Drag Queens... pop... etc...

Goodshape · 07-01-2011 3:13pm #1

Another one of my silly rants coming up... I just can't seem to grasp "gay culture" at all.

Honest question, not trying to be smart I just simply don't understand it -- how did a man dressing up as a woman and miming to ****e pop music for an audience of men who are attracted to men ever become a staple of "gay culture" ?

I'm a man, I'm attracted to men... so lets go and watch a man dressed up as a woman singing female pop songs? What?

Is it supposed to be ironic? Are we laughing at the stupidity of it all or actually supposed to be admiring how "fabulous" "she" looks? Neither is actually something I'd be bothered doing for hours on any night out.

I've been told to loosen up and not be so closed minded... enjoy the cheesy pop and drag queens, these people do more for my rights than I ever would (that one particularly vexed me but that's another thread).... really though? Is pop and drag an inescapable part of "gay culture"? That really makes me sad.

I'd consider myself open minded enough with regards music... love everything from classical, old school rock and roll, electronica, post-rock, bit of hiphop, metal, ska, reggae.. I'll give pretty much anything a listen so long as I can get some sense of integrity and passion from the artist. But I have a hard time seeing pop (most pop, anyway) as anything other than product. The people who make it are largely inconsequential. The people who sell it are manipulative c**ts who know exactly what they're doing. And the fact that all this has become so ingrained in this culture of a minority group that I'm supposed to be a part of just pisses me off. I feel sorry for the seemingly majority of gays for being led on by this targeted marketing (as I see it) and their subsequent inability to appreciate and feel real music by real artists. And sicked that I'm associated and have to put up with this crap by proxy.

Or am I just no fun and I should "come to terms with my sexuality" and learn to love the pop?

[/rant]

tl;dr -- I was in a "gay club" last night. FFFFFUUUUUUUUUU...

Dr. Baltar · 07-01-2011 4:18pm

On the music note I can't agree because I love absolutely everything from Dubstep to Classical to Metal to those Cheesy Eighties to Electro....

But as for Drag Queens? Well, I really don't get it either. I guess you could say that they are very "out there" and visible. They're very "we're queer and get used to it". But I don't get it either.

Also, I was going to ask some of the Trans members here recently whether Drag Queens offend them? Surely they are making a mockery of actual transgender people?

EDIT: Just remembered that on a very drunk night I once did drag at a house party. It was just a bit of fun. There was no eh, "reasoning" behind it.

Goodshape wrote: »

tl;dr -- I was in a "gay club" last night. FFFFFUUUUUUUUUU...

That was me yesterday morning. I hate gay clubs so much. Gay-Friendly is the way to go.

deirdre_dub · 07-01-2011 4:46pm

Splitting this question into its component parts -

1. Do I, as a trans person, find drag queens / kings offensive?

Yes and no.

No, I don't find drag queens / kings offensive, because they are expressing who they are, and I completely respect that.

Having said that, there is an unfortunate phenomenon out there where trans gets equated with drag, even in the LGBT community. I was once in Pantibar on a Thursday night and, during the interval in the Panti show, an American guy came up to me and started chatting to me. One of his first questions to me was - "when are you on stage?" :mad:

So long as the drag artist doesn't portray themselves as being representative of the trans community (they are representative of only a part of the trans community), then any equating of trans and drag isn't really the fault of the drag artist, but rather of the sterotyped views of trans people that are out there. Having said that, I believe there is a degree of responsibility on drag artists to combat those stereotypes whenever possible and appropriate.

I will say this, though - one of the artists in the Panti show is billed as "Ireland's best transsexual". That really really grates on me. Shame on Rory. I think that helps reinforce stereotypes, and I'd expect better than that from a leader in the community.

2. What do I make of drag shows in general?

They are "interesting". At this stage, I'm utterly tired of hearing the same thing over and over again in the Panti show. I don't "get" a lot of the shows, but they can make a nice backdrop to a good night out.

3. The whole gay culture and drag phenomenon

Drag is considered by many (myself included) to be an aspect of transgender, so drag belongs in the LGBT scene as much as I do.

I completely understand why gay men wouldn't "get" the whole thing of drag. However - trust me - there are plenty of gay men who love a feminine man.

In the transgender community, there are men who are euphemistically referred to as "admirers" - they are men who are specifically attracted to transgender (CD, TV and TS alike) women, and many of them are actually gay men.

4. The music

I don't know my music, but to be honest the music in most drag shows I've been to so far has been poor. I think the music thing is more about the carry on of the artists on the stage than it is about the actual music.

