport infrastructure of some sort? Should the parts of Ireland not suitably urbanised be cast into the ocean as independent islands to pacify urbanites with no idea of what rural dwelling is actually like?

murphaph wrote: »

In short-as anyone can see-urban living costs less as there is an economy of scale. Short simple and internationally irrefutible. That's why people have lived in cities for a few thousand years now.

I have lived in both rural and urban settings, and if I had a choice I would choose rural dwelling with its isolation, expense and difficulties every time over the comparative ease and claustraphobia of urban living. While the cost of basic services in urban areas might be lower, other factors - cheaper socialising and groceries, for example, balance the whole thing out imho. I'm sure you'll find that people don't necessarily live in cities because they're "cheaper" so much as they are forced to for employment or educational reasons. There are more factors involved in moving to or from an urban area than the cost of living there.

Sure, the slums of Calcutta are only there because the poor rural dwellers thought it'd be much cheaper to live in squalid huts in an urban area than a rural one.

OP - in my 6 years of secondary education I cannot remember there ever being an evening (with the exception of state examination times, when only junior and leaving cert students were on the bus) when our bus was not so full that 3-to-a-seat with some people sitting on bags in the aisle was not the norm. While our bus tickets were subsidised (afaik the household maximum was €85 per term) so are urban schoolchild bus tickets.

Sponge Bob · 01-09-2009 12:10am

IRT is only 'secret' if your knowledge and vision of public transport ultimately starts at Abbey Street and ends in Leixlip.

Sadly for many in this thread that institutionalised myopia and crap stattery is all too evident

munchkin_utd · 01-09-2009 1:01am

Blush_01 wrote: »

OP - in my 6 years of secondary education I cannot remember there ever being an evening (with the exception of state examination times, when only junior and leaving cert students were on the bus) when our bus was not so full that 3-to-a-seat with some people sitting on bags in the aisle was not the norm. While our bus tickets were subsidised (afaik the household maximum was €85 per term) so are urban schoolchild bus tickets.

Same experience as me then too back in the days with regards to overcrowding. But that was then.

Since the Navan disaster things are supposed to have been improved to the stage that all kids should have a seat with seatbelt (and they should be using it!).
So overcrowding shouldnt be an issue. School transport should be less like indian rush hour as it used to be.

And theres where I am coming from. The routes are already there. And capacity is being expanded on them to avoid overcrowding. With some planning (not an irish speciality indeed) you could build in a small amount of extra capacity for paying customers.

Theres many cases, probably the majority, where creating a scheduled published service from a school run, which runs from deepest countryside to a village community school, wouldnt be attractive. And in urban areas you already have bus services running in parallel with school services.

But where you have large coaches going to a county town daily from all corners of a county, from areas which have absolutely no daily service to the county town apart from the school run (which only kids can use), it surely makes sense to exploit these to the full and let the taxpaying, subsidy providing, citizen on to these busses.

antoinolachtnai · 01-09-2009 11:22am

When you add the whole thing up (capital and operating subsidy for the CIE companies, capital subsidy for RPA, rural transport, school transport, fares from passengers, DSFA payment) we spend quite a bit on public transport in this country (and rightly so).

The question is whether we are getting real value for it. It does seem that the way the whole thing is organized is not making the best of the money.

murphaph · 01-09-2009 12:43pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You conveniently forget that Dublin gridlocks easier than Leitrim does and that buses alleviate that gridlock .

But do not present a grand vision of asymettric subsidy again where your figures do not stack up ....simply because they don't stack up .

The multimodal transport subsidy for Dublin school childrens fares I mentioned did not take into account DART subsidies either or indeed the small Luas subsidy ....a bit smaller than RPT but a subsidy it is nevertheless.

Nor have I mentioned the much cheaper fares within Dublin . It costs twice per much per mile to go Galway - Loughrea as Dublin - Bray for example ....that itself is an incentive to not use a car ...and Galway Loughrea is a busy route as is Dublin - Bray .

