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Drag Queens... pop... etc...

  • 07-01-2011 3:13pm
    #1
    Goodshape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭


    Another one of my silly rants coming up... I just can't seem to grasp "gay culture" at all.

    Honest question, not trying to be smart I just simply don't understand it -- how did a man dressing up as a woman and miming to ****e pop music for an audience of men who are attracted to men ever become a staple of "gay culture" ?

    I'm a man, I'm attracted to men... so lets go and watch a man dressed up as a woman singing female pop songs? What?

    Is it supposed to be ironic? Are we laughing at the stupidity of it all or actually supposed to be admiring how "fabulous" "she" looks? Neither is actually something I'd be bothered doing for hours on any night out.


    I've been told to loosen up and not be so closed minded... enjoy the cheesy pop and drag queens, these people do more for my rights than I ever would (that one particularly vexed me but that's another thread).... really though? Is pop and drag an inescapable part of "gay culture"? That really makes me sad.

    I'd consider myself open minded enough with regards music... love everything from classical, old school rock and roll, electronica, post-rock, bit of hiphop, metal, ska, reggae.. I'll give pretty much anything a listen so long as I can get some sense of integrity and passion from the artist. But I have a hard time seeing pop (most pop, anyway) as anything other than product. The people who make it are largely inconsequential. The people who sell it are manipulative c**ts who know exactly what they're doing. And the fact that all this has become so ingrained in this culture of a minority group that I'm supposed to be a part of just pisses me off. I feel sorry for the seemingly majority of gays for being led on by this targeted marketing (as I see it) and their subsequent inability to appreciate and feel real music by real artists. And sicked that I'm associated and have to put up with this crap by proxy.


    Or am I just no fun and I should "come to terms with my sexuality" and learn to love the pop?

    [/rant]


    tl;dr -- I was in a "gay club" last night. FFFFFUUUUUUUUUU...


Comments

  • #2
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    On the music note I can't agree because I love absolutely everything from Dubstep to Classical to Metal to those Cheesy Eighties to Electro....

    But as for Drag Queens? Well, I really don't get it either. I guess you could say that they are very "out there" and visible. They're very "we're queer and get used to it". But I don't get it either.

    Also, I was going to ask some of the Trans members here recently whether Drag Queens offend them? Surely they are making a mockery of actual transgender people?

    EDIT: Just remembered that on a very drunk night I once did drag at a house party. It was just a bit of fun. There was no eh, "reasoning" behind it.
    Goodshape wrote: »
    tl;dr -- I was in a "gay club" last night. FFFFFUUUUUUUUUU...

    That was me yesterday morning. I hate gay clubs so much. Gay-Friendly is the way to go.


  • #3
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Splitting this question into its component parts -

    1. Do I, as a trans person, find drag queens / kings offensive?

    Yes and no.

    No, I don't find drag queens / kings offensive, because they are expressing who they are, and I completely respect that.

    Having said that, there is an unfortunate phenomenon out there where trans gets equated with drag, even in the LGBT community. I was once in Pantibar on a Thursday night and, during the interval in the Panti show, an American guy came up to me and started chatting to me. One of his first questions to me was - "when are you on stage?" :mad:

    So long as the drag artist doesn't portray themselves as being representative of the trans community (they are representative of only a part of the trans community), then any equating of trans and drag isn't really the fault of the drag artist, but rather of the sterotyped views of trans people that are out there. Having said that, I believe there is a degree of responsibility on drag artists to combat those stereotypes whenever possible and appropriate.

    I will say this, though - one of the artists in the Panti show is billed as "Ireland's best transsexual". That really really grates on me. Shame on Rory. I think that helps reinforce stereotypes, and I'd expect better than that from a leader in the community.

    2. What do I make of drag shows in general?

    They are "interesting". At this stage, I'm utterly tired of hearing the same thing over and over again in the Panti show. I don't "get" a lot of the shows, but they can make a nice backdrop to a good night out.

    3. The whole gay culture and drag phenomenon

    Drag is considered by many (myself included) to be an aspect of transgender, so drag belongs in the LGBT scene as much as I do.