Endymion · 07-01-2011 5:10pm

Surely drag queens are as much a part of the trans (transgendered) community as transsexuals? And as such are just as representative of it as transsexuals? Also, can't drag queens be transsexual or even genderqueer? I've met at least one who would fix the "transsexual" label. I don't think there's anything about being a drag queen which excludes you from being transsexual, genderqueer, transvestite or even straight:eek:.

deirdre_dub · 07-01-2011 5:15pm

Endymion wrote: »

Surely drag queens are as much a part of the trans (transgendered) community as transsexuals?

Yes.

And as such are just as representative of it as transsexuals?

I cannot represent drag queens any more than a drag queen can represent me.

There are fundamental differences between drag queens, crossdressers, transvestites and transsexuals. I don't like being mistaken for a drag queen any more than Rory would like to be asked when he is having the operation to remove his bits.

Also, can't drag queens be transsexual or even genderqueer? I've met at least one who would fix the "transsexual" label.

Yes.

My point about being uncomfortable about the "Ireland's number one transsexual" remark is that it uses "transsexual" as a marketing thing.

Azure_sky · 07-01-2011 5:17pm

Drag Queens are very repetitive. "Ohh suits you Sir!" Funny for a few minutes but the one dimensional humour soon wears off. Like Deirdre, I find it annoying that people mistake Drag Queens with transsexuals, though I find it even more annoying when people mistake fetishtic transvestites with transsexuals. Having said that, I've realised that Drag Queens and transvestites are not the ones to blame, it's the fault of people who are too lazy to understand the difference. But it is pretty sad that Miss Panti referred to himself (I say him as I'm assuming he identifies as a gay male?) as a transsexual.

Endymion · 07-01-2011 5:24pm

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Yes.
I cannot represent drag queens any more than a drag queen can represent me.

There are fundamental differences between drag queens, crossdressers, transvestites and transsexuals. I don't like being mistaken for a drag queen any more than Rory would like to be asked when he is having the operation to remove his bits.
Yes.

My point about being uncomfortable about the "Ireland's number one transsexual" remark is that it uses "transsexual" as a marketing thing.

I see. Fair comments.

Goodshape · 07-01-2011 6:09pm

No offense but I was hoping this thread wouldn't get sidetracked into a "how drag queens relate to trans*" discussion.

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

On the music note I can't agree because I love absolutely everything from Dubstep to Classical to Metal to those Cheesy Eighties to Electro....

Yeah? Maybe I should loosen up slightly re: the music. I'm just really passionate about good music and hate to see it treated, advertised, bought and sold just like any other product. Also the repetitive nature of most modern pop is really grating.

That Beyonce 'Ring on it' song? It's fun every once in a blue moon, sure, but it's the same one or two lines to the same mind numbing keyboard beats repeated over and over and over and over. Give me a break ffs.

Also I'd make a distinction between cheesy eighties pop ballads and modern pop. Nice thing about the 80's is that it's 20 - 30 years ago! We can cherry-pick the best bits and totally forget about the rest.

But as for Drag Queens? Well, I really don't get it either. I guess you could say that they are very "out there" and visible. They're very "we're queer and get used to it". But I don't get it either.

That'd be one of my theories alright. You've been called 'sissy' so much you basically snap and say "oh, you think that's sissy?! Check THIS out!". Commendable enough but in 2011 I'd be inclined to just say get over yourselves, tbh.

EDIT: Just remembered that on a very drunk night I once did drag at a house party. It was just a bit of fun. There was no eh, "reasoning" behind it.

I've got nothing against fun

or men dressing up as women for whatever reason... just wonder why it's so inescapable on the 'scene'.

Annasopra · 07-01-2011 6:32pm

Goodshape wrote: »

I've got nothing against fun or men dressing up as women for whatever reason... just wonder why it's so inescapable on the 'scene'.

Because we live in Ireland and our scene is very monocultural - Its heavily dominated by stereotypes of cheesy pop and drag Go to the large cities like New York, London etc and the scenes there are much much more diverse

I wonder will the new club that Panti is involved be any different?

Goodshape · 07-01-2011 6:54pm

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Because we live in Ireland and our scene is very monocultural - Its heavily dominated by stereotypes of cheesy pop and drag Go to the large cities like New York, London etc and the scenes there are much much more diverse

Yeah? Must check that out sometime. Only out-of-Ireland gay pub or club I've been to was in Prague and yeah, that was pretty much the same as it is here.