The overwhelming LACK of subsidy on rural routes belies the fact that some of the cheapest per km routes in the state are busy private bus corridors like Dublin Galway where I can go 200km for €5 at times ....and with no state subvention and generally for €10 .

The only comparable private route in Dublin is from the Liffey to the Airport ....for around €5 too as it happens .

But more than ANYTHING else I am sick of thick cu*ts like Chris Andrews and his acolytes arguing that the subsidy of transport is a ''rural' thing ...when it is not .

SB-Are you really implying that Dublin-Galway INTERCITY buses are equivalent with rural schoolbuses that meander all over the place trying to collect kids from one off houses?

Dublin-Galway is cheap because it links two cities full of people. It is an Intercity service, not a rural one! It' like saying a transatlanic flight is full because loads of people live in the North Atlantic!

Public transport is much more cost effective to deliver in URBAN areas (buslanes can and should be built to tackle gridlock so that's no reason not to run buses in towns!) so it goes without saying that the state receives better value for money when it subsidises urban transport than when it subsidises rural transport. This is undeniable.

Sponge Bob · 01-09-2009 1:28pm

Still not using that calculator I see

antoinolachtnai · 01-09-2009 1:40pm

Really, most public transport should be able to wash its own face in urban areas, at least at the level of service that we have at the moment.

Subsidisation should be done where there is a requirement for subsidy, not in places where there is no need.

Carawaystick · 01-09-2009 7:51pm

Blush_01 wrote: »

You do realise that the cost of basic services is up to 25% higher in rural Ireland - electricity being a prime example.

Only the standing charge part of an ESB connection is dearer on a rural tarrif, the actual units of electricity are the same.
see pages 17 & 18 of this

So Iff you use no electricity from the esb, then it costs 25% more for a connection, but once you actually use some, then the 25% difference in price holds no water.

Zoney · 01-09-2009 8:31pm

*If* you can use it. The amount of blackouts, glitches and even genuine brownouts in parts of the country is unreal. I know of people who have had equipment knocked out permanently by glitches, or who've had to not only invest in UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) gear but have had to buy extra gear after discovering their initial investment didn't provide sufficient protection against voltage spikes.

Mrs OBumble · 02-09-2009 11:50am

Getting back on topic (sort of!):

Does anyone know where I'd find a list of all the rural transport providers/operators?

Do they have to get licences for each service they operate, or is there some kind of exemption? (I mean bus-service licences, not licences for the drivers.)

KC61 · 02-09-2009 12:03pm

Licences are required for all public transport bus services under the 1932 and 1958 Transport Acts.

The latest list of licences (March 2009) is located at:

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=11407&lang=ENG&loc=1701

gunbarrel · 02-09-2009 12:51pm

I normally just read these boards and refrain from commenting on them but the lack of knowledge of basic economics on this thread has astounded me.

I would just like to clarify a few points:

1. When a service provider is paid a subvention or subsidy it is the service user who is being subsidised not the parents of the service user i.e. the School Bus service subsidises the children who use the service, not their parents. This is just like the fact that our education system is very heavily subsidised, it is the children receiving the education are subsidised. As it is unlikely that the kids made the decision to relocate to the country, many of the arguments on this thread are pointless.

2. @ DWCommuter:

"I want, I want, I want, I give....oh hang on there a minute.

Apart from being childish, this comment is wrong. Children receive subsidies from the moment they are born in the form of health care, education, transport where required, childrens' allowance and many other subsidies. The reason that the kids are subsidised is so that when the time comes they will be in a position to contribute to the economy and also to pay their taxes. Over the course of a working life the average person will pay back more than what they received. This is the premise upon which these subsidies are paid.

In fact this is why it appears ironic and hypocritical that the one user who keeps suggesting that rural folk should pay the full cost of the services that they receive currently resides in Berlin (according to his profile). He received these subsidies all through his childhood and now he does not live in the country which means that he himself is not paying the full cost of the services that he received.

3. @ Murphaph

It costs a LOT of money to live in a one off house, it's just that the actual inhabitants don't have to bear the true cost for some stupid reason.