    I completely understand why gay men wouldn't "get" the whole thing of drag. However - trust me - there are plenty of gay men who love a feminine man.

    In the transgender community, there are men who are euphemistically referred to as "admirers" - they are men who are specifically attracted to transgender (CD, TV and TS alike) women, and many of them are actually gay men.

    4. The music

    I don't know my music, but to be honest the music in most drag shows I've been to so far has been poor. I think the music thing is more about the carry on of the artists on the stage than it is about the actual music.


  • #4
    Endymion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    Surely drag queens are as much a part of the trans (transgendered) community as transsexuals? And as such are just as representative of it as transsexuals? Also, can't drag queens be transsexual or even genderqueer? I've met at least one who would fix the "transsexual" label. I don't think there's anything about being a drag queen which excludes you from being transsexual, genderqueer, transvestite or even straight:eek:.


  • #5
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Endymion wrote: »
    Surely drag queens are as much a part of the trans (transgendered) community as transsexuals?
    Yes.
    And as such are just as representative of it as transsexuals?
    I cannot represent drag queens any more than a drag queen can represent me.

    There are fundamental differences between drag queens, crossdressers, transvestites and transsexuals. I don't like being mistaken for a drag queen any more than Rory would like to be asked when he is having the operation to remove his bits.
    Also, can't drag queens be transsexual or even genderqueer? I've met at least one who would fix the "transsexual" label.
    Yes.

    My point about being uncomfortable about the "Ireland's number one transsexual" remark is that it uses "transsexual" as a marketing thing.


  • #6
    Azure_sky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Azure_sky


    Drag Queens are very repetitive. "Ohh suits you Sir!" Funny for a few minutes but the one dimensional humour soon wears off. Like Deirdre, I find it annoying that people mistake Drag Queens with transsexuals, though I find it even more annoying when people mistake fetishtic transvestites with transsexuals. Having said that, I've realised that Drag Queens and transvestites are not the ones to blame, it's the fault of people who are too lazy to understand the difference. But it is pretty sad that Miss Panti referred to himself (I say him as I'm assuming he identifies as a gay male?) as a transsexual.


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  • #7
    Endymion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    Yes.
    I cannot represent drag queens any more than a drag queen can represent me.

    There are fundamental differences between drag queens, crossdressers, transvestites and transsexuals. I don't like being mistaken for a drag queen any more than Rory would like to be asked when he is having the operation to remove his bits.
    Yes.

    My point about being uncomfortable about the "Ireland's number one transsexual" remark is that it uses "transsexual" as a marketing thing.

    I see. Fair comments.


  • #8
    Goodshape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    No offense but I was hoping this thread wouldn't get sidetracked into a "how drag queens relate to trans*" discussion.


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    On the music note I can't agree because I love absolutely everything from Dubstep to Classical to Metal to those Cheesy Eighties to Electro....
    Yeah? Maybe I should loosen up slightly re: the music. I'm just really passionate about good music and hate to see it treated, advertised, bought and sold just like any other product. Also the repetitive nature of most modern pop is really grating.

    That Beyonce 'Ring on it' song? It's fun every once in a blue moon, sure, but it's the same one or two lines to the same mind numbing keyboard beats repeated over and over and over and over. Give me a break ffs.

    Also I'd make a distinction between cheesy eighties pop ballads and modern pop. Nice thing about the 80's is that it's 20 - 30 years ago! We can cherry-pick the best bits and totally forget about the rest.

    But as for Drag Queens? Well, I really don't get it either. I guess you could say that they are very "out there" and visible. They're very "we're queer and get used to it". But I don't get it either.
    That'd be one of my theories alright. You've been called 'sissy' so much you basically snap and say "oh, you think that's sissy?! Check THIS out!". Commendable enough but in 2011 I'd be inclined to just say get over yourselves, tbh.

    EDIT: Just remembered that on a very drunk night I once did drag at a house party. It was just a bit of fun. There was no eh, "reasoning" behind it.
    I've got nothing against fun :) or men dressing up as women for whatever reason... just wonder why it's so inescapable on the 'scene'.