I wonder will the new club that Panti is involved be any different?

It's Panti, so I can only doubt it.

Fwiw though, even if i can't stand the drag queen song-miming, PantiBar is still probably best of the bunch. Rory seems to do a good job of being a sort of community figure-head and at the best of times it's a comparatively decent and relaxed place to be.

KnifeWRENCH · 07-01-2011 7:30pm

I've never got the appeal of drag queens either. I'm all for hearing cheesy pop on a night out, but I don't want to hear it being either mimed or tunelessly warbled by a man in a dress. And the "comedy" aspect of it seems very repetitive. If a drag queen wants to make political commentary or clever social satire, I'd be all for it. However, it just seems to be a lot of "dick" jokes.

I don't go ever go "on the scene" anyway so I'm not subjected to it. But it most get very old and irritating for people on the scene who don't get the appeal of it.

Azure_sky · 07-01-2011 7:31pm

What's the story with this new Panti club just out of curiosity? Is it just like the Panti bar but more of a night club sort of thing?

Annasopra · 07-01-2011 7:36pm

have a look at GCN online november or december issue and it gives you more info about Pantis new club - I think Rory knows quite well that people want something different to cheesy pop and drag and may surprise you goodshape

ixoy · 07-01-2011 8:31pm

Well I have to agree with you on the music - it's always been pretty woeful pop. Always the same songs week-on-week but yet the enthusiastic shriekings (yes, they were actual shrieks) that some of these songs got made me despair that they'd ever change it.

I'm not sure if you've ever tried "Q & A"? It was designed to give an alternative. It's rarely on now though and I do think they've diluted the "alternative" angle and gone much closer to pop in recent years.
Years ago we had Sharpshooters in Eamon Doran's. Ah to be in a gay club and dance to NIN's "Head Like a Hole" or Pearl Jam's "Alive". Alas, it didn't last...

I'll also agree that I don't drag acts remotely entertaining, for many of the reasons stated above. I'll put this, and the music, to something I just will never really get and one of the reasons why I'm not bothered with the gay scene in general.

Goodshape · 07-01-2011 8:45pm

Went to Q&A once or twice but pretty sure I must have missed it's good days. Particularly the second time I went, I think it was Veda (a drag queen) on stage playing what sounded very much like pop music to me. Or, at best, the most very obvious and safe indy.

baby and crumble · 07-01-2011 8:52pm

The thing is, there have been alternative nights, but they either changed or stopped. that to me says that the people who are willing to go out and spend money are the ones who want cheese. if people who love hard rock etc want a gay bar that caters to that, then you have to support it. We talk a lot about 'community' but fact is, if bars and events don't make money, then why would people keep going with them? Rory has been mentioned a lot, but he's under no obligation to be the head of the community. He's a businessman and an entertainer. Seems like classic supply and demand to me.

I think that's also the reason there's no lesbian bar in Dublin, and that the lesbian scene has a very small number of dedicated nights. Most lesbians, once in a relationship, don't go out. From my experience of gay guys in relationships, that isn't the case. If the community wants it, but isn't prepared to support it by their presence or economically, then it won't last.

hell, I'd love a lesbian bar where I could go and hang out, with folk-rock playing in the background, comic books lying around for perusal and a giant xbox hooked up for playing. (AKA my sitting-room with an admission price

) Not going to happen, and if I'm honest if one were to pop up I'd probably go once and not have the money again.

hotmail.com · 08-01-2011 1:55am

I think there's more straight people in the George watching the queens than there is gay people at times. So I don't understand why straight clubs don't put on drag shows, I'd say they would draw a huge crowd.

As for why drag queens are associated with gay clubs...it's probably to do with gay history. Men that liked to dress as women were accepted in gay bars and felt safe from abuse, so it was a natural progression that drag queens would perform almost exclusively in gay bars.

AFAIK, Panti, the drag queen owner of Panti Bar, has a tent at Electric Picnic.

lionchild · 08-01-2011 6:23am

Here's my theory;

This is just a general observation, an opinion....NOT A FACT!!!

Being very general about this, and I stress the generalisation, gay men often tend to be quite reserved as children, don't play sports, feel they don't fit in etc. This leads to spending more time being introvert and doing activities that fit into that profile,ie, watching tv,computers, reading etc. They may have more female friends or perhaps find it easier to relate to women. They become intrigued by the mediated image of women. Tv shows, films, magazines etc.

