Public Transport compared to Switzerland

swissboy · 01-12-2012 10:15pm #1

I always hear the public transport (especially trains) are crap, and coming from Switzerland, I thought I should add my two cents. I have recently moved to Cork to study. An being in a different country I often travel around when I have time, using public transport.

First off, yes public transport is better in Switzerland due to various reasons such as denser population, traffic around cities, high subsidies (of the state train company, SBB, about 50% of costs are covered by state or cantons i.e county) yet comparatively high prices. And there are no buses competing with train routes. Below is a price comparison.

Dublin-Cork is 266 km long, takes 2:30 to 2:50 and costs from €30 (student return) to about €80 return if bought on the day. If you want cheaper, you can take the bus.

Lausanne-Zurich is about 250 km long, takes 2:10, but costs €114 (CHF 138) with no reduction for booking early, with the only reduction if you have a rail-card giving 50% reduction, €57 (CHF 69). There is no reduction for return tickets, one way costs half the price above. The only way to have that trip even cheaper is if you have a unlimited train use card, costing €2945 (CHF 3550) a year.

What annoys me most is the frequency of buses and trains, but that has a lot to do with the much higher population density (8 million people, about a third is mountains and not very populated) and possibly the Swiss people fondness of trains, an average Swiss person travels 2,422 km per year, not including the urban bus/tram system. The only longer distance buses in more rural areas which do not have trains (rural in Switzerland is still many times denser than rural in Ireland).

The public transport system today in Switzerland is a product spending billions over decades and denser population. Both which Ireland does not have.

But the Sandwiches on the train here are better than in Switzerland

james142 · 01-12-2012 10:24pm

Switzerland is huge compared to Ireland. We are years behind other countries in our public transport system. Some of it is just a joke when you compare it to others.

But then again, its doing better than what it would be doing if I was in charge of it so I guess I cant complain :rolleyes:

swissboy · 01-12-2012 11:08pm

Maybe we should start comparing public transport in Ireland with the one in Congo, I am sure that would make it look better

Size wise, Switzerland is 40 000 km2 while ROI is 70 000km2, so really we're small, we don't have any real rural areas like here.

I am sure you could do a better job than CIE :rolleyes: seems like they never thought about integrated ticketing yet Bus and train under one roof...

bmaxi · 02-12-2012 11:58am

CIE companies in Ireland also receive massive subsidies. While I'm not familiar with the set up in Switzerland, given the Swiss reputation for efficiency and Calvinist frugality, I would imagine most of the subsidy is spent on maintaining and improving infrastructure and service, while in Ireland it is spent on cossetting inefficient staff and management who operate with an overt contempt for their paying passengers, whether that be the State or the general public.

V_Moth · 02-12-2012 12:20pm

What needs to be taken into account when comparing the public transport systems of Switzerland and Ireland is the completely different topography. Southern and eastern Switzerland are set right in the heart of the Alps requiring an extensive network of tunnels, which I think partly explains the high cost of train travel there. See these tunnels recently completed/still being constructed:

-Gotthard Base Tunnel (57km / 9.8 billion CHF)
-Loetschberg Base Tunnel (34km / 4.3 billion CHF)
-Brenner Base Tunnel (55km / estimated at €6 billion)

swissboy · 02-12-2012 2:14pm

Yeah, topography matter, but I think one large difference is also the money spent over the years and a drive for greater public transport, allowing these projects to be worked, and it would not have happened if there were no motorways, as some money would have been spent there first as was the case before. These projects are financed though a state fund consisting of 0.1% VAT, part of the motor-fuel tax and a per km tax on heavy trucks. Fares are to try and cover operating costs, and they have been going up much faster then inflation.

I think there another reason is the large peak time travel with trains, each day about a million use the trains only, I do not know the numbers for buses and trams. So you need extra trains just for peak times. Its cheaper to travel here than in Switzerland, so I guess it either expensive and good, or cheap and not so good. And not having competing buses means you have less choice than here for most routes.

bmaxi · 02-12-2012 3:55pm

swissboy wrote: »

Yeah, topography matter, but I think one large difference is also the money spent over the years and a drive for greater public transport, allowing these projects to be worked, and it would not have happened if there were no motorways, as some money would have been spent there first as was the case before. These projects are financed though a state fund consisting of 0.1% VAT, part of the motor-fuel tax and a per km tax on heavy trucks. Fares are to try and cover operating costs, and they have been going up much faster then inflation.