  • #9
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Goodshape wrote: »
    I've got nothing against fun :) or men dressing up as women for whatever reason... just wonder why it's so inescapable on the 'scene'.

    Because we live in Ireland and our scene is very monocultural - Its heavily dominated by stereotypes of cheesy pop and drag Go to the large cities like New York, London etc and the scenes there are much much more diverse

    I wonder will the new club that Panti is involved be any different?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #10
    Goodshape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Because we live in Ireland and our scene is very monocultural - Its heavily dominated by stereotypes of cheesy pop and drag Go to the large cities like New York, London etc and the scenes there are much much more diverse
    Yeah? Must check that out sometime. Only out-of-Ireland gay pub or club I've been to was in Prague and yeah, that was pretty much the same as it is here.
    I wonder will the new club that Panti is involved be any different?
    It's Panti, so I can only doubt it.

    Fwiw though, even if i can't stand the drag queen song-miming, PantiBar is still probably best of the bunch. Rory seems to do a good job of being a sort of community figure-head and at the best of times it's a comparatively decent and relaxed place to be.


  • #11
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    I've never got the appeal of drag queens either. I'm all for hearing cheesy pop on a night out, but I don't want to hear it being either mimed or tunelessly warbled by a man in a dress. And the "comedy" aspect of it seems very repetitive. If a drag queen wants to make political commentary or clever social satire, I'd be all for it. However, it just seems to be a lot of "dick" jokes.

    I don't go ever go "on the scene" anyway so I'm not subjected to it. But it most get very old and irritating for people on the scene who don't get the appeal of it.


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  • #12
    Azure_sky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Azure_sky


    What's the story with this new Panti club just out of curiosity? Is it just like the Panti bar but more of a night club sort of thing?


  • #13
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    have a look at GCN online november or december issue and it gives you more info about Pantis new club - I think Rory knows quite well that people want something different to cheesy pop and drag and may surprise you goodshape

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #14
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Well I have to agree with you on the music - it's always been pretty woeful pop. Always the same songs week-on-week but yet the enthusiastic shriekings (yes, they were actual shrieks) that some of these songs got made me despair that they'd ever change it.

    I'm not sure if you've ever tried "Q & A"? It was designed to give an alternative. It's rarely on now though and I do think they've diluted the "alternative" angle and gone much closer to pop in recent years.
    Years ago we had Sharpshooters in Eamon Doran's. Ah to be in a gay club and dance to NIN's "Head Like a Hole" or Pearl Jam's "Alive". Alas, it didn't last...

    I'll also agree that I don't drag acts remotely entertaining, for many of the reasons stated above. I'll put this, and the music, to something I just will never really get and one of the reasons why I'm not bothered with the gay scene in general.


  • #15
    Goodshape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Went to Q&A once or twice but pretty sure I must have missed it's good days. Particularly the second time I went, I think it was Veda (a drag queen) on stage playing what sounded very much like pop music to me. Or, at best, the most very obvious and safe indy.


  • #16
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    The thing is, there have been alternative nights, but they either changed or stopped. that to me says that the people who are willing to go out and spend money are the ones who want cheese. if people who love hard rock etc want a gay bar that caters to that, then you have to support it. We talk a lot about 'community' but fact is, if bars and events don't make money, then why would people keep going with them? Rory has been mentioned a lot, but he's under no obligation to be the head of the community. He's a businessman and an entertainer. Seems like classic supply and demand to me.

    I think that's also the reason there's no lesbian bar in Dublin, and that the lesbian scene has a very small number of dedicated nights. Most lesbians, once in a relationship, don't go out. From my experience of gay guys in relationships, that isn't the case. If the community wants it, but isn't prepared to support it by their presence or economically, then it won't last.

    hell, I'd love a lesbian bar where I could go and hang out, with folk-rock playing in the background, comic books lying around for perusal and a giant xbox hooked up for playing. (AKA my sitting-room with an admission price :p) Not going to happen, and if I'm honest if one were to pop up I'd probably go once and not have the money again.


  • #17
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    I think there's more straight people in the George watching the queens than there is gay people at times. So I don't understand why straight clubs don't put on drag shows, I'd say they would draw a huge crowd.

