Interested in Messianic Fellowship?

RandsomedChild · 26-05-2012 9:16pm

I apologize. I did not mean that renewed covenant was the only translation, but was one of the translations. Also, the covenant was changed , in that it replaced the "covering" blood with the "cleansing" blood. That is what changed.

The Law is "not grievous". The curse of the Law was. But Yeshua has sprinkled His blood on the Ark for the forgiveness of all who seek it. Oh wait...you do not think the Ark of the Testament is no longer valid, do ya?

If Yehovah is the same yesterday, today and forever, idk how you guys can rip those passages out of the Bible and throw them away. And He said He is not a man that He changes His mind....hmmm...sounds simple enough for a child to understand.

It is a learning thing. Discussion is good.

Yeshua is consistently against the doctrines of men. He is all about following the teachings of Moses. They were HIS words.

It is like this...you have a child. The child is 3 yrs old. You do not communicate or teach the child like it is 13. He would not understand. He would be overwhelmed and confused. You teach as the child is able to understand. But when he is 13 you should not communicate as if he is 3. This reduces his ability to learn and think for himself. It is crippling. It is much the same with Yehovah. He is a "tough-love" parent. He IS love, but sometimes love requires stepping back and letting your child fall, so he will learn. He is consistent, honest, full of integrity, faithful, just and true. If you need scriptural references for this statement, open the Bible at Genesis and read to Revelation. He gives us His guidelines and then deals with each of us individually.
By His Holy Spirit we receive strength, boldness and power to follow after the Messiah...as He says..."Be ye perfect, even as I am perfect." Or maybe all the times He said, "Your sins are forgiven you, go and SIN NO MORE." We must strive to live in righteousness. We may fail, but we must do our best. Yeshua would not tell us to do something that we cannot complete. He gives the strength. But, He also provides the remedy for our shortcomings. Living in lawlessness is what brings the curses on our land and cause the diseases and hardships we are facing.

The "New Advent" and it's origination : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm
Very interesting reading.

In Messiah's service,
Shalom..:)

philologos · 26-05-2012 9:38pm

I never said the Law was grievous? - I also never suggested that we rip up the Bible. Rather all I'm suggesting is that Christians read the Bible in the light of Christ. The reason why I don't advocate the death penalty is because Jesus paid the price for my sin, therefore how on earth could I demand such a price from others for their sin? The death penalty is a key part of the Torah law, but in the light of Christ, we see this differently. We need to read the Torah on the basis of what we understand from King Jesus.

Paul backs this up as well.

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 wrote:

Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away

As does Hebrews chapter 8.

The New Covenant simply unveils what God's ultimate purpose for mankind is. The fulfilment through King Jesus. Many people in the past longed for what was revealed to us as Christians. The Old Covenant is the backstory to something much greater.

I'm not presenting anything radical. This stuff was taught in the early church from the beginning. God is the same, the covenant relationship with us is different.

HamletOrHecuba · 27-05-2012 1:35am

http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/

Some genuinely interesting and enlightening articles here from a scholarly point of view.

RandsomedChild · 27-05-2012 5:30pm

Philo, I am sorry. I was not saying You in a literal sense and was not in the right mindset here. I do apologize. I was following a discussion with someone, in person, and let that feeling overflow into this. I should have just not written anything at that point.
Shalom!!

wolfsbane · 01-06-2012 7:17pm

RandsomedChild wrote: »

1. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant:
Maybe a word study on the words translated as "New Covenant" would help. The word translated as "New" means to renew. The portion of the covenant that was done away with was the lack of forgiveness under the animal blood. Yeshua's blood purchased our forgiveness by the sprinkling of it. This is the renewal. Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant, a set apart flesh and blood symbol of the covenant. The new covenant is a renewal of the old with the forgiveness via the precious blood of Messiah.
2. The New Covenant: YHWH made a covenant with Moses and the people of Israel. Israel kept "playing the harlot" and going after strange gods. YHWH was angry and divorced Israel. He broke the staff of the covenant. However, His own prophecies said that He would gather Israel to Himself as His bride. How can this be, if by His own law, He cannot remarry her...she has played the harlot. Yeshua HAD to be YHWH. He HAD to die, to satisfy the requirement of the Law. This is the only way YHWH could take His bride, in the end. The husband had to die, to free Israel for remarriage.