When these men are older and have accepted the fact they are gay, they feel the need to be expressive and almost attention seeking in their actions. For example, a gay man who actually doesn't have any vocal ability, can still gain attention for dressing as a woman and miming to a song. It's not attention for an actual talent but attention all the same. The fact that they are miming is almost like a safe barrier for the individual. All eyes are on me but nothing can really go wrong. This links back to the feeling of not fitting in as a kid. They satisfy the mediated idea of what it is to be famous from what they have seen for so long in the media.

This is just one man's thought.

But, yeah, I have to agree with the original post. Drag sucks...pointless for me. I'd have more fun throwing a 50 off O' Connell bridge. At least I'd get to see if float away in the wind. it would be mildly entertaining. Paying into a gaybar to see mime artists...while sipping over priced drinks...not for this boyo!:pac:

Quentinkrisp · 09-01-2011 1:14am

Good post OP - i have a fairly ambivalent approach to drag, im kind of 'meh' about the whole thing, i find it briefly funny but annoying as well sometimes: i wouldnt view anyone who's into drag as being any less of a person, its just not my thing. I myself am far more reserved, im not big into drama, i rarely raise my voice and i like my rock and techno just as much as i like my pop (some of it!madonna, pet shop boys,daft punk & scissor sisters)

of course, IMO, drag isnt central to being gay whatsoever, the whole point about being gay is having a sexual attraction to someone of the same gender as your own!! I'm not into dressing up or spending hours doing my hair before a night out, i just put on whatever fits, is clean and is at hand!:) i dont see my sexuality as a commodity or a reason to behave differently to the way i had before, to a certain extent. the 2 key phrases to remember in this discussion are 'each to their own' and 'whatever floats your boat'

p.s: i think brenda power's an absolute moron for judging the entire gay community in ireland based on the actions of drag queens: saying that the gay community dont deserve equal treatment because some of them like to dress up in drag is the exact same as saying that the irish people dont deserve legal rights just because a few of them wear green hats at paddy's day :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Aard · 09-01-2011 1:41am

Drag shows should be something people do in the privacy of their own house parties. I've done it once or twice. It was fun, silly, and probably something I would've done even if I were straight.

Shows in bars I just don't get. OK, I've had an "interesting" chat or two with Mary Harness, who is utterly fantastic, but the rest of them leave me feeling dry. They promote themselves as entertainers (I think), but they're not good actors, not good comedians, not good dancers, not good presenters, and I'm pretty sure the whole thing isn't an ironic joke.

They perpetuate stereotypes, make gay bars intolerable, alienate "straight acting" gays, create legions of befringed hangers-on, bring down the collective IQ, reduce being gay to a kitsch show, don't offer value for money, make middle-aged men think that being a bitchy queen is to be strived for, and so on.

I don't like them.

Quentinkrisp · 09-01-2011 1:59am

Aard wrote: »

Drag shows should be something people do in the privacy of their own house parties. I've done it once or twice. It was fun, silly, and probably something I would've done even if I were straight.

Shows in bars I just don't get. OK, I've had an "interesting" chat or two with Mary Harness, who is utterly fantastic, but the rest of them leave me feeling dry. They promote themselves as entertainers (I think), but they're not good actors, not good comedians, not good dancers, not good presenters, and I'm pretty sure the whole thing isn't an ironic joke.

They perpetuate stereotypes, make gay bars intolerable, alienate "straight acting" gays, create legions of befringed hangers-on, bring down the collective IQ, reduce being gay to a kitsch show, don't offer value for money, make middle-aged men think that being a bitchy queen is to be strived for, and so on.

I don't like them.

fair enough, i've a couple of gay mates who think the same way

A lemon · 10-01-2011 3:08pm

It's nice to see that other people feel that way. Tbh, I find the scene in general pretty shallow and banal. The music, the insipid drag shows etc. Yes, I understand that people have fun with these aspects of the gay scene, but it's a bit sad that this is essentially the face of the community. I guess the same goes for gay pride. If would be nice if the political rallies had even half that turnout. I've read a few articles by older folks lamenting the erosion of "gay culture" in modern society. Personally, I can't wait for the gays to be swallowed up by the black hole that is the mainstream. I recall reading a quote somewhere, that read something like "the ultimate goal of gay culture is to eliminate the need for its existence". Sounds good, I don't know if I can handle more Ke$ha and Kylie...

hotmail.com · 10-01-2011 6:59pm

Aard wrote: »

Drag shows should be something people do in the privacy of their own house parties. I've done it once or twice. It was fun, silly, and probably something I would've done even if I were straight.