    As for why drag queens are associated with gay clubs...it's probably to do with gay history. Men that liked to dress as women were accepted in gay bars and felt safe from abuse, so it was a natural progression that drag queens would perform almost exclusively in gay bars.

    AFAIK, Panti, the drag queen owner of Panti Bar, has a tent at Electric Picnic.


  • #18
    lionchild
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭lionchild


    Here's my theory;

    This is just a general observation, an opinion....NOT A FACT!!!

    Being very general about this, and I stress the generalisation, gay men often tend to be quite reserved as children, don't play sports, feel they don't fit in etc. This leads to spending more time being introvert and doing activities that fit into that profile,ie, watching tv,computers, reading etc. They may have more female friends or perhaps find it easier to relate to women. They become intrigued by the mediated image of women. Tv shows, films, magazines etc.

    When these men are older and have accepted the fact they are gay, they feel the need to be expressive and almost attention seeking in their actions. For example, a gay man who actually doesn't have any vocal ability, can still gain attention for dressing as a woman and miming to a song. It's not attention for an actual talent but attention all the same. The fact that they are miming is almost like a safe barrier for the individual. All eyes are on me but nothing can really go wrong. This links back to the feeling of not fitting in as a kid. They satisfy the mediated idea of what it is to be famous from what they have seen for so long in the media.

    This is just one man's thought.

    But, yeah, I have to agree with the original post. Drag sucks...pointless for me. I'd have more fun throwing a 50 off O' Connell bridge. At least I'd get to see if float away in the wind. it would be mildly entertaining. Paying into a gaybar to see mime artists...while sipping over priced drinks...not for this boyo!:pac:


  • #19
    Quentinkrisp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 285 ✭✭Quentinkrisp


    Good post OP - i have a fairly ambivalent approach to drag, im kind of 'meh' about the whole thing, i find it briefly funny but annoying as well sometimes: i wouldnt view anyone who's into drag as being any less of a person, its just not my thing. I myself am far more reserved, im not big into drama, i rarely raise my voice and i like my rock and techno just as much as i like my pop (some of it!madonna, pet shop boys,daft punk & scissor sisters)

    of course, IMO, drag isnt central to being gay whatsoever, the whole point about being gay is having a sexual attraction to someone of the same gender as your own!! I'm not into dressing up or spending hours doing my hair before a night out, i just put on whatever fits, is clean and is at hand!:) i dont see my sexuality as a commodity or a reason to behave differently to the way i had before, to a certain extent. the 2 key phrases to remember in this discussion are 'each to their own' and 'whatever floats your boat' :);)

    p.s: i think brenda power's an absolute moron for judging the entire gay community in ireland based on the actions of drag queens: saying that the gay community dont deserve equal treatment because some of them like to dress up in drag is the exact same as saying that the irish people dont deserve legal rights just because a few of them wear green hats at paddy's day :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • #20
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Drag shows should be something people do in the privacy of their own house parties. I've done it once or twice. It was fun, silly, and probably something I would've done even if I were straight.


    Shows in bars I just don't get. OK, I've had an "interesting" chat or two with Mary Harness, who is utterly fantastic, but the rest of them leave me feeling dry. They promote themselves as entertainers (I think), but they're not good actors, not good comedians, not good dancers, not good presenters, and I'm pretty sure the whole thing isn't an ironic joke.


    They perpetuate stereotypes, make gay bars intolerable, alienate "straight acting" gays, create legions of befringed hangers-on, bring down the collective IQ, reduce being gay to a kitsch show, don't offer value for money, make middle-aged men think that being a bitchy queen is to be strived for, and so on.


    I don't like them.


  • #21
    Quentinkrisp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 285 ✭✭Quentinkrisp


    Aard wrote: »
    Drag shows should be something people do in the privacy of their own house parties. I've done it once or twice. It was fun, silly, and probably something I would've done even if I were straight.


    Shows in bars I just don't get. OK, I've had an "interesting" chat or two with Mary Harness, who is utterly fantastic, but the rest of them leave me feeling dry. They promote themselves as entertainers (I think), but they're not good actors, not good comedians, not good dancers, not good presenters, and I'm pretty sure the whole thing isn't an ironic joke.