Your repeated insinuations that all rural folk live in one off housing is getting annoying. It is wrong, it is disrespectful to rural folk and it shows that you know little about life outside large urban areas. To this you can add your ridiculous insinuations that the bus stops at every house. They have specific stops, you make it or you miss it.

No, just charge people for the actual cost of the services they receive. There would be no need to force anybody anywhere if the true cost of the idyllic rural way of life was borne directly by those who seek it.

How about paying the true cost of your lifestyle in Berlin like the education you received, the children's allowance, the healthcare etc. Rural folk who are working in Ireland are paying back what they received. Those who left the country are not.

Having said ALL that-urban dwellers would HAPPILY give up ALL subsidies in their areas IF all subsidies in rural areas were also abolished-the net result would be either lower taxes and urban dwellers could simply use their extra income to use private bus services, whereas no private operator would run rural services.

I'll tell you what, you stand for the next General Election, in a large Urban area, on that platform i.e. Urban dwellers will have to pay the full cost of Education, Healthcare, Transport, Water, Sewage and all the many other things that the Government subsidise. If you get elected I will personally re-imburse your election expenses.

Now in an attempt to keep this on topic, OP thank you for starting what would be a very interesting debate if certain posters could look past their ill informed prejudices.

I thinlk there are a number of areas in Ireland where Public and Rural Transport could be combined to provide much better valure for the subsidies. For example there are private transport services running in the midlands which, to the best of my knowledge do not receive a subsidy. One which is based in Athlone is called Flagine. One of the services it runs is from Athlone to Tullamore. It runs from Athlone to Moate via a number of small villages including Mount Temple and then from Moate to Clara to Tullamore. If this company received a subsidy to run an early morning service which could cater for both school kids and workers along the route then we might see a much more cost effective transport service. The subsidy would allow the company to grow further, provide a better service and perhaps even employ more people. All to the benefit of the state and her people.

I agree with Antoin that the problem is not the amount of money we spend on Transport but finding the best bang for our buck.

Carawaystick · 03-09-2009 12:06am

How much are Ryanair passengers subsidised when flying from Farranfore to Dublin?

Why do you categorise Public transport and rural transport separately?

Urban dwellers who have built homes recently would have paid for sewage infrastructure through the development levy taxes charged by local councils.

Urban dwellers who fly from one city to another don't get subsidised travel, unlike people flying to/from rural airports.

gunbarrel · 03-09-2009 12:16am

Carawaystick wrote: »

How much are Ryanair passengers subsidised when flying from Farranfore to Dublin?

Look it up or put in an FOI request. Why do you ignore the fact they also get paid to fly from Dublin to Farranfore?

Why do you categorise Public transport and rural transport separately?

If that is my second last paragraph you are referring to then it should actually read Public Transport and the School Bus scheme, not Rural Transport.

Urban dwellers who have built homes recently would have paid for sewage infrastructure through the development levy taxes charged by local councils.

And culchies in the sticks use septic tanks. So that is one thing we can scratch of the long list of subsidies, however there is still a very long list.

Urban dwellers who fly from one city to another don't get subsidised travel, unlike people flying to/from rural airports.

See that is a lie and you know it. If a Dub wants to fly to Galway he is subsidised every bit as much as the Galwegian is for flying the other way around. The subsidy is equally available to all. And are Dublin and Galway not both cities? How about Dublin and Derry, also subdised for anyone who wants to use the flight, again both urban areas.

Carawaystick · 03-09-2009 12:45am

gunbarrel wrote: »

Carawaystick wrote: »

Look it up or put in an FOI request. Why do you ignore the fact they also get paid to fly from Dublin to Farranfore?

I don't think passengers get paid to fly with Ryanair at all. Ryanair get paid.
If I did fly there, what should I declarer the benefit to be on my form 11 next year? or do ryanair pay tax on the income they receive from the state for this instead of the passenger.

gunbarrel · 03-09-2009 10:32am

Carawaystick wrote: »

gunbarrel wrote: »

I don't think passengers get paid to fly with Ryanair at all.

