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Sh*t the No Campaigners Say

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Comments

  • #102
    Lawliet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Lawliet


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    I did a tiny bit of canvassing, and didn't find that age made much difference. Most of the No voters I spoke to were middle-aged men; there was one elderly couple mourning that Ireland was changing too fast.

    Many old people I spoke to said they intended to vote Yes, including one lady hooped over a walking frame who said she'd have to get help to vote as she was waiting for a cataract operation and couldn't see the ballot paper clearly.

    So perhaps a little less of the light-hearted ageism.
    You're the one jumping to the conclusion that they were put there by no voters.
    I just said that miraculous medals were found and I'm assuming it was an auld one cause every old woman I've met seems to have an endless supply of them.


  • #103
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    Lawliet wrote: »
    every old woman I've met seems to have an endless supply of them.

    We meet different old women.


  • #104
    Lawliet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Lawliet


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    We meet different old women.
    That goes without saying, there's more than a few of them around.

    But regardless, its pretty sad that religious symbols and the like are automatically assumed to be for the no side, when plenty of people of faith are members/supports of the LGBT community.


  • #105
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    It wasn't so much any one thing, but I found Paddy Manning incredibly hard to stomach. Why he was so keen to throw the rest of us under the bus I will never know. I've tried to understand his logic, but can't. Whatever about the rest of the No campaigners, it made me furious every time I heard him on TV. But on the other hand his obnoxious manner and carry on probably helped the Yes side no end :D.


  • #106
    peking97
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭peking97


    Gosh I'm surprised to hear you say that! No point in going back over the arguments now but I thought he explained his position very clearly.


  • #107
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    "I have several gay friends who I love but *something homophobic*"


  • #108
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Vojera wrote: »
    For the first time in a vote of any kind (referendum or election) I saw a lot of posts on social media explaining to people how to not spoil their votes (essentially telling them not to write anything except for their X in one box). Do you think this contributed to the low spoil rate? Or do you think people just really wanted to be sure that their vote counted on this issue?

    I don't really know. I was amazed when I heard that some younger folks were convinced that having liked a certain page on FB, their vote would automatically be counted and they didn't have to bother with that polling station mullarkey.

    It's really straightforward to me - just an X in a box and even a tick or any other clear indication will be accepted. My 11-year-old worked out which paper was which, so I'm not sure how any adult could get confused.


  • #109
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    RainyDay wrote: »
    My 11-year-old worked out which paper was which, so I'm not sure how any adult could get confused.
    A lot of adults have literacy difficulties that often discourage them from going to the polling station in the first place. This is especially true of older people who did not finish (or even go to) secondary school, typically from working class backgrounds.

    Other people have dyslexia and at least one person has told me that the way the ballot was laid out, particularly with the Irish and English mixed together, was very confusing for them. The pressure of the day, and fear of standing too long at the booth didn't help. They ended up putting a mark over the box where it said "Yes / Tá" rather than on the empty box next to it, and was subsequently worried that their vote was spoiled as a result. And I fear it was.


  • #110
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Aard wrote: »
    A lot of adults have literacy difficulties that often discourage them from going to the polling station in the first place. This is especially true of older people who did not finish (or even go to) secondary school, typically from working class backgrounds.

    Other people have dyslexia and at least one person has told me that the way the ballot was laid out, particularly with the Irish and English mixed together, was very confusing for them. The pressure of the day, and fear of standing too long at the booth didn't help.
    Fair points.
    Aard wrote: »
    They ended up putting a mark over the box where it said "Yes / Tá" rather than on the empty box next to it, and was subsequently worried that their vote was spoiled as a result. And I fear it was.
    I saw a LOT of these votes when tallying. There was no suggestion from the front-line counters that there was any query over these ballot papers. While the ultimate decision is down to the returning officer, I doubt if these papers will ever be referred to the RO - the counter just put them in the Yes pile.


  • #111
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Good to know, thanks for clearing that up. I felt a little bit heart-broken when I heard that they made that mistake.