    They perpetuate stereotypes, make gay bars intolerable, alienate "straight acting" gays, create legions of befringed hangers-on, bring down the collective IQ, reduce being gay to a kitsch show, don't offer value for money, make middle-aged men think that being a bitchy queen is to be strived for, and so on.


    I don't like them.

    fair enough, i've a couple of gay mates who think the same way


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  • #22
    A lemon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭A lemon


    It's nice to see that other people feel that way. Tbh, I find the scene in general pretty shallow and banal. The music, the insipid drag shows etc. Yes, I understand that people have fun with these aspects of the gay scene, but it's a bit sad that this is essentially the face of the community. I guess the same goes for gay pride. If would be nice if the political rallies had even half that turnout. I've read a few articles by older folks lamenting the erosion of "gay culture" in modern society. Personally, I can't wait for the gays to be swallowed up by the black hole that is the mainstream. I recall reading a quote somewhere, that read something like "the ultimate goal of gay culture is to eliminate the need for its existence". Sounds good, I don't know if I can handle more Ke$ha and Kylie...


  • #23
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Aard wrote: »
    Drag shows should be something people do in the privacy of their own house parties. I've done it once or twice. It was fun, silly, and probably something I would've done even if I were straight.


    Shows in bars I just don't get. OK, I've had an "interesting" chat or two with Mary Harness, who is utterly fantastic, but the rest of them leave me feeling dry. They promote themselves as entertainers (I think), but they're not good actors, not good comedians, not good dancers, not good presenters, and I'm pretty sure the whole thing isn't an ironic joke.


    They perpetuate stereotypes, make gay bars intolerable, alienate "straight acting" gays, create legions of befringed hangers-on, bring down the collective IQ, reduce being gay to a kitsch show, don't offer value for money, make middle-aged men think that being a bitchy queen is to be strived for, and so on.


    I don't like them.

    Ouch...bitchy. Have ya tried doing drag yourself? ;)

    The alienating straight acting gays is rubbish. They just have issues with themselves.


  • #24
    Goodshape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Ouch...bitchy. Have ya tried doing drag yourself? ;)

    The alienating straight acting gays is rubbish. They just have issues with themselves.

    I thought he kinda hit the nail on the head tbh. As a 'straight acting' gay guy how can I not feel a bit alienated when the entire community* seems to revolve around drag queens, over-emphasised sexuality and pop music that I suspect even my little sisters grew out of by the time they hit adolescence.

    But, of course, I've got "issues" with myself for not embracing it all and jumping on board the big pink bandwagon? Right. Now I definitely feel like a welcome part of the community.



    (*maybe entire community is taking it a bit far but unless my issue is that I'm looking in the wrong places, it certainly seems to be the visible majority).


  • #25
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Ouch...bitchy. Have ya tried doing drag yourself? ;)
    I don't need to dress up as a woman to be a cunt.


  • #26
    hypersquirrel
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭hypersquirrel


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Ouch...bitchy. Have ya tried doing drag yourself? ;)

    The alienating straight acting gays is rubbish. They just have issues with themselves.

    It's not nonsense at all. If it wasn't for all that stuff I probably would have come out far sooner.


  • #27
    alexjk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 226 ✭✭alexjk


    I think it depends on the performer. Of the times that I've seen a show in Pantibar, I've found it mostly entertaining whereas I've never had that from the drag shows in the George. I'm mostly willing them off the stage so I can dance, but they must have some audience if they've lasted as long as they have.


  • #28
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    hypersquirrel wrote: »
    It's not nonsense at all. If it wasn't for all that stuff I probably would have come out far sooner.

    You're blaming drag queens for the delay in you coming out???

    Perhaps intolerance had something to do with it.


  • #29
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    hypersquirrel wrote: »
    It's not nonsense at all. If it wasn't for all that stuff I probably would have come out far sooner.

    And this is what I mean by issues and even when it's pointed out, they get defensive.


