Steyr Upgrade

Donny5 · 17-08-2012 8:56pm

neilled wrote: »

The Aug optic was born of trying to increase the firing rate of a conscript army who wouldn't get huge amount of time with a weapon. It allowed faster target acqusition and the principle is that if you get the man sized target in the ring at 300m, you'll drop the enemy, rather than waiting to get the "perfect" shot with cross hairs etc. Its not designed to get precision shots, its designed to increase the rate of fire - particularly relevant if you were going to be engaging the massed hordes of the warsaw pact.

Although that probably is true, there's no reason you can't get precision shots inside the effective range of the SS109 round with an aperture inside a cross hair. I certainly prefer it to the SUSAT, anyway.

Midnight Oil · 17-08-2012 9:27pm

amurph0 wrote: »

There's no need for left handed steyrs. I'm left handed and I find it very comfortable firing from my right shoulder.

The issue is not being left handed. I am also a lefty. The issue is which is your master eye, 90 odd % of the population have their right eye as their master eye, I think more so than are right handed

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 17-08-2012 10:18pm

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Didn't the Minister say in the Dail a while back that funds had been allocated for a "rifle upgrade" though!?

You could be right but as recent as Monday, the word from the man that works with tenders says the civies are not allocating any money for a weapon upgrade.

The minister may step in and "over rule" the decision. But I doubt it.

It wasn't me! · 17-08-2012 11:52pm

Eye/hand dominance is a relatively complex issue. Take someone who's never shot before, who has an eye dominance issue, I'll probably get them to shoot right handed if I can. If they just cannot get used to it, then there's an issue and they shoot lefty. The issue arises with someone like me, who's shot lefty all his life, fires tens of thousands of rounds a year left-handed, who has a strongly dominant left eye (although am right handed!). Now, I can certainly shoot right handed, and have always shot pistols right handed, but it's certainly not as comfortable or natural for me, and there's a lifetime of muscle memory to overcome to fire rifles or shotguns right-handed, and I have to keep my left eye firmly closed.

jimmycrackcorm · 17-08-2012 11:55pm

Why would money be spent on upgrading guns that won't be fired? By all means, upgrade the few guns necessary for soldiers being sent on UN missions but otherwise it seems to be a feelgood exercise.

goldie fish · 18-08-2012 12:30am

benwavner wrote: »

You could be right but as recent as Monday, the word from the man that works with tenders says the civies are not allocating any money for a weapon upgrade.

The minister may step in and "over rule" the decision. But I doubt it.

The minister is a civvy, he has publicly announced the money is there. 6000 rifles to be modified.

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 18-08-2012 3:08pm

goldie fish wrote: »

The minister is a civvy, he has publicly announced the money is there. 6000 rifles to be modified.

Correct he is a civvy. I am talking about the civvies in DOD/DOF that are in control of the budget.

I hope we do get them modified, but as I have stated earlier in the thread, a guy in the know who deals with defence procurement has face to face told me that we are NOT getting a weapon upgrade, what happens next year or the year after who knows. but as of last Monday we are not getting one in the near future.

Thats that.

Of course he could be straight out lying for the craic, but he would have no reason to.

goldie fish · 19-08-2012 12:26am

benwavner wrote: »

Correct he is a civvy. I am talking about the civvies in DOD/DOF that are in control of the budget.

I hope we do get them modified, but as I have stated earlier in the thread, a guy in the know who deals with defence procurement has face to face told me that we are NOT getting a weapon upgrade, what happens next year or the year after who knows. but as of last Monday we are not getting one in the near future.

Thats that.

Of course he could be straight out lying for the craic, but he would have no reason to.

He's a Quartermaster you say? If so he doesn't deal with procurement. He'd want to be a captain or above.

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 19-08-2012 12:51am

goldie fish wrote: »

He's a Quartermaster you say? If so he doesn't deal with procurement. He'd want to be a captain or above.