I think there another reason is the large peak time travel with trains, each day about a million use the trains only, I do not know the numbers for buses and trams. So you need extra trains just for peak times. Its cheaper to travel here than in Switzerland, so I guess it either expensive and good, or cheap and not so good. And not having competing buses means you have less choice than here for most routes.

Cheaper is a relative term, is it cheaper when compared to disposable income?

swissboy · 02-12-2012 4:58pm

bmaxi wrote: »

Cheaper is a relative term, is it cheaper when compared to disposable income?

Good point, as a student the disposable income is low in both places. For the average person I cannot say, while the salary is higher, there are much higher living costs and health care is more expensive and not progressive. On the living costs indexes, we are on similar or even higher as Norway. But seeing that the recession seems to be passing Switzerland, it is most likely higher. Nevertheless, fares have risen faster than inflation for the last years, on average by 5.6% last year at about 0% inflation.

AlekSmart · 02-12-2012 7:41pm

bmaxi wrote: »

CIE companies in Ireland also receive massive subsidies. While I'm not familiar with the set up in Switzerland, given the Swiss reputation for efficiency and Calvinist frugality, I would imagine most of the subsidy is spent on maintaining and improving infrastructure and service, while in Ireland it is spent on cossetting inefficient staff and management who operate with an overt contempt for their paying passengers, whether that be the State or the general public.

bmaxi wrote: »

Cheaper is a relative term, is it cheaper when compared to disposable income?

I'd suggest familiarity is quite a relative term also,as is imagination ?

bmaxi · 02-12-2012 10:22pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'd suggest familiarity is quite a relative term also,as is imagination ?

If you have a rebuttal lets hear it and not hide behind innuendo, particularly ill informed innuendo.

swissboy · 02-12-2012 11:21pm

Just about everything can be seen as relative or absolute. Just because the Swiss have a higher income does not justify that the same products are 50% more expensive than in Germany. I do not think that the Swiss are that efficient, they (SBB) are also accused of being inefficient, rising fares while reducing service quality. They do not even have reserved seats for most trains and first class is no more than a bit more leg room, no service personal. There was a large uproar when they stopped selling tickets on the trains, as there are no gates like here, but you have a two conductors walking the train and they notice who came on the train from the last stop and check. In regional trains, they only do spot checks.

If we compare to Japan, where the trains are on average only in the tens of second late, and 30 seconds is considered late, it makes the 2 min until its considered late in Switzerland look bad, just as the 10 min look bad when compared to Switzerland, but better when compared to the 15 min in Italy.

Just for the recored, the subsidy for the years 2007-2011 was €4.87 billion (CHF 5.88 billion).

bk · 03-12-2012 11:25am

One thing to consider is the difference in topology. While the construction costs might be paid from other sources, the topology and climate of Switzerland would certainly also have a massive effect on operating costs.

All that freezing and thawing would have a massive negative effect on tracks and track beds. Then there is operations to clear snow from tracks. Avalanches and landslides to deal with and repair. Massive scary bridges and tunnels that require constant maintenance.

I'd also imagine that the maintenance of engines and carriages is much higher in Switzerland then here. The engines must work much harder with much higher gradients to pull up and down and freezing temperatures to deal with and heat carriages.

In comparison Irelands topology is very much simpler. Our problem is our very distributed and rural population. But our topology is ideal for rail. Very flat with mild winters and summers. The odd bog and flooding is the only operational issue Irish Rail have to deal with (and frankly they can't even get that right).

Now that isn't to say that the Swiss operator isn't inefficient and that money isn't wasted. For instance use only one ticket checker per train rather then two or non at all and just roving ticket inspectors with very high fines. I'm sure there are lots of efficiencies to be had.

bmaxi · 03-12-2012 12:38pm

bk wrote: »

One thing to consider is the difference in topology. While the construction costs might be paid from other sources, the topology and climate of Switzerland would certainly also have a massive effect on operating costs.

All that freezing and thawing would have a massive negative effect on tracks and track beds. Then there is operations to clear snow from tracks. Avalanches and landslides to deal with and repair. Massive scary bridges and tunnels that require constant maintenance.

I'd also imagine that the maintenance of engines and carriages is much higher in Switzerland then here. The engines must work much harder with much higher gradients to pull up and down and freezing temperatures to deal with and heat carriages.

In comparison Irelands topology is very much simpler. Our problem is our very distributed and rural population. But our topology is ideal for rail. Very flat with mild winters and summers. The odd bog and flooding is the only operational issue Irish Rail have to deal with (and frankly they can't even get that right).

Now that isn't to say that the Swiss operator isn't inefficient and that money isn't wasted. For instance use only one ticket checker per train rather then two or non at all and just roving ticket inspectors with very high fines. I'm sure there are lots of efficiencies to be had.

