Begrudgery - the word and the Irish use thereof

doopa · 28-11-2012 5:43pm #1

I know there have been a few threads on this before - but the last I could find was over a year ago. I just read this article in the Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/1128/1224327201555.html
Title: Begrudgery hasn't worked. It's time to break our addiction to 'failure porn'

Now - I'm a newcomer to this fine Republic, but I can speak English, and continually fail to comprehend the exact usage of this word by Irish people. My understanding of the word is that it refers to reluctance or reticence, say I begrudge giving money to a person/organisation. See frequent usage of begrudging respect, i.e. to someone you don't necessarily (or perhaps conditionally) like but still respect.

Am I correct in understanding that the irish definition is just plain hating on someone? i.e. one online dictionary says it is an exclusively irish word for: resentment of any person who has achieved success or wealth. This seems to remove the qualification that the success or wealth is unearned and assume that the reasons for success are exclusively honest.

I suppose the problem with the conflict of the definitions is more clear when you try to replace the word with a synonym - like I think the journalist means to imply that people are envious of success (particularly of the undeserving kind). I also fail to see how the irish definition can be used as an adverb.

Point being - I hate the use of this word as I find articles that use it, lazy, thoughtless and filled with empty analogies and pointless tangents. I appreciate its utility as a filter for disregarding the thoughts of the writer, but am curious as to how this usage came about. So how about it boards - do we agree or disagree with the usage of the word.

PS: It's very obvious a lot the research for this article was compiled using wikipedia (not cited).

Azure_sky · 28-11-2012 5:44pm

Shryke · 28-11-2012 5:46pm

There's a breed of people that satisfy themselves with the trials and failures of others, and they loath others success, especially by hard work. They don't want to see that life is good and they'll never enjoy it themselves.

gobnaitolunacy · 28-11-2012 5:50pm

It's just called different things in different countries: Tall Poppy Syndrome (Aust.), Schadenfreude (Ger.) I'm sure there's other equivalents.

AnonoBoy · 28-11-2012 5:52pm

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

It's just called different things in different countries: Tall Poppy Syndrome (Aust.), Schadenfreude (Ger.) I'm sure there's other equivalents.

Boy those Germans have a word for everything, huh?

seamus · 28-11-2012 5:52pm

doopa wrote: »

My understanding of the word is that it refers to reluctance or reticence, say I begrudge giving money to a person/organisation. See frequent usage of begrudging respect, i.e. to someone you don't necessarily (or perhaps conditionally) like but still respect.

That's one meaning. The second meaning of the word is just plain old jealousy.

In an Irish context I think it's actually a little more complicated than that. It's more to do with perceived social classes and a bit of self-deprecation. Many Irish people see someone who has done well for themselves, which immediately evokes feelings of inadequacy and jealousy.
Some kind of weird switcharoo then occurs in the brain, where for some reason the person believes that it is the wealthier person who has made them feel bad and is "up their own arse" and "high and mighty". Note, this occurs even when they don't know the other person.

In some cases this can extend as far as to abuse anyone who might dare try to do something better than someone else. In the Irish psyche, when John tries to do well for himself he makes the rest of us look bad, so he should just get back in his box and stop getting ideas above his station.

TwoShedsJackson · 28-11-2012 5:56pm

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Boy those Germans have a word for everything, huh?

There's a classic Colemanballs quote from some football commentator back in the day, where he wondered 'if the Germans have a word for blitzkrieg in their own language'.

doopa · 28-11-2012 5:56pm

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

It's just called different things in different countries: Tall Poppy Syndrome (Aust.), Schadenfreude (Ger.) I'm sure there's other equivalents.

Tall Poppy syndrome refers to the first (ie OED) definition not to the definition I find in ireland.

Schadenfreude means to take please in the misfortunes of others.

Cork boy 55 · 28-11-2012 5:58pm

doopa wrote: »

I know there have been a few threads on this before - but the last I could find was over a year ago. I just read this article in the Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/1128/1224327201555.html
Title: Begrudgery hasn't worked. It's time to break our addiction to 'failure porn'

Now - I'm a newcomer to this fine Republic, but I can speak English, and continually fail to comprehend the exact usage of this word by Irish people. My understanding of the word is that it refers to reluctance or reticence, say I begrudge giving money to a person/organisation. See frequent usage of begrudging respect, i.e. to someone you don't necessarily (or perhaps conditionally) like but still respect.