He does deal with procurement, along with a Col and a Comdt. He is the SNCO in his office who does the donkey work, meetings, costings, spending forecasts. There are NCO's that work in the office and handle the mundane work.

Im not saying he makes the decisions or has any say in the matters, but he works in the office and is privy to all the information.

Im not looking for a "who knows better" argument with you, im just simply stating that:

"A guy I know, who works in procurement, has knowledge that there is no weapon upgrade in the near future".

I can also tell you that the Gallil and Colt M16 or variant were considered as a replacement before an upgrade was sought. Apparently a buy 1 get 1 free was offered on the M16.

KickstartHeart · 19-08-2012 2:49am

benwavner wrote: »

He does deal with procurement, along with a Col and a Comdt. He is the SNCO in his office who does the donkey work, meetings, costings, spending forecasts. There are NCO's that work in the office and handle the mundane work.

Im not saying he makes the decisions or has any say in the matters, but he works in the office and is privy to all the information.

Im not looking for a "who knows better" argument with you, im just simply stating that:

"A guy I know, who works in procurement, has knowledge that there is no weapon upgrade in the near future".

I can also tell you that the Gallil and Colt M16 or variant were considered as a replacement before an upgrade was sought. Apparently a buy 1 get 1 free was offered on the M16.

Hard to know whats going to happen in the next few years so. Do they need to replace the Steyr AUG A1? I'm not exactly a weapons expert but it seams to be a fine rifle. I'm looking from opinions from soldiers and reservists here. Is there anything that would suggest that the Steyr isn't up for the job?

neilled · 19-08-2012 3:15am

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Hard to know whats going to happen in the next few years so. Do they need to replace the Steyr AUG A1? I'm not exactly a weapons expert but it seams to be a fine rifle. I'm looking from opinions from soldiers and reservists here. Is there anything that would suggest that the Steyr isn't up for the job?

I don't see the need to replace the system in the immediate future. There's nothing out there in the immediate pipline that gives a quantum jump in performance that would justify replacing the entire weapons system. When you replace a rifle, you have to change racks, spares, retrain an army etc - its not just the unit cost per weapon.

An incremental upgrade as has been planned is probably most appropriate for the df's needs. Even the "cool" weapons drooled at by those who feverishly read industry publications have been having problems - m4's, m16's, g36's have all reported reliability issues in recent years - there is no perfect system and stoppages don't occur in MW or COD! Also, the F90 upgraded Austeyr (and its a very radical upgrade) manufactured in australia stands a realistic chance of replacing the FAMAS in french service. Their ability to produce a new rifle from scratch is gone, however the aussie arms factory was bought by Thales - a french company and they were showing it at eurosatory this year showing there's life in the platform yet.

The aug platform is robust, reliable and modular enough (with the proposed upgrades) to soldier on for another few decades as the DF's service rifle imho. Reservists don't need the upgrade - in its present configuration its almost perfect for what they do.

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 19-08-2012 7:26am

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Hard to know whats going to happen in the next few years so. Do they need to replace the Steyr AUG A1? I'm not exactly a weapons expert but it seams to be a fine rifle. I'm looking from opinions from soldiers and reservists here. Is there anything that would suggest that the Steyr isn't up for the job?

In my opinion, the Steyr is fine. I have had no problems with it other than the obvious stoppages with blank ammo. Lightweight, compact, great in and out of Mowags/Heli's. The sling is **** though, upgrade that!

One of the DF's considerations now with trying to source a replacement for the Steyr was............wait for it............ceremonial arms drill. What weapon would work and how would the AD have to change. Jesus H Christ like!

goldie fish · 19-08-2012 9:06am

benwavner wrote: »

He does deal with procurement, along with a Col and a Comdt. He is the SNCO in his office who does the donkey work, meetings, costings, spending forecasts. There are NCO's that work in the office and handle the mundane work.

Im not saying he makes the decisions or has any say in the matters, but he works in the office and is privy to all the information.