    I hope that in future the ballots take on a more simple design. Maybe by having separate Irish and English versions? I'm sure there's a way to design them in order to make sure that people with literacy difficulties, dyslexia, or general learning difficulties can take part without fear of making a mistake -- or worse, fear of making a fool of themselves (which many people with literacy difficulties worry about on a daily basis :( ).


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  • #112
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    Nothing to do with the Irish and English. Just put "Yes" on the left of the positive box and "Tá" on the right, and "No" on the left of the negative box and "Níl" on the right.


  • #113
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Aard wrote: »

    I hope that in future the ballots take on a more simple design. Maybe by having separate Irish and English versions? I'm sure there's a way to design them in order to make sure that people with literacy difficulties, dyslexia, or general learning difficulties can take part without fear of making a mistake -- or worse, fear of making a fool of themselves (which many people with literacy difficulties worry about on a daily basis :( ).

    Something like this maybe?

    http://www.eachandother.com/2015/05/designing-a-better-voting-experience-for-everyone/

    They're on the right track, though legislation would need to be changed to go down this road.


  • #114
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    captainspeed wrote: »
    It wasn't so much any one thing, but I found Paddy Manning incredibly hard to stomach. Why he was so keen to throw the rest of us under the bus I will never know. I've tried to understand his logic, but can't. Whatever about the rest of the No campaigners, it made me furious every time I heard him on TV. But on the other hand his obnoxious manner and carry on probably helped the Yes side no end :D.

    He's just such a horrible person. He calls women who had abortions murderesses!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #115
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I think whatever No campaign group got him on board made a huge mistake in doing so. He's entirely unappealing. To both sides! His behaviour and manner are completely obnoxious.


  • #116
    flowerbattle
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭flowerbattle


    Was told quite seriously by a man in Athlone "Well sure if we give them this then they'll be looking for gay divorces and gay abortions, it's all 'take take take' with these people". I tuned out for a bit in order to stifle laughter and when I tuned in again he somehow made his to claiming that Boko Haram will take over Ireland in a few years after a Yes vote.


  • #117
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    That reminded me of a campaigner I met; "If gay marriage is legalised, next it'll be masochistic relationships, like yer man up in Dublin!" - he meant Graham Dwyer...


  • #118
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    flowerbattle wrote: »
    Was told quite seriously by a man in Athlone "Well sure if we give them this then they'll be looking for gay divorces and gay abortions, it's all 'take take take' with these people". I tuned out for a bit in order to stifle laughter and when I tuned in again he somehow made his to claiming that Boko Haram will take over Ireland in a few years after a Yes vote.

    I heard the same thing almost word for word. I tried to explain that since divorce is already legal in Ireland that there would be no 'taking', it's already there and that gay couples are right at the bottom of the list of people who might avail of abortion (taking into account some with a trans partner may be reproductively capable - I chose not to point that tidbit out for fear of their mind imploding). Something resembling a scoff mixed with a sneer was the response.


  • #119
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Aard wrote: »
    A lot of adults have literacy difficulties that often discourage them from going to the polling station in the first place. This is especially true of older people who did not finish (or even go to) secondary school, typically from working class backgrounds.

    Other people have dyslexia and at least one person has told me that the way the ballot was laid out, particularly with the Irish and English mixed together, was very confusing for them. The pressure of the day, and fear of standing too long at the booth didn't help. They ended up putting a mark over the box where it said "Yes / Tá" rather than on the empty box next to it, and was subsequently worried that their vote was spoiled as a result. And I fear it was.

    A lot of state documents here in Ireland are extremely poor at that actually. They're too verbose and there's more concern about legally pedantic language and bilingualism than anything else.

    A surprisingly high number of people have literacy difficulties and huge numbers have issues with interpreting dense or confusing text either because of visual issues or sometimes cognitive issues around dyslexia etc

    It's actually an issue that should be covered by disability rights legislation as it prevents access to public services.