They dont get paid, they receive a subsidy which makes the flight more affordable. Of course this only applies to flights where Ryanair have a PSO.

Ryanair get paid.

A basic understanding of economics would help you. The subsidy is paid directly to Ryanair on behalf of the customers because it is easier to manage and the level of the subsidy is determined by the number of passengers and the amount of income received i.e they are guarnateed a minimum and the Government make up the shortfall.

If I did fly there, what should I declarer the benefit to be on my form 11 next year? or do ryanair pay tax on the income they receive from the state for this instead of the passenger.

Do you declare a benefit everytime you take a train? Every time you take a bus? If you work for an international company that receives subsidies as an incentive to relocate here? etc etc. No you dont now cop yourself on and stop asking silly questions.

People like you forget that it is the users of these services that are subsidised. You like to pretend that it is rural folk who are receiving all of these subsidies but that is highly unlikely. The subsidy is effectively given to anyone who avails of the services and the services all go both ways. You seem to have it in your head that no urban dweller ever uses any of the PSO (flights) services but that is ridiculous, especially considering two of the PSOs as already mentioned are between cities. And to think that no urban dweller ever flies to Donegal, Sligo or Kerry seems unrealistic.

For an example of this go to Heuston Station, Connolly Station or Bus Áras on a Friday. Watch all the urban dwellers get the train or bus down the country for a weeked, all subsidised going home to see Mammy and Daddy for the weekend. They live and work/study in the city now so they are all urban dwellers. In fact if you wanted to be childish about it you could point out that those who live in Dublin have acess to the most transport subsidies. You can fly to at least 5 destinations on a subsidised flight and you can get buses and trains to just about anywhere in the country, all of which are subsidised (Well IÉ and BÉ anyway).

munchkin_utd · 28-02-2012 10:44am

on 31-08-2009 I posted this to start this thread

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The abject state of the public transport system in Ireland would be no surprise if you assume routes have to pay their way without subsidy.

Thing is though, there is a "secret" network of busses plying the roads of Ireland which is subsidised to the hilt.

In the paper over the weekend, it was mentioned that the extensive fleet of busses to bring children to school in rural Ireland gets more subsidy than Dublin Bus.
This brings the question of why a working person in the country paying taxes cant avail of using the same subsidised busses as rural kids (as happens in Dublin and Northern Ireland or on the continent) . Heck, if working people were to use the busses and pay the normal fare then the income from the regular passengers would actually reduce the amount of subsidy required to run a service.

Where I was brough up in Cavan, 3 busses leave our village for Cavan town in the Morning at 8 am on 3 different routes taking in virtually the entire hinterland between the 2 places. And a return service again just after 4. Its a crying shame that a normal person cant avail of the service too.

For what reason can Bus Eireann/ Department of Transport/ Local county councils not organise the schools transport to be more than just a kids only transport solution?

The busses are there. The drivers are in place. But you cant even pay to get on the bus - which your tax money is subsidising!!

Today, this is being proposed by the government.

One rural service to replace costly range of buses
By Treacy Hogan Environment Correspondent
Tuesday February 28 2012
COMMUTERS and the elderly could soon be using the same bus as schoolchildren.

A new 'rural transport bus' will replace the current dedicated schoolbuses, mini-buses for the elderly and non-emergency HSE transport.

The landmark move, to be announced today, will see all of the current services being integrated into a single rural public transport service.

The duplication of transport services by the Department of Education, the HSE and the Rural Transport Programme, which provides services mainly for the elderly who live in rural areas without any public transport, has, up to now, been a major concern.<snip>

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-rural-service-to-replace-costly-range-of-buses-3032909.html

uncanny the similarity between my copped on suggestion and the copped on proposal by the government!

highlydebased · 28-02-2012 10:48am

I wouldn't mind to see it happen- there's a schoolbus to the end of my road yet the nearest "public transport" bus is 10 minutes drive away!

foggy_lad · 28-02-2012 11:34am

highlydebased wrote: »

I wouldn't mind to see it happen- there's a schoolbus to the end of my road yet the nearest "public transport" bus is 10 minutes drive away!