Im not looking for a "who knows better" argument with you, im just simply stating that:

"A guy I know, who works in procurement, has knowledge that there is no weapon upgrade in the near future".

I can also tell you that the Gallil and Colt M16 or variant were considered as a replacement before an upgrade was sought. Apparently a buy 1 get 1 free was offered on the M16.

Now you are getting confused with the initial procurement I'd say. The Galil and M16 were considered as FN replacements in 1986.

goldie fish · 19-08-2012 9:09am

benwavner wrote: »

In my opinion, the Steyr is fine. I have had no problems with it other than the obvious stoppages with blank ammo. Lightweight, compact, great in and out of Mowags/Heli's. The sling is **** though, upgrade that!

One of the DF's considerations now with trying to source a replacement for the Steyr was............wait for it............ceremonial arms drill. What weapon would work and how would the AD have to change. Jesus H Christ like!

There should be no stoppages with blank ammo if you set the gas properly.
The sling is one of the better ones in use, and was the only weapon available at the time with a "combat" sling, that allowed the weapon to be fired slung.

KickstartHeart · 19-08-2012 11:38am

Would soldiers and reservists be aloud to use a 3 point sling that they purchased on their own accord with their weapon on operations or exercises? You can get some that would easily be attached to the rear sling swivel on the Steyrs that the Defence Forces use.

neilled · 19-08-2012 12:02pm

goldie fish wrote: »

There should be no stoppages with blank ammo if you set the gas properly.
The sling is one of the better ones in use, and was the only weapon available at the time with a "combat" sling, that allowed the weapon to be fired slung.

Goldie, should and what actually happens are two different things. There are frequent stoppages with blank particularly on the more heavily used weapons that changing gas settings will not solve.

DipStick McSwindler · 19-08-2012 12:03pm

This post has been deleted.

Donny5 · 19-08-2012 12:13pm

goldie fish wrote: »

There should be no stoppages with blank ammo if you set the gas properly.

Have you ever fired a blank? Blanks are forever causing stoppages in any gas-operated weapon, because there's no bullet to clear carbon and the gas port aperture gets clogged in no time. There is nothing short of cleaning that you can do to stop it, no magical gas port setting that solves it. This isn't an issue with the AUG - all rifles foul like nobodies business with blanks.

goldie fish · 19-08-2012 12:40pm

Donny5 wrote: »

Have you ever fired a blank? Blanks are forever causing stoppages in any gas-operated weapon, because there's no bullet to clear carbon and the gas port aperture gets clogged in no time. There is nothing short of cleaning that you can do to stop it, no magical gas port setting that solves it. This isn't an issue with the AUG - all rifles foul like nobodies business with blanks.

I have fired thousands of blanks from FN, GPMG and Steyr. Never had a stoppage.
Clean your weapon properly before and after firing and it won't happen.

Donny5 · 19-08-2012 1:15pm

goldie fish wrote: »

Donny5 wrote: »

Have you ever fired a blank? Blanks are forever causing stoppages in any gas-operated weapon, because there's no bullet to clear carbon and the gas port aperture gets clogged in no time. There is nothing short of cleaning that you can do to stop it, no magical gas port setting that solves it. This isn't an issue with the AUG - all rifles foul like nobodies business with blanks.

I have fired thousands of blanks from FN, GPMG and Steyr. Never had a stoppage.
Clean your weapon properly before and after firing and it won't happen.

Bull. I'm beginning to think you're the biggest Walt of all, goldie.

goldie fish · 19-08-2012 1:55pm

Donny5 wrote: »

Bull. I'm beginning to think you're the biggest Walt of all, goldie.

I'm thinking the same of you.

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 19-08-2012 5:37pm

goldie fish wrote: »

Now you are getting confused with the initial procurement I'd say. The Galil and M16 were considered as FN replacements in 1986.

I am aware of that, it's quite possible that he ran 2 conversations into one.
I myself was only 5 in 1986.

goldie fish wrote: »

There should be no stoppages with blank ammo if you set the gas properly.
The sling is one of the better ones in use, and was the only weapon available at the time with a "combat" sling, that allowed the weapon to be fired slung.