There is NO scripture to support eating of unclean meats. NONE.

No scripture supporting changing of His Holy Feast Days!

The Law is not done away....YHWH is the same today, yesterday and forever. Psalm 111: 7&8

Rev. 12:17 "...those keeping the commandments of YHWH and having the testimony of Yeshua Messiah."

Just to add to philologos' excellent response:

No, the New Covenant is not a re-hash of the Old Covenant. The New is entirely dependant on God's action - writing His Law on our minds (Jeremiah), giving a new heart (Ezekiel). He causes us to faithfully follow Him. The Old Covenant depended on man's response - 'do this and live'. It was perfectly holy, but man is not, so the Law (the Old Covenant) was unable to make us right with God. The New Covenant gives us a new heart/nature and cleanses us by Christ' blood. It cannot fail. Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

You said: There is NO scripture to support eating of unclean meats. NONE.
Try this:Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

You said: No scripture supporting changing of His Holy Feast Days!
Try this: Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

And this: Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

You said: The Law is not done away....YHWH is the same today, yesterday and forever. Psalm 111: 7&8

The eternal, moral Law is written on our hearts. But the Old Covenant - commonly called the Law - is abolished:
Hebrews 7:11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

You said: Rev. 12:17 "...those keeping the commandments of YHWH and having the testimony of Yeshua Messiah."

The commandments of YHWH no longer include the types and shadows of the Old Covenant - unclean foods, mixed-material garments, etc. Only the solely moral laws remain.

*****************************************************************
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Tinyark · 09-07-2012 5:39pm

keeping the thread alive!

if any Torah pursuant followers want to get in touch please feel free.

***********************

Many will say 'Lord, Lord' but I was say I do not know you, get away from me, you who practice Torahlessness.

SonOfAdam · 10-07-2012 10:53am

The part in red may have been written tongue in cheek but fairly much shows your position. You have exchanged freedom in Christ for the rules and regulations that were intended to point to Him. I've been in Egypt, I have no intention of returning

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 11:08am

so the Hebrews were released from the bondage of Egypt to be placed under the bondage of G-ds word?

an interesting perspective.

In the beginning was the word.. Is then Yeshua (jesus) bondage?

SonOfAdam · 10-07-2012 12:34pm

The hebrews were released unto the 'law of sin and death' with it's rules and regulations, codes and pratices, for only through the law was sin revealed (Rom 7) and pointed to a future saviour.

Since Christ we have been 'set free from the law of sin and death' (Rom 8:2), and are no longer bound to the law as we have died with Christ and died to the law through the body of Christ - This is freedom; living through the law is not. Either Christ is your righteousness or the law is - it can't be both.

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 12:50pm

gotacha

ok.. so we are no longer need to follow the law.. we can do what we want.

thanks for setting me straight.

so you are saying that half of the bible is a lie? Deut 4?

if you love me you will keep my commandments and I will send the spirit

oh, this is a good one.

Who so ever diminishes the least of the commandments will be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven and who ever does all the commandments will be the greatest. For I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it, for not one jot or tittle will pass from the law of G-d until heaven and earth pass way.

so.. if the law is gone

heaven and earth must have passed away...

Jesus either said:

Who so ever diminishes the least of the commandments will be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven and who ever does all the commandments will be the greatest. For I have not come to abolish the law but to fully teach it, for not one jot or tittle will pass from the law of G-d until heaven and earth pass way.

or

Who so ever diminishes the least of the commandments will be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven and who ever does all the commandments will be the greatest. For I have not come to abolish the law but to abolish it, for not one jot or tittle will pass from the law of G-d until heaven and earth pass way or dont.

as for Jesus.. He is the word of G-d. When you start saying the word of G-d is done away with, you do away with Yeshua.

you cannot add or take away from the word of G-d.