Am I correct in understanding that the irish definition is just plain hating on someone? i.e. one online dictionary says it is an exclusively irish word for: resentment of any person who has achieved success or wealth. This seems to remove the qualification that the success or wealth is unearned and assume that the reasons for success are exclusively honest.

I suppose the problem with the conflict of the definitions is more clear when you try to replace the word with a synonym - like I think the journalist means to imply that people are envious of success (particularly of the undeserving kind). I also fail to see how the irish definition can be used as an adverb.

Point being - I hate the use of this word as I find articles that use it, lazy, thoughtless and filled with empty analogies and pointless tangents. I appreciate its utility as a filter for disregarding the thoughts of the writer, but am curious as to how this usage came about. So how about it boards - do we agree or disagree with the usage of the word.

PS: It's very obvious a lot the research for this article was compiled using wikipedia (not cited).

leave it out

LOL

wow look at you with your internet connection and your fancy newspaper link and all your big wordies and paragraphs (reticence WTF)
sure why don't ya feck off to england and get a job with the BBC

ballsymchugh · 28-11-2012 6:00pm

seamus wrote: »

That's one meaning. The second meaning of the word is just plain old jealousy.

In an Irish context I think it's actually a little more complicated than that. It's more to do with perceived social classes and a bit of self-deprecation. Many Irish people see someone who has done well for themselves, which immediately evokes feelings of inadequacy and jealousy.
Some kind of weird switcharoo then occurs in the brain, where for some reason the person believes that it is the wealthier person who has made them feel bad and is "up their own arse" and "high and mighty". Note, this occurs even when they don't know the other person.

In some cases this can extend as far as to abuse anyone who might dare try to do something better than someone else. In the Irish psyche, when John tries to do well for himself he makes the rest of us look bad, so he should just get back in his box and stop getting ideas above his station.

you have to factor in dislike being mistaken for begrudgery too.
saying you don't like bono does not make you a begrudger just because he is wealthy, as there are at least 2 other reasons not to like him!

doopa · 28-11-2012 6:00pm

seamus wrote: »

That's one meaning. The second meaning of the word is just plain old jealousy.

In an Irish context I think it's actually a little more complicated than that. It's more to do with perceived social classes and a bit of self-deprecation. Many Irish people see someone who has done well for themselves, which immediately evokes feelings of inadequacy and jealousy.
Some kind of weird switcharoo then occurs in the brain, where for some reason the person believes that it is the wealthier person who has made them feel bad and is "up their own arse" and "high and mighty". Note, this occurs even when they don't know the other person.

In some cases this can extend as far as to abuse anyone who might dare try to do something better than someone else. In the Irish psyche, when John tries to do well for himself he makes the rest of us look bad, so he should just get back in his box and stop getting ideas above his station.

I guess I haven't been here long enough to get infected with this kind of thinking. I think I'm confused about how to begrudge - I want to fit in and engage with this national pastime. Do I begrudge people who have well deserved success or those that have undeserved success, or just any of the successful.

i.e. could I just go around beating a few people in the office who are getting a bit uppity and say I'm just a begrudger, trying to fit in?

doopa · 28-11-2012 6:02pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

leave it out

LOL

wow look at you with your internet connection and your fancy newspaper link and all your big wordies and paragraphs (reticence WTF)
sure why don't ya feck off to england and get a job with the BBC

Are you begrudging me my education?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 28-11-2012 6:22pm

I think the definition has become skewed over time, it's such a common place word in Ireland but yet many people use it incorrectly. For example when a person justifiably criticises the performance of an Irish sports team or person 'begrudgery' is often used as an argument to shoot them down. Constructive criticism or criticism of any kind for that matter is not tolerated by a certain type of Irish sports fan, it's a very insecure way to be.

MadsL · 28-11-2012 6:25pm

"Isn't it well for ye"

Begrudgery - the word and the Irish use thereof

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