LOL, no stoppages with blank ammo. When is the last time you used it? There have been some exercises that I have been on where (particularly with the GPMG) that it was not worth firing. At least 1 stoppage per belt and at least 5 per magazine. I have heard it mentioned that the quality of the blank ammo bought in the last few years was of a poor grade.

I hate the sling, I would ideally like to see it changes. Irrespective of how innovative it was in the 70's / 80's.

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Would soldiers and reservists be aloud to use a 3 point sling that they purchased on their own accord with their weapon on operations or exercises? You can get some that would easily be attached to the rear sling swivel on the Steyrs that the Defence Forces use.

First of all, reservists are soldiers. I have used a 3 point sling overseas and on exercises. Some PDF units dont mind you swapping small bits of kit like that as long as it is functional and doesnt particularly stand out. Some units insist on using issued kit only.

goldie fish wrote: »

I have fired thousands of blanks from FN, GPMG and Steyr. Never had a stoppage.
Clean your weapon properly before and after firing and it won't happen.

Come on Goldie, we all know how to care for a weapon but do you honestly think that we are going to believe that you are immune from stoppages directly relating to blank ammo? Some gas plugs that I have used would also contribute to stoppages, the state of them, but we all get stoppages. You could be a very rare exception though.

goldie fish · 19-08-2012 11:16pm

I have to be completely honest here, any stoppage I got with Blanks was from overfilled magazines. Maybe the quality of the current blanks are poorer than what I used,(last fired a blank in 2008) but I even remember firing the Black Plastic blanks without issue from the FN. And they were ****e.

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 19-08-2012 11:38pm

goldie fish wrote: »

I have to be completely honest here, any stoppage I got with Blanks was from overfilled magazines. Maybe the quality of the current blanks are poorer than what I used,(last fired a blank in 2008) but I even remember firing the Black Plastic blanks without issue from the FN. And they were ****e.

Thats a strange one alright.

Manic Moran · 20-08-2012 7:45pm

In fairness, the FN is a bad-ass weapon which will probably fire ammunition which was made in Olga's basement using melted pewter metal soldiers and propelled by powdered vodka without any stoppages.

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 20-08-2012 7:57pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

In fairness, the FN is a bad-ass weapon which will probably fire ammunition which was made in Olga's basement using melted pewter metal soldiers and propelled by powdered vodka without any stoppages.

I miss the FN

:(

I used it while in the FCA, some kick out of it. Feckin nearly crapped myself the first time I used it.

Midnight Oil · 20-08-2012 8:09pm

i spoke to 2 members of the board today. Still at the RFT stage but this upgrade is definitely going ahead

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 20-08-2012 8:14pm

Midnight Oil wrote: »

i spoke to 2 members of the board today. Still at the RFT stage but this upgrade is definitely going ahead

Thats grand so, any indication of timeframe?

Midnight Oil · 20-08-2012 8:15pm

yes

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 20-08-2012 8:18pm

Midnight Oil wrote: »

yes

LOL

Manic Moran · 20-08-2012 10:46pm

I miss the FN

Brought mine to the range yesterday.. :P

NTM

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 20-08-2012 10:58pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Brought mine to the range yesterday.. :P

NTM

You fecker!!!!.........I hate you :P

Teangalad · 21-08-2012 7:13pm

benwavner wrote: »

I miss the FN :(

I used it while in the FCA, some kick out of it. Feckin nearly crapped myself the first time I used it.

Same here, savage weapon, never got a chance to fire the steyr, had a go with every other small arm in the DF at the time, any one rmember the old Carl Gustav? and the BAP?? them were the Days..

Manic Moran · 21-08-2012 7:33pm

Oddly, I took my BAP to the range Sunday as well...

Teangalad · 21-08-2012 7:43pm

lucky you...

