When to pull the plug.

dublin runner · 22-11-2014 6:42pm #1

I thought I would reopen an age old debate, one that has been discussed many times over. The thorny issue of having a DNF next to your name entered my mind today. We have all been there. We all know the feeling. The relenting desire to stop and to in some way, take the easy option. Asides from injury, is there a point where pulling out is the correct choice?

I will give you a personal example to get the ball rolling. During this year's Dublin Marathon things were obviously not going my way. By mile 5, I knew my target was gone. By mile 8, a finish looked unlikely (and now my secondary target long disappeared). I wasn't injured so I persevered, convinced it was the right thing to do. In the aftermath of the race the immediate reaction was quite positive. I believed that continuing was the difficult but right choice. I estimated that the negative psychological impact would have been too great. That same sentiment continued until today. I now believe I should have pulled out at mile 8, having given the race every opportunity.

Most runners have at some point had the urge to drop out of a race (especially the shorter distances) when things get tough. This battling quality is vital in our sport. The ability to keep composed when things get hard is what separates the good from the great.

Let's for argument sake compare a long distance race (let's say 26.2+ miles) to a shorter distance. For example, finishing a 10k on a bad day is one thing but finishing a marathon on a bad day is quite another. Let's again take my marathon experience. Was I really the better runner for seeing it out or was the prudent choice actually to step off the course?

It's a lot easier to 'lock-and-reload' when racing 5/10k races but surely the longer distance race should be viewed differently? At least you can run another marathon a week or two later by dropping out (after much trying). Then again, you can't always wait for the perfect race.

paddybarry · 22-11-2014 7:09pm

Only reason for a DNF is injury in my opinion. If you go down the route of DNF when things dont go your way, it becomes a bad habit and an easy out.

All you can do for any given race is train appropriately and hope to make the start line. Somedays you hit your target, some you dont (for all kinds of reasons understood and not understood). At least by finishing a race you know you have fulfilled your potential on that day and that is all you can really do. Hopefully the next will be better.

As a teacher, this is the message I try to get across to my students. Not everyone can get an A1/600 points but everyone can apply themselves the right way (doing homework correctly, studying correctly, being puntual, being organised etc). Once they have done that, they will by and large get the grade they deserve.

RacoonQueen · 22-11-2014 7:15pm

I DNF'd in a 4K(5K?) cross country race last February. I went into it unfit and mentally drained. Had absolutely nothing to give and stepped off the course when I wasn't far off last place (ultrapercy was doing a warm down in the opposite direction and tried to motivate me but it fell on deaf ears). I was devastated and despite the shortness of the race it was the most difficult decision I'd ever made in a race. I hit rock bottom that day but it turned out to be the right decision for me.

Think it was my only DNF (other than one marathon where I stopped at the half marathon finish but I was ill that day)

ThebitterLemon · 22-11-2014 7:18pm

I've done a fair few marathons and I've had about 8 DNF's at the distance. (Horrible horrible feeling!)

I've also ended up walking the last few miles in maybe 10 others.

The thing about DNFing is that it can become a habit and can also play on your mind the next time out. I'd like to think that in future I'll never DNF unless I'm injured, if the plan is going pear shaped have a last resort back up plan that allows you to completely slow down and get to the finish, in my opinion it's better for you mentally. I did Amsterdam a couple of weeks ago and came within a whisker of dropping out, I managed to finish and despite been very disappointed with the result it was better for me to have finished and 4 weeks later I was able to PB.

DNFing when not injured is the easy option (unless of course you're an elite athlete having a bad day, and you DNF to save yourself to achieve a target time on your next outing)

TbL

ThePiedPiper · 22-11-2014 7:52pm

I came very close to DNFing in a couple of races, was going through absolute mental torture in the Berlin marathon a few years ago when I was doubled over at the side of the course at 18 miles. I wasn't injured, just absolutely blown up and distraught that sub3 was gone. I jogged in the last few miles, finishing in 3:05, just because family members had come to see me run.

Another race I pretty much DNFed.. When in the lead of an off road section of a half marathon, I led the field the wrong way up into very rocky and dangerous terrain. The field continued to race down the descent into the roads whereas I just walked carefully down the hills letting everyone run after me. I would have DNFed, actually stepped off the course in a blind rage with 100m to go, ranting and raving at Mrs TPP about the entire thing, but she convinced me to walk across the line and finished what I'd started so well.

I've become a much better racer having decided not to DNF in races when it wasn't going well. The only way I'll not be finishing a race is if I hit the deck. The tough days make you stronger.

RayCun · 22-11-2014 8:39pm

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

if the plan is going pear shaped have a last resort back up plan that allows you to completely slow down and get to the finish, in my opinion it's better for you mentally.