When you stop getting your teaching from a concordance and check the ord of G-d against itself if is obvious. Paul sacrificed animals, taught Torah and walked a Jewish walk. Jesus was Jewish and walked the walk His Father gave to Moses, Adam and Noah. The 'law' is not a law but a guide, Torah means instructions. Nothing in the Torah given to Moses was 'new' to him, Clean and unclean have been since before Adam. Do you even believe in the persons of Adam an Eve, the garden on Eden? Do you keep Christmas and Easter? Worship on a sunday? Eat unclean?

The Hebrews did not need a bible scholar to understand the Torah, Jesus did not need to leave a concordance and cross references to teach to the people in His ministry. Paul Taught Torah and then the salvation of Messiah, he followed up with letters when those in His remit made mistakes.

Its a shame you rely on teachings of other people to understand what the 'new testament' documents and ignore that whole word of G-d.

one final thought.. if the law is gone, why do the prophets and revelations say that when Messiah returns we shall follow it? Yeshua said 'hope the last days to not start on Shabbat' and when He returns He will still call Swine and Mice unclean to eat...

The lord our g-d is the same Yesterday as today and tomorrow. He does not change and neither, according to His own word, does His word.

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 12:53pm

if you have an hour to give to your faith.. and if you are genuinely interested in becoming closer to G-d. That is to say.. more interested in the ways of our heavenly father then the ways of mans traditions.. please watch this teaching.

http://119ministries.com/the-error-of-dispensationalism

SonOfAdam · 10-07-2012 1:17pm

You lost me somewhere between 'Gotcha' and 'When you stop getting your teaching from a concordance' :rolleyes:

Tinyark wrote:

Paul Taught Torah and then the salvation of Messiah, he followed up with letters when those in His remit made mistakes

like, for instance, to the Galatians ? You really should give that one a read.

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 1:24pm

yep just like them.. Jewish and new converts to the jewish sect of 'the way',believers who thought the words of Moses could bring by implementation 'salvation'.

its not the 'act' of doing but WHY you 'do' it.

im not at all surprised I lost you..

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 1:27pm

How ever did Jesus cope preaching the Gospel of God without pauls letters?! crikey.

http://119ministries.com/the-pauline-paradox---part-1

i know you wont.. but at least try to watch this.. at the very least to try and be-bunk it.

SonOfAdam · 10-07-2012 3:19pm

I've just discovered (from your blog) that I, along with the rest of the church have been reading Paul's letters all wrong - It is good to know that the truth is safe in someones hands

You (or your blog) make a distinction between what you call 'the church' and those who are torah observant - can you tell me here if you consider non-torah observing christians hidden with Christ in God (Col3:3) ? Or is that contradictory to you ? - It would be nice if you would nail your colours on that one.

I don't have access to vimeo at work so can't use link at the moment but I can say on dispensationalism I come down on the side of Law-Grace-Kingdom and I didn't get that from a concordance

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 4:05pm

Hi there

First of all the church we know today is not the 'church' of Pauls letters.

The very same word used in Greek for Church is also used in the greek version of the Torah. The 'assembly' at Sinai to the Pagans of the 1st and 2nd centuries was read as the 'church' of Israel. So, yes, I do think the modern view of a church is a million miles away from Pauls 'church' although he never used that word.

As for my colours.. I find that alot of peolpe I met who do not believe the law of G-d is meant for them today often site the letters of Paul.. rarely Jesus's words. People are always willing to take the easy option.. If the law doesnt count, and if the law tells us what sin is then we cannot sin. doesnt make sense.

for the record..
I 100% believe that you need to show you love G-d by walking in His Torah.

I believe G-d is one, not a trinity

I believe G-d is the same from the beginning to now and forever.

As for Col: well.. this is letter written to a bunch of pagans/gentiles, coming into the faith.. the previous chapter say 'dont do those pagan things, and dont worry if people slander you for changing your ways'

Paul only ever taught Torah. Torah is the guide that G-d sent to show how we love Him and how we sin. If we abandon Torah and believe we are covered by grace then we can do what we want.. when we want.. and how we want.

Do you believe that some of what is in the bible, the holy word of G-d, is a lie?

SonOfAdam · 10-07-2012 4:52pm

I appreciate your honesty - 'though your views are on the outside of orthodoxy. I hold that the bible is the word of God and as such is truth but as Philologus said it's the relationship with us that has changed not Him or His word. The cross is what makes the difference.