I could see this working where there is capacity on the school buses but most are full and could not cope with the extra passengers from merging a normal daily service with the school service. Also the non-emergency HSE minibus usually carries a nurse and goes door to door for patients so could not be merged with others due to the extra risk of infection and the extra delay loading and unloading patients. A nice idea but not feasible.

highlydebased · 28-02-2012 11:54am

foggy_lad wrote: »

I could see this working where there is capacity on the school buses but most are full and could not cope with the extra passengers from merging a normal daily service with the school service. Also the non-emergency HSE minibus usually carries a nurse and goes door to door for patients so could not be merged with others due to the extra risk of infection and the extra delay loading and unloading patients. A nice idea but not feasible.

Some but not all are full. Considering the "merged" service probably only carries a handful anyway, I can't forsee a problem. In many cases the schoolbus will actually provide a public transport service like in my scenario described above.

Jehuty42 · 28-02-2012 12:01pm

I don't think that the proposed changes has anything to do with letting paying passengers on. The existing services will continue to operate with no change, this is just a back-room administrative juggle to save money.

foggy_lad · 28-02-2012 12:11pm

highlydebased wrote: »

Some but not all are full. Considering the "merged" service probably only carries a handful anyway, I can't forsee a problem. In many cases the schoolbus will actually provide a public transport service like in my scenario described above.

It could work well where the schools service can be cancelled and children accommodated on slightly extended regular services but most rural services are weekly or twice weekly and serve different areas on different days so it again is a non runner.

munchkin_utd · 28-02-2012 12:34pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

It could work well where the schools service can be cancelled and children accommodated on slightly extended regular services but most rural services are weekly or twice weekly and serve different areas on different days so it again is a non runner.

Its not possible really to generalise as every school run is different and depending on the village/town/ school it may or may not make sense to allow paying/ elderly passengers on a bus.

Even putting the sharing idea aside, theres busses there running about EMPTY making positioning runs that at the very least could be paying their way somewhat.

i.e. my wee village in Cavan.
Bus comes the 15km from Cavan in the morning empty at 7.30.
Runs to Cavan with secondary kids leaving at 8am
Bus leaves Cavan again empty at 8.30am the 15km back to the village and does a run of the countryside half empty there bringing primary kids to school.
After doing that, bus leaves empty for Cavan town at 9.30am

bus sits then the full afternoon in Cavan town.

Then at 3pm, the bus comes the 15km from Cavan empty to do a lap of the locality with primary kids, the bus being half empty as there arent 55 kids to fill the bus.
The bus then empty makes a run the 15km back to Cavan to pick up the secondary kids for 4.15pm and goes back to the village with that load.
The bus then again goes back to Cavan empty in the evening!!

Can you spot a little waste / missed opportunity somewhere

Thats 3 necessary positioning runs each way that are made empty, almost 100km a day.
Made by a bus eireann provided bus that I cannot get on even if I want to pay good money for .
To a village that has no daily scheduled service!!

munchkin_utd · 28-02-2012 1:30pm

The proposals are also mentioned in the examiner.

An ongoing problem has been the inability of many people to access public transport services, despite the operation of school transport or other transport services funded by the State in their areas.

The overall aim of the reforms will be to reduce duplication of services while increasing efficiency and maintaining existing services.
<snip>
In many cases, it is expected that in the future, pensioners, schoolchildren hospital patients and other commuters will be able to use the same service.

As part of the reform, stakeholder organisations will be invited to take part in local working groups to explore the opportunities for transport integration in their region.

