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Irish Rail - fine for not carrying my Annual Ticket while travelling

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  • 12-12-2012 11:13am
    #1
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭


    I received a €158 fine on saturday for not having a valid ticket on my way home, although I have an annual ticket I didnt have this with me on the day.

    after reading through bits of info on this I belived this was valid gorunds for appeal and just to send a copy of my ticket to the RPU. After doing this they rang me claiming my appeal was denied and I had to pay the fine.

    Is this legal?


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    #2
    LoonyLovegood
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 6,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    I received a €158 fine on saturday for not having a valid ticket on my way home, although I have an annual ticket I didnt have this with me on the day.

    after reading through bits of info on this I belived this was valid gorunds for appeal and just to send a copy of my ticket to the RPU. After doing this they rang me claiming my appeal was denied and I had to pay the fine.

    Is this legal?

    Yes, because you didn't have the ticket on you. You need a valid ticket on your person to travel, not one at home. You can't get on the train and say 'sure it's at home'. You've to pay the fine, I'm afraid.


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    #3
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    The reason for Irish rail issuing these fixed penalties are to protect loss of revenue. This is not loss of revenue as I have paid for this journey for 365 days of the year.

    Also on the internet valid grounds for appeal clearly states forgotten Annual Ticket?


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    #4
    LoonyLovegood
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 6,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    The reason for Irish rail issuing these fixed penalties are to protect loss of revenue. This is not loss of revenue as I have paid for this journey for 365 days of the year.

    Also on the internet valid grounds for appeal clearly states forgotten Annual Ticket?

    It is IÉ, though. You've appealed your fine, you've been informed that your appeal is denied. You may have paid for your journey for 365 days of the year, but unless you have that ticket on you at the time of travel, how is the ticket inspector to know this?


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    #5
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    Also on the internet valid grounds for appeal clearly states forgotten Annual Ticket?

    Where does it say that ?


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    #6
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    The inspector now knows this because I have supplied back up information that I was not evading the fare, i.e photocopy of My VALID ANNUAL TICKET


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    #7
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php


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    #8
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    Did you read this part
    Grounds for appeal are very limited, if you have been found with no ticket, or a ticket which is invalid for any reason you will be issued with a fixed penalty fine of €100 payable within 21 days. The only appeal which works is if you can state that you had no reasonable opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding the train.
    Possible valid grounds for appeal

    Forgot monthly/annual ticket (send photocopy with matching CIE id card within 14 days)


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    #9
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    No reasonable opportunity to buy a ticket is stating that I have not paid for the journey and therefore fare evaded, I have paid for this journey and have provided proof that I have paid for it.

    I think a judge will throw this out in court because of that and have read about several different cases of the same.

    Also if the fixed penalty is €100 then why was I fined €150? You should know this as you obviously work with Irish rail?


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    #10
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    The reason for Irish rail issuing these fixed penalties are to protect loss of revenue. This is not loss of revenue as I have paid for this journey for 365 days of the year.

    [/B]?

    i expect that IE will suspect that your ticket may be being used by someone else, in which case it is a loss o revenue.


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    #11
    kc56
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭kc56


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    No reasonable opportunity to buy a ticket is stating that I have not paid for the journey and therefore fare evaded, I have paid for this journey and have provided proof that I have paid for it.

    I think a judge will throw this out in court because of that and have read about several different cases of the same.

    Also if the fixed penalty is €100 then why was I fined €150? You should know this as you obviously work with Irish rail?

    150euro fine plus standard single fare for the journey completed.

    I've had the fine waved on appeal having left the annual ticket at home but that was 3 years ago. Rules may have changed.


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    #12
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    Hueston station now have ways of checking if your smart card was used on that particular day, mine certainly wasn't. If Irish Rail start fining the people that actually pay for their train day in day out, they are going to lose a lot of customers.


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    #13
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    100 euro plus the standard fare was €8.10, I believe that equates to €108.10, I was fines €158.10 ???


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    #14
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    No reasonable opportunity to buy a ticket is stating that I have not paid for the journey and therefore fare evaded, I have paid for this journey and have provided proof that I have paid for it.

    I think a judge will throw this out in court because of that and have read about several different cases of the same.

    Also if the fixed penalty is €100 then why was I fined €150? You should know this as you obviously work with Irish rail?

    First off I don’t work for Irish rail and never had.
    Second there is an offence of not having a valid ticket in your possession, you are guilty of this.


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    #15
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    And the fine is stated at €100, why have I been fined €150???


