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Resignation Before Dismissal

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  • 27-01-2014 4:12pm
    #1
    Soups123
    Registered Users Posts: 8,967 ✭✭✭


    Hi

    My pal is currently going through a disciplinary process in work. I dont know all the details but it relates to doing personal work during working hours.

    He had been bouncing how he handled it off me but its a bit outside of my comfort zone. Were he is at now is he feels that come the end of the process that they will look to dismiss him.

    The question I have is if he decides to resign now mid process are they obliged to take his resignation? He doesnt want to have a dismissal on his record so will resign as he was planning on leaving anyway.

    Thanks


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    #2
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Does he have another job to step into? If not and he resigns, he won't be any dole for around 9 weeks.


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    #3
    Soups123
    Registered Users Posts: 8,967 ✭✭✭Soups123


    yes he is interviewing and should be good, money isnt his concern its really the dismissal on his record he is with them about 6 or 7 years.

    does him deciding to resign in advance of any notice of dismal stand or can they withhold acceptance of his resignation and dismis him in a few weeks time?


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    #4
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Soups123 wrote: »
    yes he is interviewing and should be good, money isnt his concern its really the dismissal on his record he is with them about 6 or 7 years.

    does him deciding to resign in advance of any notice of dismal stand or can they withhold acceptance of his resignation and dismis him in a few weeks time?
    They won't be able to dismiss him as he won't be there to go through the procedure leading up to dismissal. If he doesn't need the money, then sure, leave now. Offer to work the notice period, even though they may waive it.


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    #5
    Soups123
    Registered Users Posts: 8,967 ✭✭✭Soups123


    No Pants wrote: »
    They won't be able to dismiss him as he won't be there to go through the procedure leading up to dismissal. If he doesn't need the money, then sure, leave now. Offer to work the notice period, even though they may waive it.

    Thanks this is what I thought but wasnt sure, tks


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    #6
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Soups123 wrote: »
    Thanks this is what I thought but wasnt sure, tks
    If a company decides to dismiss someone and they're not complete cowboys and want to do it properly so that they don't end up in front of a court, then it's time consuming and requires quite a bit of paperwork. If you resign, then they avoid all that.


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    #7
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,123 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    To resign, he'll have to give notice, and at least in principle they can dismiss him for cause during the notice period.

    It might seem a bit vindictive, though. I think most employers would let it go.


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    #8
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    To resign, he'll have to give notice, and at least in principle they can dismiss him for cause during the notice period.

    It might seem a bit vindictive, though. I think most employers would let it go.
    True, always give notice and offer to work it. But at that stage there are any number of ways to avoid the necessary disciplinary meetings during the notice period and run down the clock to your leaving date.


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    #9
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,123 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    No Pants wrote: »
    True, always give notice and offer to work it. But at that stage there are any number of ways to avoid the necessary disciplinary meetings during the notice period and run down the clock to your leaving date.
    That depends on how far advance the disciplinary proceeding already is.

    But, as I say, I think the point is moot. Dismissal is time-consuming, expensive and risky, and since the object is to get rid of someone there is really very little reason to proceed with dismissal when someone has resigned. You have acheived your objective; why spend more time and incur more trouble when there is nothing to be gained?


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    #10
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    I'm wondering what "on his record" mean regarding the dismissal. Is he worried about a bad reference as in sawing he was dismissed?
    If they are likely to offer this in a reference then they are just as likely to say he resigned during a disciplinary process, this would be much the same thing.
    He's going to gain nothing by running away now, other than not giving them the satisfaction of dismissing him.


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    #11
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    No Pants wrote: »
    They won't be able to dismiss him as he won't be there to go through the procedure leading up to dismissal. If he doesn't need the money, then sure, leave now. Offer to work the notice period, even though they may waive it.

    That's not really true.
    He can be dismissed in his absence.
    I've seen documents sent out via registered post as an employee refused to attend.

    Following your line of thinking, if an employee walked out with no notice, how do a company terminate their employment?


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    #12
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    bbam wrote: »
    That's not really true.
    He can be dismissed in his absence.
    I've seen documents sent out via registered post as an employee refused to attend.

    Following your line of thinking, if an employee walked out with no notice, how do a company terminate their employment?
    No, don't cut all contact obviously, but you could take time off sick due to the stress of the entire process. They would then have to begin an entirely new process to manage that absence. Take holidays left over, etc. Run out the clock, not ignore them.