  • #30
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Goodshape wrote: »
    I thought he kinda hit the nail on the head tbh. As a 'straight acting' gay guy how can I not feel a bit alienated when the entire community* seems to revolve around drag queens, over-emphasised sexuality and pop music that I suspect even my little sisters grew out of by the time they hit adolescence.

    But, of course, I've got "issues" with myself for not embracing it all and jumping on board the big pink bandwagon? Right. Now I definitely feel like a welcome part of the community.



    (*maybe entire community is taking it a bit far but unless my issue is that I'm looking in the wrong places, it certainly seems to be the visible majority).

    If you go in late to the George/Dragon, all you have is lots of people, a bar, music and smoking area. Some nights pop/chart music is played, other nights dance music is played etc. They seem pretty regular to me.

    That said I do think the Dublin scene needs greater variety


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  • #31
    hypersquirrel
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭hypersquirrel


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    You're blaming drag queens for the delay in you coming out???

    Perhaps intolerance had something to do with it.

    No, not blaming drag queens. Blaming the "scene" in general. When you are struggling to come to terms with something that is genuinely frightening to you the last thing you need is the stereotype being forced upon you. It's not drag queens that are the issue, each to their own and they have every right to do as they wish. The issue is to do with the perceived dominance of the stereotype.

    I am generally a quiet and reserved person. When you are first exploring your sexuality a lot of people don't just dive head first into it all. They look from a distance. From that distance all you see is the stereotype. That caused me to try to wish myself straight and deny my attraction to women because I didn't want to have to try and deal with all that. It was only when I started to become more secure in my own sexuality that I was able to look beyond it.


  • #32
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    hypersquirrel wrote: »
    No, not blaming drag queens. Blaming the "scene" in general. When you are struggling to come to terms with something that is genuinely frightening to you the last thing you need is the stereotype being forced upon you. It's not drag queens that are the issue, each to their own and they have every right to do as they wish. The issue is to do with the perceived dominance of the stereotype.

    I am generally a quiet and reserved person. When you are first exploring your sexuality a lot of people don't just dive head first into it all. They look from a distance. From that distance all you see is the stereotype. That caused me to try to wish myself straight and deny my attraction to women because I didn't want to have to try and deal with all that. It was only when I started to become more secure in my own sexuality that I was able to look beyond it.


    You're misdirecting your blame I'm afraid. It's people's intolerance of gay people (that helps to form these incorret stereotypes) that is the key issue relating to your delay. Your delay had nothing to do with the gay scene, other gay people, drag queens, Graham Norton or anything else that you mightn't like. It was down to the intolerance of people that surrounded you as you grew up and it's obviously rubbed off on you.


  • #33
    hypersquirrel
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭hypersquirrel


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    You're misdirecting your blame I'm afraid. It's people's intolerance of gay people (that helps to form these incorret stereotypes) that is the key issue relating to your delay.

    Well I can tell you now, I was never worried about what people would think of me. I was never worried that I would face intolerance. What worried me was entering into a scene that was totally alien to what I enjoy.

    That stereotype is not one created by intolerant homophobes. It is one created from within the gay community. Again the blame doesn't lie on drag queens, they are free to express themselves in any way they feel fit. It lies in the fact that this is a stereotype openly promoted by many lgbt groups around the country. Look at college societies for a start. When I was in college the lgbt were usually going around with rainbows painted on their faces and throwing confetti around the place.


  • #34
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I don't that we are ever going to see a lesbian bar like the George, I know there are plenty of unoffical lesbian bars/pub and you know about them via word of mouth rather then being publicised. The lesbian scene due to a range of factors is still very protected/sheltered in this country.


  • #35
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    hypersquirrel wrote: »
    Well I can tell you now, I was never worried about what people would think of me. I was never worried that I would face intolerance. What worried me was entering into a scene that was totally alien to what I enjoy.

    That stereotype is not one created by intolerant homophobes. It is one created from within the gay community. Again the blame doesn't lie on drag queens, they are free to express themselves in any way they feel fit. It lies in the fact that this is a stereotype openly promoted by many lgbt groups around the country. Look at college societies for a start. When I was in college the lgbt were usually going around with rainbows painted on their faces and throwing confetti around the place.

    So what??