    I came across a few situations too where various services only respond to phone calls and not emails which is an absolute nightmare for deaf people or those who may not speak English fluently enough to interact over the phone.

    It's something that the equality authority needs to deal with.

    I thought the ballot papers were ridiculously verbose in both this and previous referenda.

    I'd print them Irish on one side and English on the other and have a clear brief title "Marriage Equality" "Minimum Age for Presidential Candidates"

    We're not all legal eagles with an ability to parse dense text in our sleep!

    The bilingual thing is fine but mixing languages will cause serious difficulties for dyslexics and should be avoided at all costs. It's adding problems without doing anything to help Irish speakers status! Just print Irish on one side and English on the other. Neither is getting special status that way. It's just whatever side you pick up


  • #120
    Vojera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Vojera


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    The bilingual thing is fine but mixing languages will cause serious difficulties for dyslexics and should be avoided at all costs. It's adding problems without doing anything to help Irish speakers status!
    I have no literacy issues but every time I vote and see the English and Irish mixed on the paper my brain panics and goes "I can't read this! I can't read this!" I can't imagine what a nightmare it is for people who have difficulties.


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  • #121
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,970 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I feel a shitstorm's a-brewin' in Politics Café, as Stormfront has leaked again.


  • #122
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Vojera wrote: »
    I have no literacy issues but every time I vote and see the English and Irish mixed on the paper my brain panics and goes "I can't read this! I can't read this!" I can't imagine what a nightmare it is for people who have difficulties.

    I agree 100%

    I write all day as part of my job and spend my time editing and tweaking stuff and I had the same reaction.

    It looked like an excerpt from a complicated very old legal document. Even the layout was horrible.

    You're also often in poor lighting at a tiny table and even if there's no queue you feel you shouldn't spend too long thinking about it.

    I found myself reading it a few times to make sure I wasn't missing something!!


  • #123
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Vojera wrote: »
    I have no literacy issues but every time I vote and see the English and Irish mixed on the paper my brain panics and goes "I can't read this! I can't read this!" I can't imagine what a nightmare it is for people who have difficulties.

    Even as a fluent Irish speaker, I was having difficulty teasing apart the alternating lines of Irish and English.

    Irish on the right of the ballot, English on the left, and the boxes in the middle -- this would simplify things a *lot*.


  • #124
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Vojera wrote: »
    I have no literacy issues but every time I vote and see the English and Irish mixed on the paper my brain panics and goes "I can't read this! I can't read this!" I can't imagine what a nightmare it is for people who have difficulties.

    My 11-year-old, who wouldn't be top of the class academically, was able to work out which paper was which in 5 seconds.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    A lot of state documents here in Ireland are extremely poor at that actually. They're too verbose and there's more concern about legally pedantic language and bilingualism than anything else.

    A surprisingly high number of people have literacy difficulties and huge numbers have issues with interpreting dense or confusing text either because of visual issues or sometimes cognitive issues around dyslexia etc
    Fully agree.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    It's actually an issue that should be covered by disability rights legislation as it prevents access to public services.
    It is covered - Section 28 (3) of the Disability Act 2005
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0014/sec0028.html

    It's just ignored by most public bodies most of the time.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I came across a few situations too where various services only respond to phone calls and not emails which is an absolute nightmare for deaf people or those who may not speak English fluently enough to interact over the phone.

    It's something that the equality authority needs to deal with.
    Yes, that's an issue too, and in breach of current Equal Status legislation too.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I thought the ballot papers were ridiculously verbose in both this and previous referenda.

    I'd print them Irish on one side and English on the other and have a clear brief title "Marriage Equality" "Minimum Age for Presidential Candidates"

    We're not all legal eagles with an ability to parse dense text in our sleep!
    These guys are on the right track.

    http://www.eachandother.com/2015/05/designing-a-better-voting-experience-for-everyone/

    Unfortunately, legislation would need to be changed to permit such a change.


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