I'm sure there are efficiencies that could be made in Swiss, German, even Japanese railways. That doesn't make IR or any of the other CIE companies efficient by comparison, plus the fact that a lot of these efficiencies are already supposed to have been made. Do they need, for instance two, sometimes three guys hanging around the ticket barriers in Connolly all day scratching themselves?
Efficiency, however, is not just confined to monetary terms, efficiency is also about how you carry out the job you are paid for and this is where CIE staff and management, and to one degree or another, the Public Service at large, fall down badly.

swissboy · 03-12-2012 4:42pm

bk wrote: »

One thing to consider is the difference in topology. While the construction costs might be paid from other sources, the topology and climate of Switzerland would certainly also have a massive effect on operating costs.

All that freezing and thawing would have a massive negative effect on tracks and track beds. Then there is operations to clear snow from tracks. Avalanches and landslides to deal with and repair. Massive scary bridges and tunnels that require constant maintenance.

I'd also imagine that the maintenance of engines and carriages is much higher in Switzerland then here. The engines must work much harder with much higher gradients to pull up and down and freezing temperatures to deal with and heat carriages.

In comparison Irelands topology is very much simpler. Our problem is our very distributed and rural population. But our topology is ideal for rail. Very flat with mild winters and summers. The odd bog and flooding is the only operational issue Irish Rail have to deal with (and frankly they can't even get that right).

Now that isn't to say that the Swiss operator isn't inefficient and that money isn't wasted. For instance use only one ticket checker per train rather then two or non at all and just roving ticket inspectors with very high fines. I'm sure there are lots of efficiencies to be had.

All trains are electric, which have a lower wear and tear and operating costs than diesel. There is a historic reason for all trains being electric, during both world wars it was difficult to get coal but there was a surplus of electricity so they electrified all the track early on, and even added immersion heaters to the some of the steam engines they had.

Nowadays, the conductors are also a sort of police on the trains, as there is more and more thief and pickpocketing on trains, thought they also have a proper "train" police in addition.

I agree, it can always be made more efficient, but sometimes service suffers under it. For example, getting rid of the food trolley and having only vending machines would be more efficient way to provide food to passengers, but at a lower service quality.

KenGriffin · 03-12-2012 6:21pm

I spend quite a bit of my time in Switzerland due to personal reasons and I have travelled frequently on the SBB network and also on the RBS network [local trains around the Bern region]. I have even travelled on the Postauto [buses run by Swiss Post].

I am not certain that the price comparisons are terribly useful in this case because the cost of living is so high in Switzerland. For example, a small bottle of Coke can cost up to €3.50 depending on where you buy it. The impression I get is that things balance themselves out because average wages are higher in Switzerland.

I should also add that I have always been a believer in you get what you pay for. From that perspective, I have never found SBB terribly expensive - the trains are clean, quiet, they run on time and they travel at high speed. There's also plenty of evidence of considerable investment in track and services.

SBB also seem quite efficient from an operations perspective - I was once on a train to Zurich which was stopped in the middle of nowhere due to a signalling failure. This normally takes several hours to resolve in Ireland but the fault was fixed and we were moving again in less than 30 minutes.

I'm not certain that a comparison with Iarnrod Eireann is terribly instructive though. As I said earlier, you get what you pay for and the Irish government don't put that much into Iarnrod Eireann in terms of funding, especially since Leo Varadkar has become transport minister.

The other aspect is that there is considerable political interference in the operational side of Iarnrod Eireann, which has manifested itself in the opening of the WRC and the Alan Kelly Express. One of the problems with Ireland is that infrastructure is often sought not out of need but due to some form of collective entitlement.

I remember travelling on the WRC launch train and being mobbed at every stop by locals cheering the fact that they now had a railway again. It was impossible to move on some of the platforms. Each stop was a political circus as almost endless stream of councillors spoke about how they had delivered for their community. I have to admit I felt sorry for Dick Fearn and his team on that day: they had delivered a project on time and below budget but got no credit for it. The issues with specification aren't really relevant as these were set for Iarnrod Eireann by the politicians.

If all those people actually used the service they had campaigned for, the WRC would be a massive success. But it is clear that few of them had any intention of doing so - they just wanted to satisfy some collective need to possess something expensive for symbolic reasons.