    It's your sexuality, not a lifestyle. Some gay people are camp, like to dress up, listen to pop music. Some aren't.

    So what??


  • #36
    hypersquirrel
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭hypersquirrel


    The point was, you said the stereotype was created by people intolerant of gays when quite clearly it is a stereotype actively promoted within the gay community.

    As I have said multiple times, they have every right to do as they please, but in my instance, I found that it did result in me feeling alienated while you said it was nonsense to say that such behaviour leaves "straight" acting gays feeling isolated.


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  • #37
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Can we just not use the terms camp and non camp, cos straight acting is a daft term.
    I know 'straight' men and women who defy that label.


  • #38
    hypersquirrel
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭hypersquirrel


    Sorry, was just using it as it was the phrasing initially posted by someone.


  • #39
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    hypersquirrel wrote: »
    The point was, you said the stereotype was created by people intolerant of gays when quite clearly it is a stereotype actively promoted within the gay community.

    As I have said multiple times, they have every right to do as they please, but in my instance, I found that it did result in me feeling alienated while you said it was nonsense to say that such behaviour leaves "straight" acting gays feeling isolated.

    It's a real pity you feel isolated, perhaps you need to loosen up a little. Not all gay men are the same.

    The basic point is that all people need to be tolerant of all people, their sexuality and their lifestyle. If another gay guy is as camp as Xmas, it really doesn't bother me at all. What does bother me is when people are intolerant of him/make fun of him. They are the ones with the problems and they need to change their behaviour. Camp people do not.


  • #40
    hypersquirrel
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭hypersquirrel


    Well I think that's a point we can both agree on.


  • #41
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Can we just not use the terms camp and non camp, cos straight acting is a daft term.
    I know 'straight' men and women who defy that label.

    Yep sorry I agree. I think we need to get away from labels.


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  • #42
    azezil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,397 ✭✭✭✭azezil


    Well it's not *all* drag queens and pop music:
    From:http://www.queerid.com/topic.aspx?topicid=28719&pageno=1

    RULE stands for... Rubber, Uniform, Leather Experience. But the dress code includes more than that. See below.

    RULE
    Fetish Gay Dublin: Rubber.Uniform. Leather. Experience
    Is going to be the next Fetish Night in Dublin for "Men Only".

    30th January 8pm until Late
    McGrattans Bar
    Fitzwilliam Lane, Lower Baggot St, Dublin 2.
    (Behind Tesco's)


    RULE is the only gay fetish club in Dublin.
    We have a dress code which includes: Leather, Rubber, Uniform, Skinhead, Army, Work gear, Sports/Scally/Trackies, Bears, Lycra, Jockstrap with Chaps .

    It runs on the last Sunday of each month. It starts at 8pm and runs till late, in McGrattan's Bar, Fitzwillian Lane, off Baggott Street, Dublin 2.

    Admission is €5 before 10pm and €8 after 10pm.
    Students and unwaged are €5 all night (proof required after 10pm).

    We provide a cloakroom and changing facilities in the venue.

    Website www.rule.ie coming soon!

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/RULE/173571112678871?v=info

    In recent years more and more guys are coming out on the Irish gay fetish scene. This group is a way for us to meet each other online and organise events we want where we can meet up socially. We already have a new club night running in Dublin each month. The numbers attending the event are growing.

    If you want to hook up with other guys who share your interest in fetish gear then this is the place for you. Here we will keep you informed of upcoming events of interest to you and your friends. Together we can build a community and events we want.
    It's men only at the moment but they're hoping if it takes off to open a women only section too.


  • #43
    St._Andalou
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭St._Andalou


    This thread is interesting. One of my lecturers in college (who's straight) had a theory that people are intimidated by drag queens because they remind them that gender is not a fixed concept.
    Goodshape wrote: »
    Honest question, not trying to be smart I just simply don't understand it -- how did a man dressing up as a woman and miming to ****e pop music for an audience of men who are attracted to men ever become a staple of "gay culture" ?

    I'm a man, I'm attracted to men... so lets go and watch a man dressed up as a woman singing female pop songs? What?