Is that really better though? Deciding to slow down and get to the finish instead of deciding to DNF? The temptation to just jog it out, or turn the 10k into a tempo run, is more insidious.

ThebitterLemon · 22-11-2014 8:49pm

RayCun wrote: »

Is that really better though? Deciding to slow down and get to the finish instead of deciding to DNF? The temptation to just jog it out, or turn the 10k into a tempo run, is more insidious.

I think it is RC, I've experienced both. It's harder to slog out a last few painful miles than DNF. I'm only speaking about the marathon as I don't think I've ever DNFed a shorter race.

The temptation to DNF at mile 20 when things have gone wrong is much greater than the slow down and finish approach.

TbL

dublin runner · 22-11-2014 8:55pm

I agree with a lot above.

I will isolate the marathon distance as it's the apex of many peoples training year and is generally only attempted once/twice a year. Surely a finish 'at all costs' approach is a kamikaze mindset. As mentioned above, elite athletes drop out if it's not their day. While we are not professionals, should our approach be all the different? I know many will disagree but what's the real point in running a terrible race, nowhere near your current capabilities and way outside your PB. Is there really that much gained?

Sometimes it simply won't be your day. You have to battle but I think there is validity in stepping off the course and saving your marathon (for example) for another race down the line. I have both read and heard of many people having an off day and doing themselves no justice in struggling the 15 or so miles home. Sure, all that improvement you have made in training doesn't suddenly disappear but your next attempt may be 6 months or 12+ months away.

I was a 'finish at all costs' kind of runner but now I am not sure. It's a fine line but I wonder whether it's possible to strike a balance.

RayCun · 22-11-2014 9:00pm

slogging it out is definitely harder. On the scale of difficulty there's
1 - keep pushing
2 - finish however you can
3 - drop out

but on the scale of "talking yourself into doing it", its easier to talk yourself into 'just finishing' than into dropping out, so its more of a temptation

ThebitterLemon · 22-11-2014 9:06pm

RayCun wrote: »

slogging it out is definitely harder. On the scale of difficulty there's
1 - keep pushing
2 - finish however you can
3 - drop out

but on the scale of "talking yourself into doing it", its easier to talk yourself into 'just finishing' than into dropping out, so its more of a temptation

Agreed, but any marathon I'm trying to PB, if it's gotten to the stage that I'm talking to myself about DNFing or slowing down, it's always because I'm goosed and can't push on, so for me it's better to finish.

I get your point though coz you could validly ask me at that stage why I don't just drop out. For me it's about mental fortitude and trying to train your mind and body to adapt and improve.

That said I going for a sub 3 next attempt so I'll probably DNF

TbL

TRR_the_turd · 22-11-2014 9:42pm

dublin runner wrote: »

I will give you a personal example to get the ball rolling. During this year's Dublin Marathon things were obviously not going my way. By mile 5, I knew my target was gone. By mile 8, a finish looked unlikely (and now my secondary target long disappeared). I wasn't injured so I persevered, convinced it was the right thing to do. In the aftermath of the race the immediate reaction was quite positive. I believed that continuing was the difficult but right choice. I estimated that the negative psychological impact would have been too great. That same sentiment continued until today. I now believe I should have pulled out at mile 8, having given the race every opportunity.

The real conversation you need to have with yourself is why your primary, secondary and tertiary targets were gone by 8 miles! Sort that out before considering the question of DNFs

ThebitterLemon · 22-11-2014 9:50pm

What's a turdiary target

TbL

dublin runner · 22-11-2014 10:25pm

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

The real conversation you need to have with yourself is why your primary, secondary and tertiary targets were gone by 8 miles! Sort that out before considering the question of DNFs

After many beers, a cry and a few sleepless nights I have come to a reason or two where it all went wrong!!

I feel that some people, including myself, pat ourselves on the back for finishing and look on it as a kind of moral victory. I just wonder is there a point, if there is even a point, when it becomes the sensible decision.

tunguska · 22-11-2014 10:37pm

I used to be die hard "unless you're injured, you finish". Makes you tough and all that. But now im not so sure. I think for a marathon, the wise option is to knock it on the head if things are going that badly. At least you'll recover quickly and could potentially go again in a few weeks.

TRR_the_turd · 22-11-2014 11:36pm

dublin runner wrote: »

After many beers, a cry and a few sleepless nights I have come to a reason or two where it all went wrong!!

I feel that some people, including myself, pat ourselves on the back for finishing and look on it as a kind of moral victory. I just wonder is there a point, if there is even a point, when it becomes the sensible decision.

You were on for a 3 minute PB at half way so maybe your expectations at 8 miles were too high. You also finished 170 places higher than you did last year!

Runners concentrate on times and PBs too much. The conditions were the same for everyone. It's your home marathon and a championship race. Forget times.