ArmaniJeanss · 03-12-2012 9:53pm

FWIW, last weeks episode of BBC's Great Continental Rail Journeys was set in Switzerland, with Portillo travelling from Basle to Lucerne via Baden & Zurich, including a trip through the Alps on the frankly awesome looking Glacier Express.
Was train porn at its best , also had some stuff on the history and attitude to trains, and some segments inside the control room at Zurich, apparently the busiest station in Europe.
Well worth checking out in your usual illegal download places.

swissboy · 03-12-2012 10:32pm

KenGriffin wrote: »

I spend quite a bit of my time in Switzerland due to personal reasons and I have travelled frequently on the SBB network and also on the RBS network [local trains around the Bern region]. I have even travelled on the Postauto [buses run by Swiss Post].

I am not certain that the price comparisons are terribly useful in this case because the cost of living is so high in Switzerland. For example, a small bottle of Coke can cost up to €3.50 depending on where you buy it. The impression I get is that things balance themselves out because average wages are higher in Switzerland.

I should also add that I have always been a believer in you get what you pay for. From that perspective, I have never found SBB terribly expensive - the trains are clean, quiet, they run on time and they travel at high speed. There's also plenty of evidence of considerable investment in track and services.

SBB also seem quite efficient from an operations perspective - I was once on a train to Zurich which was stopped in the middle of nowhere due to a signalling failure. This normally takes several hours to resolve in Ireland but the fault was fixed and we were moving again in less than 30 minutes.

I'm not certain that a comparison with Iarnrod Eireann is terribly instructive though. As I said earlier, you get what you pay for and the Irish government don't put that much into Iarnrod Eireann in terms of funding, especially since Leo Varadkar has become transport minister.

The other aspect is that there is considerable political interference in the operational side of Iarnrod Eireann, which has manifested itself in the opening of the WRC and the Alan Kelly Express. One of the problems with Ireland is that infrastructure is often sought not out of need but due to some form of collective entitlement.

I remember travelling on the WRC launch train and being mobbed at every stop by locals cheering the fact that they now had a railway again. It was impossible to move on some of the platforms. Each stop was a political circus as almost endless stream of councillors spoke about how they had delivered for their community. I have to admit I felt sorry for Dick Fearn and his team on that day: they had delivered a project on time and below budget but got no credit for it. The issues with specification aren't really relevant as these were set for Iarnrod Eireann by the politicians.

If all those people actually used the service they had campaigned for, the WRC would be a massive success. But it is clear that few of them had any intention of doing so - they just wanted to satisfy some collective need to possess something expensive for symbolic reasons.

I also used the WRC once, and thought came to realize why so few take it when it is so slow, at least it was one of the 22k instead of an old clunker. But you get political interference everywhere. I used to travel between Germany and Switzerland, and part of the route was a 144km long high speed track linking Cologne and Frankfurt. There however are two smaller stops that some politicians wanted, and which slows that part of the journey down to 1 hour compared to 45 min (only one stop used by a train).

Could you please elaborate with what you mean with "Alan Kelly Express"

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

FWIW, last weeks episode of BBC's Great Continental Rail Journeys was set in Switzerland, with Portillo travelling from Basle to Lucerne via Baden & Zurich, including a trip through the Alps on the frankly awesome looking Glacier Express.
Was train porn at its best , also had some stuff on the history and attitude to trains, and some segments inside the control room at Zurich, apparently the busiest station in Europe.
Well worth checking out in your usual illegal download places.

Yeah, Zurich is very busy train station and there are many scenic routes used as them as both tourist attractions rural lines and hate to get you jealousness but I went one some of those lines (my grandfather worked at SBB and they used to get free train travel as part of the pension)

.

I heard that some West Cork Lines were also very scenic, but they decided to get rid of it all...

bk · 03-12-2012 11:37pm

swissboy wrote: »

Yeah, Zurich is very busy train station and there are many scenic routes used as them as both tourist attractions rural lines and hate to get you jealousness but I went one some of those lines (my grandfather worked at SBB and they used to get free train travel as part of the pension) .

The most spectacular train journey I've ever been on is the Oslo to Bergen in Norway. Breath taking. And then their is the Flam ranch line down to Flam. But if anyone ends up there, I recommend to cycle down to Flam rather then take the train. Looks like an incredible and exciting ride down!!

parsi · 04-12-2012 6:57pm

bk wrote: »

The most spectacular train journey I've ever been on is the Oslo to Bergen in Norway. Breath taking. And then their is the Flam ranch line down to Flam. But if anyone ends up there, I recommend to cycle down to Flam rather then take the train. Looks like an incredible and exciting ride down!!

We were in Norway shorty after the Lillehammer Olympics and had planned to go on that route. When I got to book it was exceptionally busy so it was an out/back on the same day with less than an hour in Bergen. Took a while to persuade herself..