    First off, I think you're exaggerating how much this is a staple on the gay scene. It's common, sure, but it's by no means the centre-piece of Dublin's gay scene.

    Why do you feel that you're being forced to identify with drag queens or pop music just because you're gay? Some gay men like pop music, but that's a matter of taste, not sexuality. I like pop music now and again (I have lots of embarrassing ****e on my iPod) but my favourite band is The Smiths. I think a lot of this is in your head.
    Goodshape wrote: »
    Is pop and drag an inescapable part of "gay culture"? That really makes me sad. Or am I just no fun and I should "come to terms with my sexuality" and learn to love the pop?

    Again, it's a matter of taste. It has nothing to do with your sexuality.
    Goodshape wrote: »
    Went to Q&A once or twice but pretty sure I must have missed it's good days. Particularly the second time I went, I think it was Veda (a drag queen) on stage playing what sounded very much like pop music to me. Or, at best, the most very obvious and safe indy.

    As Zoegh has already said, this is a matter of business rather than men's taste. The reality is, Dublin is a mid-sized city. There simply isn't the market there. There are a number of monthly/on-off gay indie clubs. I haven't been to Q&A in awhile, but I enjoyed it the last time I went. It was in the Vaults so there were three rooms -- each of which were playing different varieties of music. Drag queens are definitely not a main part of Q&A, nor are they a regular fixture there.

    These nights tend to come and go, or they fold and new ones spring up. Keep an eye on gay listings, or on Facebook. C.U.N.T. is very gay friendly I think, takes place sporadically, and plays an eclectic mix of music.

    I think if people apply stereotypes to you -- drag queens, pop music, etc. -- based on your sexual orientation then the problem is with them, not you. Lots of media outlets have stupid stereotypes of black people, for example: they like hip-hop, they're soulful musicians, and on and on; I don't assume that all black people are like this, and neither do you. Like I say, the issue may be largely in your head.


  • #44
    Goodshape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    St._Andalou wrote: »
    This thread is interesting. One of my lecturers in college (who's straight) had a theory that people are intimidated by drag queens because they remind them that gender is not a fixed concept.
    Maybe. But drag queens aren't attempting to change gender, it's just dress up, right?

    First off, I think you're exaggerating how much this is a staple on the gay scene. It's common, sure, but it's by no means the centre-piece of Dublin's gay scene.
    Well, it was a hungover rant. Slight exaggeration may have been included. Wasn't just about the drag queens though; it's the pop/disco music and general attitude too. I just don't like that "gay" carries with it any sort of behavioral requirements or expectations.

    As I mentioned in the other thread I was basically refused entry to the George last night for not looking gay enough.

    Seriously, I was well enough dressed, not too drunk, on my own. I got the "have you been here before?" line.. fair enough... "yeah, not in a while though. My boyfriend is inside". He gave me a 'yeah, right' look and said management reserves the right to refuse entry.

    Tried to call the boyfriend but no answer... I had to show him my personal text messages to prove I was, in fact, gay.

    What did he want? A pink top? Chaps? Should I have answered his questions with a lisp? Really pissed me off.

    Why do you feel that you're being forced to identify with drag queens or pop music just because you're gay? Some gay men like pop music, but that's a matter of taste, not sexuality.
    Right, but if I want to go somewhere I know I can safely sit close and share an occasional kiss with my boyfriend, the options that don't include obnoxious music and kitsch are very limited. Particularly on the weekend.
    I think a lot of this is in your head.
    Tbh, yeah, probably. Like I said, it was a hungover rant... and I don't much like straight disco's either if I'm being honest :). Not entirely unfounded though.

    Again, it's a matter of taste. It has nothing to do with your sexuality.
    Wasn't that my point?

    Where have the gay's with good taste got to go? ;)


    The reality is, Dublin is a mid-sized city. There simply isn't the market there.
    Yeah, I get that point. Pop and disco is what's expected and has been proven to sell. No one wants to take the risk.

    These nights tend to come and go, or they fold and new ones spring up. Keep an eye on gay listings, or on Facebook. C.U.N.T. is very gay friendly I think, takes place sporadically, and plays an eclectic mix of music.
    Will do!


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