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    #13
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #14
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,353 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    bbam wrote: »
    I'm wondering what "on his record" mean regarding the dismissal. Is he worried about a bad reference as in sawing he was dismissed?
    If they are likely to offer this in a reference then they are just as likely to say he resigned during a disciplinary process, this would be much the same thing.
    He's going to gain nothing by running away now, other than not giving them the satisfaction of dismissing him.

    Before I got to this post I was of the same mind. Running away from the disciplinary process by resigning doesn't mean that the employer is going to 'forget' why they were in the process of trying to get rid of him so it's not like resigning is going to mean a glowing reference vs. one which says that he was dismissed, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

    I'm frankly a bit mystified as to how the individual is going to gain anything by resigning. What 'record' is he worried about? If he needs a reference from his current employer, I can't see how it's going to help him get another job, whether he resigns early or gets fired, one reference will be as bad as the other. A prospective employer may feel that if you resign, it implies guilt whereas if you stayed and fought tooth and nail and then got fired, it at least indicated that you felt that you had some case to present in your defence.

    In certain state agencies, a resignation can be refused if the employee is going through a disciplinary process. I'm assuming this doesn't apply in this case but just pointing it out in case it was overlooked by the OP who hasn't told us much about where his 'friend' works.


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    #15
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Negotiate with the employer. Speak to HR off the record and offer to resign in return for a good reference. Seek independent legal advice, which the employer will most likely insist he/you do anyway. Get the employer to draft a non-disclosure agreement which both parties sign.


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    #16
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #17
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Most large firms don't give oral references.

    oooooooh matron.


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    #18
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #19
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Of course one should never underestimate the Irish grape vine. I did most of my reference checks by ringing up someone I knew, unprofessional? Perhaps. Interesting? Most certainly!


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    #20
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    coylemj wrote: »
    In certain state agencies, a resignation can be refused if the employee is going through a disciplinary process.
    How does that work when the end of the notice period is up and you stop going in?


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    #21
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #22
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,123 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    No Pants wrote: »
    How does that work when the end of the notice period is up and you stop going in?
    "Absent without leave" until the disciplinary process is completed.


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    #23
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    "Absent without leave" until the disciplinary process is completed.
    Would that not potentially start an entirely new disciplinary process? I can't remember if AWOL comes under absence or conduct.


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    #24
    Soups123
    Registered Users Posts: 8,967 ✭✭✭Soups123


    First offs thanks to all for commenting.

    To clear up some points, the process is only a week and a half in so early doors, its a corporate environment so references are HR records only no personal references, the situation he is trying to avoid is having his record reported as a dismissal rather a resignation for this job.

    He is leaving anyway and just couldn't be arsed going through the process, he also admits what he done (doing personal work during working hours). They have offered redundancy recently and he didn't take it so his gut is they will go down the dismissal route or make it a difficult few months for him.

    Most jobs in this industry get employment records from previous employers if he needs a personal reference also he has that covered from his boss who has said he can use him.

    as for the poster with the 'friend', I said 'Pal', but in fairness I always read posts like this with that in my mind. I get to ask from the comfort of my desk :)


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    #25
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Soups123 wrote: »
    To clear up some points, the process is only a week and a half in so early doors, its a corporate environment so references are HR records only no personal references, the situation he is trying to avoid is having his record reported as a dismissal rather a resignation for this job.
    Any reference that I've ever seen never mentioned anything about how or why someone left. It just said "X worked here from Y date until Z date." It may then say something about performance, but often not.
    Soups123 wrote: »
    He is leaving anyway and just couldn't be arsed going through the process, he also admits what he done (doing personal work during working hours).
    Probably shouldn't have done that. It's essentially stealing, which makes it gross misconduct and opens the door for summary dismissal.
    Soups123 wrote: »
    They have offered redundancy recently and he didn't take it so his gut is they will go down the dismissal route or make it a difficult few months for him.
    Keep any paperwork that refers to that, it may turn out to be useful.
    Soups123 wrote: »
    Most jobs in this industry get employment records from previous employers if he needs a personal reference also he has that covered from his boss who has said he can use him.
    Good, they're the most valuable references really.


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    #26
    Soups123
    Registered Users Posts: 8,967 ✭✭✭Soups123


    Thanks your feedback has been really helpful.

    Yep he acknowledges he was in the wrong, it was nothing major but the day he did it very obvious and understands its ground for dismissal, though lesson but learnt.

    The concern was they could say the end date as dismissed on rather than resigned on.


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