Last year I wasn't 100% and was nearly celebrating the ****e weather because I knew it would take the time element out of the day. I ran stupidly and blew up but my finishing position is still something I can point to. I Also picked up a m35 Dublin team medal. Means a little to me but a huge amount to one of the lads on the team. You picked up a national senior team medal so forgive me if I want to bitch slap you for considering to drop out. Why would you? Was there a viable alternative? You still had to get back to the finish anyway. You can't run a PB every day. And don't compare us to professionals. They are making a living from it and definitely have a plan b if things aren't going to plan!

gerard_65 · 22-11-2014 11:44pm

"If you find yourself going through hell, keep going".

dublin runner · 23-11-2014 12:16am

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

You were on for a 3 minute PB at half way so maybe your expectations at 8 miles were too high. You also finished 170 places higher than you did last year!

Runners concentrate on times and PBs too much. The conditions were the same for everyone. It's your home marathon and a championship race. Forget times.

Last year I wasn't 100% and was nearly celebrating the ****e weather because I knew it would take the time element out of the day. I ran stupidly and blew up but my finishing position is still something I can point to. I Also picked up a m35 Dublin team medal. Means a little to me but a huge amount to one of the lads on the team. You picked up a national senior team medal so forgive me if I want to bitch slap you for considering to drop out. Why would you? Was there a viable alternative? You still had to get back to the finish anyway. You can't run a PB every day. And don't compare us to professionals. They are making a living from it and definitely have a plan b if things aren't going to plan!

Bitch slap? Haha! Come and 'av a go if you think you're hard enough

Ok, ok. Obviously I am not comparing us to professionals but that doesn't mean that we should ignore some of their tactics/philosophies. I don't want to make this about me, really I don't! You mentioned my times, which is fair enough. My training was far from perfect but I proved that running 16+ miles (Kilomarathon) @6.06 (2.40 pace) was within my current ability, especially on a tough hot day. When you hit mile 5 struggling @6.2x there is something up. Blowing up later in the race is something I could live with but for reasons, most well within my control, I really struggled from mile 5. The last 18 miles were torture, honestly. That's why I pose the question.

Yes, I won a medal. Yes, I was delighted but I am fully aware that my team-mates won me my medal, not me! I am not interested in times or PBs. What interests me is doing myself justice on the day.

I am genuinely interested in hearing peoples thoughts on the matter. What was my time on the RER calculator?! :cool:

TRR_the_turd · 23-11-2014 12:56am

dublin runner wrote: »

What interests me is doing myself justice on the day.

you stated above about people around here patting each other on the back so I've purposely taken my sparring gloves off. Probably going to come across as more of a dick (realist) than usual. I was spectating a 4 points and mentally you didn't look like you were in the game. You weren't the only one, at 3 and 10 miles you could spot the runners who were already looking for a get out of jail card!

dublin runner wrote: »

I am genuinely interested in hearing peoples thoughts on the matter. What was my time on the RER calculator?! :cool:

Before the race I didn't think you'd break 2.50 based on the training you'd logged here. My RER would have given you a 2.49 on a cool DCM day with the same course (probably over generous). You're a strong stamina based type of runner. Similar to TBB in many ways, so in my mind conditions shouldn't have effected you as much as some others*. He was about a minute off where I thought he'd be but he was obviously on top of the mental side of the race.

As an aside I've just looked up last year results and 135th position (you're position this year) was 2 minutes quicker than you. Therefore, the old RER isn't too far off, although real empirical data would suggest the RER is too lenient (a well known fact).

*all my own opinion. stick two fingers up at it or disagree

dublin runner · 23-11-2014 1:17am

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

you stated above about people around here patting each other on the back so I've purposely taken my sparring gloves off. Probably going to come across as more of a dick (realist) than usual. I was spectating a 4 points and mentally you didn't look like you were in the game. You weren't the only one, at 3 and 10 miles you could spot the runners who were already looking for a get out of jail card!

Before the race I didn't think you'd break 2.50 based on the training you'd logged here. My RER would have given you a 2.49 on a cool DCM day with the same course (probably over generous). You're a strong stamina based type of runner. Similar to TBB in many ways, so in my mind conditions shouldn't have effected you as much as some others*. He was about a minute off where I thought he'd be but he was obviously on top of the mental side of the race.

As an aside I've just looked up last year results and 135th position (you're position this year) was 2 minutes quicker than you. Therefore, the old RER isn't too far off, although real empirical data would suggest the RER is too lenient (a well known fact).

*all my own opinion. stick two fingers up at it or disagree

An honest appraisal, I like it. I enjoyed reading that drinking my Tyksie beer!

Can I take from your comments that you are a 'finish the race type of runner'? I really still think I am and will continue to be but during today's warm down I questioned for the first time ever was that attitude the correct one.

-I now really REALLY want to better that RER predictor!