Separately, the minister also recently announced plans for the introduction of a rural hackney licence as part of a reform of the taxi industry in recognition of poor public transport services in certain rural communities.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/rural-transport-reforms-on-the-way-185351.html

foggy_lad · 28-02-2012 1:42pm

There is also a child protection issue here, All bus drivers must be Gardai vetted before driving school buses AFAIK so are all the extra passengers going to be Gardai vetted? School buses are exactly that to segregate and protect children on their way to and from school, this is for their protection and also for the comfort and convenience of the travelling public.

parsi · 28-02-2012 2:26pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is also a child protection issue here, All bus drivers must be Gardai vetted before driving school buses AFAIK so are all the extra passengers going to be Gardai vetted? School buses are exactly that to segregate and protect children on their way to and from school, this is for their protection and also for the comfort and convenience of the travelling public.

So you're against the idea of merging services in order to provide a better service to te consumer and reduce rural isolation ?

dowlingm · 28-02-2012 2:37pm

I wonder if bus drivers would welcome other passengers on school buses as a way of mitigating messing?

Foggy - do you lie awake at night worrying about school kids who travel on public buses in the cities?

I think the problem is not so much that RTP and school buses are segmented so much that it should be easy to find out when they run. Accordingly any "open to the public" service should have its schedule published by the NTA as a GTFS feed along with BE/IE/DB - a Google Maps equipped device would be able to immediately plan door to door journeys from rural areas and not just urban ones as is likely in the future.

foggy_lad · 28-02-2012 3:01pm

parsi wrote: »

So you're against the idea of merging services in order to provide a better service to te consumer and reduce rural isolation ?

No

If people want to live in the sticks they should make their own arrangements to get their children to school or home-school them!

parsi · 28-02-2012 3:44pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

parsi wrote: »

So you're against the idea of merging services in order to provide a better service to te consumer and reduce rural isolation ?

No

If people want to live in the sticks they should make their own arrangements to get their children to school or home-school them!

Ah. Your earlier posts suggested that your objections were based on infection control and child protection issues.

How far from Cork or Dublin do you think we should state that "the sticks" begin ? Would - for instance - Carlow be considered to be the sticks in terms of travelling to Dublin ?

munchkin_utd · 28-02-2012 5:35pm

the Deloitte report into efficiencies in Bus Eireann and Dublin bus also mention similar initiatives as I suggested and the government is now planing to implement.

Strategic opportunities for Bus Éireann
In light of the deteriorating financial situation facing the company, due to falling passenger numbers
and increasing costs, Bus Éireann will need to assess strategic opportunities:
Subcontracting services to other operators

Integration with Rural Transportation Programme

Integration with Health Service Executive requirements

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/11393-0.pdf

Publish date Jan '09 so before I got my speak in here on boards!
Still, 3 years and a month on and theres 600 million+ spent on school and HSE runs since that particular report.

charlemont · 28-02-2012 5:48pm

Ireland has/had such low density and large amounts of of land that if we actually had any real planning to begin with we could have built these bungalows/one-off housing around the edge of our cities/larger towns creating large but clean suburbs with actual footpaths and public lighting, Instead most areas that were created with large bungalows/one-off housing don't even have footpaths, lights or decent wide roads and most of the houses are divided by fields thus ensuring public transport doesn't hasn't a hope.

Mrs OBumble · 29-02-2012 1:03am

I look forward to seeing them try to integrate the "ring up the night before and we'll pick you up at home" services with scheduled school runs.

I was quite surprised at how many of these there are in Galway, and how hard it was to track down information about them.

Some of the rural transport people do charge a fee - except that I suspect most of the passengers will qualify for a free travel pass.

foggy_lad · 29-02-2012 2:20am

JustMary wrote: »

I look forward to seeing them try to integrate the "ring up the night before and we'll pick you up at home" services with scheduled school runs.

I was quite surprised at how many of these there are in Galway, and how hard it was to track down information about them.

Some of the rural transport people do charge a fee - except that I suspect most of the passengers will qualify for a free travel pass.

Most of those services are the only means elderly and disabled people have of getting out to a town to do a bit of shopping for a few hours or even go to the library to return books maybe once or twice a week.

Irish Rural transport - the "secret" existing network [Zombie thread]

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