Beautiful journey and a bit expensive.

Aard · 04-12-2012 8:39pm

bk wrote: »

The most spectacular train journey I've ever been on is the Oslo to Bergen in Norway. Breath taking.)

I've been on it too - fantastic! Also, while I'm at it, I can say that the Norwegian train company (NBS? NSB? Can't remember right now) are a pleasure to deal with. We booked tickets for the incorrect date, completely our fault of course. After buying new tickets, the guy in the train station told us to post the wrong tickets to their head office. We did so and got a full refund within a couple of weeks!

AlekSmart · 04-12-2012 10:45pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

FWIW, last weeks episode of BBC's Great Continental Rail Journeys was set in Switzerland, with Portillo travelling from Basle to Lucerne via Baden & Zurich, including a trip through the Alps on the frankly awesome looking Glacier Express.
Was train porn at its best , also had some stuff on the history and attitude to trains, and some segments inside the control room at Zurich, apparently the busiest station in Europe.
Well worth checking out in your usual illegal download places.

As an aside,It's worth pointing out that Easons on O Connell St have both volumes of Bradshaws Guide available downstairs in the Transport section.

After that,all that remains is a trip to Louis Copeland for a nice Mint Lemon coloured sports jacket to go with a pair of powder blue Chino's and perhaps a salmon pink shirt..;)

swissboy · 05-12-2012 5:05pm

Aard wrote: »

I've been on it too - fantastic! Also, while I'm at it, I can say that the Norwegian train company (NBS? NSB? Can't remember right now) are a pleasure to deal with. We booked tickets for the incorrect date, completely our fault of course. After buying new tickets, the guy in the train station told us to post the wrong tickets to their head office. We did so and got a full refund within a couple of weeks!

How is it in Ireland, when you book online is it for the whole day, or only the train which you booked? And how is it with tickets bought in the station. In Switzerland the ticket is valid for the trip in any time on that day when bought online or in the station unless it is a sale (which are uncommon). e.g. you can take the 8:30 or 9:00 train without penalty, even if they are different types (InterCity or Regional)

Sound like NSB have some good service. An interesting thing in Germany was that they would give you a official notice/letter if the train is very late, so if you come late to a meeting due to the delay you have evidence. I don't think there is such a thing is Switzerland, but then again trains do not come 2 hours late due to some snow.

ArmaniJeanss · 05-12-2012 7:05pm

swissboy wrote: »

How is it in Ireland, when you book online is it for the whole day, or only the train which you booked? And how is it with tickets bought in the station. In Switzerland the ticket is valid for the trip in any time on that day when bought online or in the station unless it is a sale (which are uncommon). e.g. you can take the 8:30 or 9:00 train without penalty, even if they are different types (InterCity or Regional)

In Ireland it's just for the train you booked.
In fairness to Ireland I believe thats the way it is in most countries, I think having so much flexibility makes Switzerland the exception in this case.

swissboy · 06-12-2012 7:26pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In Ireland it's just for the train you booked.
In fairness to Ireland I believe thats the way it is in most countries, I think having so much flexibility makes Switzerland the exception in this case.

Good to know. That is most certainly true, it is unusual. There is talk about changing it, because providing for rush hour expensive and they do not reduce frequency (only train length) to keep clock-face scheduling all day long. They have built the whole infrastructure around clock-face scheduling, and it is generally every 30 or 15 min, or 1 hour for less used tracks tracks.

Just to show the density of the train and non-urban bus network
_1680x1050.spooler.download.jpg

Cookie_Monster · 07-12-2012 2:12am

swissboy wrote: »

Yeah, Zurich is very busy train station

I'd almost say that's an understatement. 2,900 trains a day :eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich_Hauptbahnhof

This is cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8J0Vj46jg

swissboy · 11-12-2012 12:30pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'd almost say that's an understatement. 2,900 trains a day :eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich_Hauptbahnhof

This is cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8J0Vj46jg

You could also say it is the pacemaker of the train system, as a delay there will ripple to most parts of Switzerland.

Thought after having been in Japan on the and having a high speed train to the same destination every 3 min during rush hours and having subway lines in Tokyo that carry the population of Switzerland in a day, makes the Zürich train station look small :rolleyes:

lockon... · 15-12-2012 6:24pm

Why is this even a thread? The comparison is ridiculous. Switzerland is a land locked country with a large demand for pan european rail freight across its borders. A donkey could provide a decent passenger service with that advantage.

Public Transport compared to Switzerland

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