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    #16
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    No reasonable opportunity to buy a ticket is stating that I have not paid for the journey and therefore fare evaded, I have paid for this journey and have provided proof that I have paid for it.

    I think a judge will throw this out in court because of that and have read about several different cases of the same.

    Also if the fixed penalty is €100 then why was I fined €150? You should know this as you obviously work with Irish rail?

    A condition of the annual pass is to have it with you at all times whilst traveling. It doesn't mean you have paid for a given trip; it's an entitlement for you to travel using it so the onus is on you to have it at all times of travel. If you don't have your pass and relevant ID to hand when you do travel then you will need a ticket.


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    #17
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    And the fine is stated at €100, why have I been fined €150???

    I don’t know, as suggested it may be the fine plus the standard fare from the origin of the train. . Have you asked them? Maybe politely ask them if you pay the fine would they wave the 58.10 as you had payed for an annual ticket.


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    #18
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    I dont believe the fare from Dublin to Sallins/Newbridge willl equate to €58.10, the exact fare is €8.10.

    Can you pay these fines over installments because there is now way I can afford it before the 21 days are up?


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    #19
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,562 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Why don't you ask IE?


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    #20
    Tucker688
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Tucker688


    I Have but I have recieved no reply


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    #21
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,562 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well perhaps contact them directly - ring them up?


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    #22
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    I dont believe the fare from Dublin to Sallins/Newbridge willl equate to €58.10, the exact fare is €8.10.

    Can you pay these fines over installments because there is now way I can afford it before the 21 days are up?

    It is based on the maximum fare on the line plus standard fare; even if you traveled local they may reasonably assume you traveled from Tralee or Cork to Dublin.

    If you don't make arrangement to pay then it will go to court so it's in your interest to make contact with the RPU as soon as is possible to come to some arrangement. They do take credit cards if it's any help to you.


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    #23
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,562 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    From the customer charter:
    http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=115&n=156
    If you do not have a valid ticket for travel we will charge you a fixed penalty fare of up to €150. If your ticket requires an ID card, you must have that card with you when travelling. If you don't have the ID card with you, we will charge you a fixed penalty of up to €150.


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    #24
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    I'm surprised they won't cancel you fine. I've had this before with Irish Rail, but had to show my actual ticket, photocopy wasn't enough. Have you called them and spoken to someone? They usually are understanding in this situation( well they used to be! :))


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    #25
    Julius Seizure
    Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭Julius Seizure


    It's stuff like this that makes me like the regular checked on the Waterford line. For example he caught someone with a ticket to new bridge ex Dublin at cherryville going to Waterford and didn't give her a fine, just an extension ticket.

    By the way, I go between Thomastown which is unmanned and Kilkenny. I know I have to pay on the train, but if I want to use laser can I pay in Kilkenny?


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    #26
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    It's stuff like this that makes me like the regular checked on the Waterford line. For example he caught someone with a ticket to new bridge ex Dublin at cherryville going to Waterford and didn't give her a fine, just an extension ticket.

    By the way, I go between Thomastown which is unmanned and Kilkenny. I know I have to pay on the train, but if I want to use laser can I pay in Kilkenny?

    You can pay on the train or at your destination. If you have no cash on you then they can't do anything.


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    #27
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    They can fine you.


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    #28
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    Tucker688 wrote: »
    www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php
    That's not Irish Rail.


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    #29
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    They can fine you.

    They could but you would win in an appeal.. I don't think IE have a clear policy in place about no TMV or ticket office in stations. If you don't have cash on you and you turn up to the station no known you can't purchse a ticket. So will the staff member onboard fine you for something not make clear by IE and somthing which is not you fault.

    I havn't looked at there passenger charter to see if there is a peice about it.


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    #30
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    They could but you would win in an appeal.. I don't think IE have a clear policy in place about no TMV or ticket office in stations. If you don't have cash on you and you turn up to the station no known you can't purchse a ticket. So will the staff member onboard fine you for something not make clear by IE and somthing which is not you fault.

    I havn't looked at there passenger charter to see if there is a peice about it.

    Getting on board a train under the assumption that a mobile ticket conductor carries a card terminal on him to accept your Laser or Visa is pushing it. You don't walk into pubs or shops and get purchases for free if their terminals aren't in service; it's up to you to get cash if they can't take plastic so on board a train is no different :)


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    #31
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Rathdrum station has a notice up saying that there is no booking office or TVM. It also states where the nearest ATM is.


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