Grace is not doing what you want when you want but is the empowering presence of God enabling you to be who He created you to be - His spirit lives within and changes me to become like Christ - He lived the life I cannot live and died the death that was due to me, why ? Because He loves me - this is the gospel, this is truth - I may be unlovely but I am not unloved and His love changes me - so grace is not what you have described it is far more wonderful than that.

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 5:02pm

that is a beautiful response and I agree with nearly of of it.

the thing is.. i didnt start this post to 'convert' anyone. I simple wanted to put out the message of fellowship to those who believe as I do.

I can see where you are coming from, it is a perspective I looked from too once, and I know that no amount of explaining or verse quoting will change that view. Thats a G-d thing and although I know that is going to sound very smug I really do pray you at some point see what I mean by it.

I am always open to talk and discuss, I love it. Do me the favour of watching the link I sent on with an open mind and then if you want to debate with me, awesome. Im totally open to that, it stretches my 'word' muscle.

I would say that Yeshua walked this planet in His human form for around 3 years.. He had ample time to tell us not to do the law after His sacrifice but decided instead to preach and walk the law out. Peter was shocked when G-d told him to eat unclean and Paul went to great lenghts to prove He taught the law. There was not NT till 275 to speak of... thats 240 years of faith in yeshua with Torah law.. until 'man' changed things about.

Please watch the vid.. you will learn alot about church history at the very least.

philologos · 10-07-2012 7:21pm

Tinyark wrote: »

Hi there

First of all the church we know today is not the 'church' of Pauls letters.

Therefore we can ignore Paul's letters? And other New Testament Scripture that doesn't agree with your position?

Tinyark wrote: »

The very same word used in Greek for Church is also used in the greek version of the Torah. The 'assembly' at Sinai to the Pagans of the 1st and 2nd centuries was read as the 'church' of Israel. So, yes, I do think the modern view of a church is a million miles away from Pauls 'church' although he never used that word.

Jews translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek.

Tinyark wrote: »

As for my colours.. I find that alot of peolpe I met who do not believe the law of G-d is meant for them today often site the letters of Paul.. rarely Jesus's words. People are always willing to take the easy option.. If the law doesnt count, and if the law tells us what sin is then we cannot sin. doesnt make sense.

Except, it isn't the easy option. Jesus died on the cross for sin, so that we might walk anew according to God's standards under a new covenant agreement (made clear in Jeremiah 31:31-34).

The easy option is works based salvation.

Tinyark wrote: »

for the record..
I 100% believe that you need to show you love G-d by walking in His Torah.

Where does Jesus come into it?

Tinyark wrote: »

I believe G-d is one, not a trinity

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?

Tinyark wrote: »

I believe G-d is the same from the beginning to now and forever.

As do I. It was God's ultimate aim to fulfill the Mosaic covenant through Jesus Christ.

Tinyark wrote: »

As for Col: well.. this is letter written to a bunch of pagans/gentiles, coming into the faith.. the previous chapter say 'dont do those pagan things, and dont worry if people slander you for changing your ways'

Have you actually read it all and considered the logic of what it is saying to Christian communities?

Tinyark wrote: »

Paul only ever taught Torah. Torah is the guide that G-d sent to show how we love Him and how we sin. If we abandon Torah and believe we are covered by grace then we can do what we want.. when we want.. and how we want.

Take a read through Romans. That's what I'll say.

Tinyark wrote: »

Do you believe that some of what is in the bible, the holy word of G-d, is a lie?

No. It isn't. The Mosaic Covenant served a particular particular purpose for the people of Israel, now the New Covenant is for both Jews and Gentiles alike.

Benny_Cake · 10-07-2012 8:30pm

Tinyark wrote: »

I would say that Yeshua walked this planet in His human form for around 3 years.. He had ample time to tell us not to do the law after His sacrifice but decided instead to preach and walk the law out. Peter was shocked when G-d told him to eat unclean and Paul went to great lenghts to prove He taught the law. There was not NT till 275 to speak of... thats 240 years of faith in yeshua with Torah law.. until 'man' changed things about.