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 21-08-2012 8:58pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Oddly, I took my BAP to the range Sunday as well...

Manic, you are making me manic now! I love the BAP, Im much better with that than that new thing.

Maoltuile · 21-08-2012 10:09pm

benwavner wrote: »

I miss the FN :(

I used it while in the FCA, some kick out of it. Feckin nearly crapped myself the first time I used it.

I first fired it as a recruit with the .22 adaptor on sunny evenings in the gallery range in Castlebar Bks. Magic

I don't like the Steyr. Less robust that the FN. I miss the Bren Gun, but not the ancient .303 ammo it fired.

Managed to TOET but never fire the Gustaf for years. Finally ended up lashing out magazines of blanks on my Pots

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 21-08-2012 10:16pm

Maoltuile wrote: »

I first fired it as a recruit with the .22 adaptor on sunny evenings in the gallery range in Castlebar Bks. Magic I don't like the Steyr. Less robust that the FN. I miss the Bren Gun, but not the ancient .303 ammo it fired.

Managed to TOET but never fire the Gustaf for years. Finally ended up lashing out magazines of blanks on my Pots

Ah the Steyr is grand but I really felt like a soldier when I fired the FN, just the power our of it.

Loved the Bren too, I did a falling plates comp with the Bren on Kilpedder range back in 1998...great craic.

goldie fish · 21-08-2012 11:05pm

Maoltuile wrote: »

I first fired it as a recruit with the .22 adaptor on sunny evenings in the gallery range in Castlebar Bks. Magic I don't like the Steyr. Less robust that the FN. I miss the Bren Gun, but not the ancient .303 ammo it fired.

Managed to TOET but never fire the Gustaf for years. Finally ended up lashing out magazines of blanks on my Pots

Me too. Great fun seeing how quickly you can clear a magazine, as brass makes a neat arc through the air, just like in the movies.

Manic Moran · 22-08-2012 5:28pm

benwavner wrote: »

Ah the Steyr is grand

You'll never guess what else I brought to the range on Sunday...

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 22-08-2012 6:13pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

You'll never guess what else I brought to the range on Sunday...

Ah dont even think about saying a Bren Gun!......something mad like an AT4?

Stop teasing us!

Maoltuile · 22-08-2012 10:22pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

You'll never guess what else I brought to the range on Sunday...

Panhard AML90?

Midnight Oil · 22-08-2012 10:31pm

Doubt it ... we can't even get them to a range without being towed to the firing point

Manic Moran · 22-08-2012 10:39pm

Maoltuile wrote: »

Panhard AML90?

No... But the gun on this one works.

discus · 23-08-2012 10:45am

Does anyone else go week at the knees everytime Manic posts yet another awesome photo of his outrageously cool life?!??

Eh, I mean that's all, right, I suppose.

Manic Moran · 23-08-2012 10:24pm

That's only the life you guys know about.

What you probably don't know about yet is even cooler.

Praetorian Saighdiuir · 23-08-2012 10:30pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's only the life you guys know about.

What you probably don't know about yet is even cooler.

Hmmmmmm, I dont wana know!

Im jealous enough as it is.

goldie fish · 23-08-2012 10:49pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's only the life you guys know about.

What you probably don't know about yet is even cooler.

Ah your day job is a bit boring...

Manic Moran · 24-08-2012 5:32pm

Ah your day job is a bit boring...

It's OK. (Granted, sometimes my day job runs into night, as you can see from some of these photos)

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2489/inchurch.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4260/mcstand.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5366/colognew.jpg

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1269/aturret.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7066/acrowood.jpg

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8062/lovebeer.jpg

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6416/spacemarineo.jpg

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4905/tankcastle.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/782/beadsk.jpg

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5222/e3entr.jpg

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/381/miniview.jpg

OzCam · 28-08-2012 9:57pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/381/miniview.jpg

That view is very familiar. I think I was in that hotel, & have some very fond memories of Sydney. Gotta go back some day.

Steyr Upgrade

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