TRR_the_turd · 23-11-2014 1:26am

dublin runner wrote: »

An honest appraisal, I like it. I enjoyed reading that drinking my Tyksie beer!

Can I take from your comments that you are a 'finish the race type of runner'? I really still think I am and will continue to be but during today's warm down I questioned for the first time ever was that attitude the correct one.

-I now really REALLY want to better that RER predictor!

Yes I'd always finish, within reason, for the reasons pointed out above, regards bad habits etc. Most of my best marathons have come on the back of a bad one! You learn something, makes you tougher. I always set about 6-7 time goals before a marathon. Maybe if time goal 7 slipped away I'd pull the plug. However goal 7 is usually so soft I'd want to be injured for that to happen.

Let's assume you pulled the plug in DCM! What would have you done instead, to fill the void of abject failure?

By the way were you considering dropping out of a parkrun today? If you were I've got two bitch slaps lined up for you!

dublin runner · 23-11-2014 2:20am

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

However goal 7 is usually so soft I'd want to be injured for that to happen.

Let's assume you pulled the plug in DCM! What would have you done instead, to fill the void of abject failure?

By the way were you considering dropping out of a parkrun today? If you were I've got two bitch slaps lined up for you!

7 goals? That's a lot of goals!

If I pulled the plug I would have beaten myself up and struggled to get back training, never mind racing. It would have killed me not to to finish with so many friends and people I care about supporting me on the course and the lazy f!ckers ('friends'!) waiting in the pub. There was no back-up, no get of jail. Does that make it the right choice (in finishing)? Yes and No. As I said, today was the first time I thought it actually was the wrong choice.

Haha! Today was a good tempo run of a testing enough course. I really enjoyed it. Of course I thought about dropping out. Sure that happens on every run!

Krusty_Clown · 23-11-2014 10:45am

dublin runner wrote: »

I am genuinely interested in hearing peoples thoughts on the matter.

If you quit, then in the short term, you get to fight another day. But in the long term, I reckon it's detrimental as you're creating options for yourself in the future. So it really depends on whether you are in this running lark for the short term thrills, or taking a longer term view. As someone who has run a number of disappointing marathons after doing long, hard training campaigns, the marathons where I haven't hit my targets are those that provide the most fuel for my next goal. It's much, much harder to get back on the wagon after a long hard marathon training campaign when you actually hit your goal.

Perhaps instead of dwelling too greatly on the recent performance, you'd be bet better off getting a blank piece of paper and planning out the next 18-24 months? Decide on your high level goals, and start putting together a set of interim goals that will get you there.

ultrapercy · 23-11-2014 3:17pm

dublin runner wrote: »

7 goals? That's a lot of goals!

If I pulled the plug I would have beaten myself up and struggled to get back training, never mind racing. It would have killed me not to to finish with so many friends and people I care about supporting me on the course and the lazy f!ckers ('friends'!) waiting in the pub. There was no back-up, no get of jail. Does that make it the right choice (in finishing)? Yes and No. As I said, today was the first time I thought it actually was the wrong choice.

Haha! Today was a good tempo run of a testing enough course. I really enjoyed it. Of course I thought about dropping out. Sure that happens on every run!

I think I had a very similar day to you in Dublin. From the gun I struggled and by 10k my A and B goals were gone, c was gone by 10 miles. I worked my way through the alphabet until all that was left for me was the chance to be at the finish to see some of my club mates finish. I wouldnt read to much into this years Dublin Marathon as it was a very peculiar day and only about 1 in 10 were happy with their result and the attrition rate was unusually high. My own view is that there is always merit in finishing and it often takes some time maybe even years to appreciate the real value in your performance. Its very unlikely that you will look back in 10 years time and say "I regret finishing the 2014 Dublin marathon".

TFBubendorfer · 23-11-2014 4:27pm

ultrapercy wrote: »

My own view is that there is always merit in finishing and it often takes some time maybe even years to appreciate the real value in your performance. Its very unlikely that you will look back in 10 years time and say "I regret finishing the 2014 Dublin marathon".

Amen to that.

In my second marathon, almost 10 years ago, I started cramping at mile 12, which was just ridiculous. My target (a very modest sub-4 marathon) was gone, and the course almost passed the finish line at mile 15.

I still don't know why I didn't drop out there and then, it would have saved me 2+ hours of pain and misery. I was absolutely disgusted with myself afterwards, and to this day this is my slowest marathon by a very big margin.

However, and this became clear only much later, it was on that day that I realised that mentally I had the marathon sussed. No matter how crap I felt and how easy and straightforward dropping out would have been, I stubbornly kept going, for no apparent gain at the time.

Had I dropped out that day it would most likely have been my last ever marathon. Instead I went on from there, to a level that I could not even have imagined back then.

When to pull the plug.

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