Please watch the vid.. you will learn alot about church history at the very least.

Are you saying that we are required to follow the entirety of the Mosaic law? It seems to me (and I apologise if I'm picking you up wrong) that you are rejecting a large chunk of the New Testament, saying that the law of Moses is mandatory, and that you are denying the Trinity? That sounds a lot closer to Judaism than Christianity - and that isn't meant to disrespect Jews in any way as there is a lot to admire about their faith.

emma_cos · 27-07-2015 11:26am

HI,

So is there actually a Messianic Fellowship in Dublin? I'd like to participate to your Bible studies.

Thanks!

uck51js9zml2yt · 04-08-2015 2:57pm

emma_cos wrote: »

HI,

So is there actually a Messianic Fellowship in Dublin? I'd like to participate to your Bible studies.

Thanks!

I would think that all true Christian Fellowships would believe in the Messiah and His return.

Moshe GV Perez · 20-10-2015 8:55pm

Well funny enough, I am a christian, I am spanish born, I live in Ireland, and I am a jew... hahaha!!!

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-10-2015 9:20pm

Moshe GV Perez wrote: »

Well funny enough, I am a christian, I am spanish born, I live in Ireland, and I am a jew... hahaha!!!

Jewish by birth and/or practice ?

welcome to boards:D

Moshe GV Perez · 20-10-2015 10:05pm

Marvin Refined Wile wrote: »

Jewish by birth and/or practice ?
welcome to boards:D

Jewish blood, from the tribe of Judah, perezites. Dad and mom both have Perez surname in the family history, and other Sephardic Spanish Jewish surnames in my family, but we were brought up as christians though. Pentecostal and Baptist. I accepted Yeshua ha Mashiakh as my Lord and Savior at the age of 11.

La Fenetre · 20-10-2015 11:16pm

Moshe GV Perez wrote: »

Jewish blood, from the tribe of Judah, perezites. Dad and mom both have Perez surname in the family history, and other Sephardic Spanish Jewish surnames in my family, but we were brought up as christians though. Pentecostal and Baptist. I accepted Yeshua ha Mashiakh as my Lord and Savior at the age of 11.

Shalom.

uck51js9zml2yt · 21-10-2015 12:46am

Moshe GV Perez wrote: »

Jewish blood, from the tribe of Judah, perezites. Dad and mom both have Perez surname in the family history, and other Sephardic Spanish Jewish surnames in my family, but we were brought up as christians though. Pentecostal and Baptist. I accepted Yeshua ha Mashiakh as my Lord and Savior at the age of 11.

You missed an interesting thread in AMA with an Irish women who converted to Orthodox Judaism and is living with her Jewish husband in Israel. It was an eye opener the disdain she had for non Jews!

Moshe GV Perez · 18-12-2015 3:37pm

Are you meeting this Shabbat?

servant · 17-09-2016 1:52pm

Hello, we are a group of 5 people following Yeshua our Creator and Saviour. and we are looking for others in our area Co. Leitrim. Pls get in touch if you would like to join us or if you already have a group you are part of, maybe we can join you.
We are of course keeping Shabbat holy and meet each friday and celebrate.

G-d bless you

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-09-2016 4:11pm

servant wrote: »

Hello, we are a group of 5 people following Yeshua our Creator and Saviour. and we are looking for others in our area Co. Leitrim. Pls get in touch if you would like to join us or if you already have a group you are part of, maybe we can join you.
We are of course keeping Shabbat holy and meet each friday and celebrate.

G-d bless you

Hi
A question for you.
Are you Jewish or Christian?

recedite · 24-09-2016 10:23am

Jesus was a Jew.

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-09-2016 10:59am

recedite wrote: »

Jesus was a Jew.

Very astute of you. Thanks for letting me know

recedite · 24-09-2016 11:05am

Well, if you wanted to pigeonhole the followers of the original teachings, then they would have to be a Christian sect within Judaism. Or expelled from within Judaism, whatever.

Absolam · 26-09-2016 1:02am

But if you wanted to know how someone would describe themselves, you might ask them.

Interested in Messianic Fellowship?

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