Shows in bars I just don't get. OK, I've had an "interesting" chat or two with Mary Harness, who is utterly fantastic, but the rest of them leave me feeling dry. They promote themselves as entertainers (I think), but they're not good actors, not good comedians, not good dancers, not good presenters, and I'm pretty sure the whole thing isn't an ironic joke.

They perpetuate stereotypes, make gay bars intolerable, alienate "straight acting" gays, create legions of befringed hangers-on, bring down the collective IQ, reduce being gay to a kitsch show, don't offer value for money, make middle-aged men think that being a bitchy queen is to be strived for, and so on.

I don't like them.

Ouch...bitchy. Have ya tried doing drag yourself?

The alienating straight acting gays is rubbish. They just have issues with themselves.

Goodshape · 10-01-2011 7:38pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Ouch...bitchy. Have ya tried doing drag yourself?

The alienating straight acting gays is rubbish. They just have issues with themselves.

I thought he kinda hit the nail on the head tbh. As a 'straight acting' gay guy how can I not feel a bit alienated when the entire community* seems to revolve around drag queens, over-emphasised sexuality and pop music that I suspect even my little sisters grew out of by the time they hit adolescence.

But, of course, I've got "issues" with myself for not embracing it all and jumping on board the big pink bandwagon? Right. Now I definitely feel like a welcome part of the community.

(*maybe entire community is taking it a bit far but unless my issue is that I'm looking in the wrong places, it certainly seems to be the visible majority).

Aard · 10-01-2011 7:41pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Ouch...bitchy. Have ya tried doing drag yourself?

I don't need to dress up as a woman to be a cunt.

hypersquirrel · 10-01-2011 10:25pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Ouch...bitchy. Have ya tried doing drag yourself?

The alienating straight acting gays is rubbish. They just have issues with themselves.

It's not nonsense at all. If it wasn't for all that stuff I probably would have come out far sooner.

alexjk · 10-01-2011 11:13pm

I think it depends on the performer. Of the times that I've seen a show in Pantibar, I've found it mostly entertaining whereas I've never had that from the drag shows in the George. I'm mostly willing them off the stage so I can dance, but they must have some audience if they've lasted as long as they have.

hotmail.com · 11-01-2011 12:03am

hypersquirrel wrote: »

It's not nonsense at all. If it wasn't for all that stuff I probably would have come out far sooner.

You're blaming drag queens for the delay in you coming out???

Perhaps intolerance had something to do with it.

hotmail.com · 11-01-2011 12:06am

hypersquirrel wrote: »

It's not nonsense at all. If it wasn't for all that stuff I probably would have come out far sooner.

And this is what I mean by issues and even when it's pointed out, they get defensive.

hotmail.com · 11-01-2011 12:12am

Goodshape wrote: »

I thought he kinda hit the nail on the head tbh. As a 'straight acting' gay guy how can I not feel a bit alienated when the entire community* seems to revolve around drag queens, over-emphasised sexuality and pop music that I suspect even my little sisters grew out of by the time they hit adolescence.

But, of course, I've got "issues" with myself for not embracing it all and jumping on board the big pink bandwagon? Right. Now I definitely feel like a welcome part of the community.

(*maybe entire community is taking it a bit far but unless my issue is that I'm looking in the wrong places, it certainly seems to be the visible majority).

If you go in late to the George/Dragon, all you have is lots of people, a bar, music and smoking area. Some nights pop/chart music is played, other nights dance music is played etc. They seem pretty regular to me.

That said I do think the Dublin scene needs greater variety

hypersquirrel · 11-01-2011 12:26am

hotmail.com wrote: »

You're blaming drag queens for the delay in you coming out???

Perhaps intolerance had something to do with it.

No, not blaming drag queens. Blaming the "scene" in general. When you are struggling to come to terms with something that is genuinely frightening to you the last thing you need is the stereotype being forced upon you. It's not drag queens that are the issue, each to their own and they have every right to do as they wish. The issue is to do with the perceived dominance of the stereotype.

I am generally a quiet and reserved person. When you are first exploring your sexuality a lot of people don't just dive head first into it all. They look from a distance. From that distance all you see is the stereotype. That caused me to try to wish myself straight and deny my attraction to women because I didn't want to have to try and deal with all that. It was only when I started to become more secure in my own sexuality that I was able to look beyond it.

Drag Queens... pop... etc...

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