Are you proud of your class background?

Terry · 22-07-2008 3:46pm

Dudess wrote: »

It bugs me the way it's seemingly fair game to take the piss out of middle-class people for simply being middle-class. I'm not talking snooty *****, I'm talking about run-of-the-mill middle-class people like myself who have the audacity to get an education and to speak properly.

We have to take the piss out of someone.
Suck it up, woman.

ntlbell · 22-07-2008 3:49pm

surely what's defined as being working class/middle class has changed a lot since times got "good"

Can a guy who started working as a plumber, who now has 20/30 lads working for him living in a nice 4 bed in castleknock 3/4 holidays a year drives the latest and greatest merc/BMW/4x4 speaks with a rough Dublin accent and has no 3rd level education can we still call him working class?

If wealth and education is the primary factor in class where do we put him?

Where do we put his kids?

The class sytem in Ireland has changed so much there just seems to be two types of people

people with and people without there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground anymore

I've never heard of people been taken the p||s out of for being middle class, middle class are too boring to slag, it's eithier the "working class" who get the brunt of it or the toffee's

what can you say aboout a middle class person?

your eh middle of the road mr average joe? zzzZZzZZzzZ

stovelid · 22-07-2008 3:50pm

Dudess wrote: »

Or are you from a tough area and proud of yourself for the fact that you've made something of yourself, unlike a lot of your peers?.

I'm from one of the worst and I suppose I am proud, to be honest. But I'd never be stupid enough to admit it to anybody personally, except for friends from a similar background. As a consequence, I couldn't care less where other people are from, although I secretly laugh (gently) at people from middle-class backgrounds with a prole fetish.

justsomebloke · 22-07-2008 3:54pm

Dudess wrote: »

It bugs me the way it's seemingly fair game to take the piss out of middle-class people for simply being middle-class. I'm not talking snooty *****, I'm talking about run-of-the-mill middle-class people like myself who have the audacity to get an education and to speak properly.

hey I'm middle class, have a degree and still have no intention of speaking properly

Poccington · 22-07-2008 3:56pm

stovelid wrote: »

I'm from one of the worst and I suppose I am proud, to be honest. But I'd never be stupid enough to admit it to anybody personally, except for friends from a similar background. As a consequence, I couldn't care less where other people are from, although I secretly laugh (gently) at people from middle-class backgrounds with a prole fetish.

Why wouldn't you admit it to anybody? You mustn't be that proud if you can't admit it to people.

Dudess · 22-07-2008 3:58pm

ntlbell, you're right. There is a lot of ambiguity, but you also did what I'm saying - call middle-class people boring. THAT'S one of the lines that's regularly trotted out to insult middle-class people.

stovelid wrote: »

I'm from one of the worst, and I suppose I am proud, to be honest. But I'd never be stupid enough to admit it to anybody personally, except for friends from a similar background. As a consequence, I couldn't care less where other people are from, although I secretly laugh (gently) at people from middle-class backgrounds with a prole fetish.

Yeah, I've come across many MANY knobs like that over the years: "laugh along with the common people,
laugh along even though they're laughing at you,
and the stupid things that you do.
Because you think that poor is cool."

If there's one type of person I hate more than people from poor areas slapping themselves on the back and ridiculing those who are middle-class, it's middle-class people who try to act working-class/poor or who worship at the altar of working-class/poor. See: trendy, right-on academics/art teachers.

brianthebard · 22-07-2008 3:58pm

eoin_s wrote: »

That's fair enough, my comment was probably better directed to those who seem to think that anyone from a middle class background hasn't had to work to get where they are. Anyway, I think Ireland has a relatively flat class structure; certainly compared to the UK.

i respectfully disagree.Our class system is quite complex.There are (from perceived lowest to highest)travellers,immigrants,'knackers/chavs',unskilled working class,service industry workers and small farmers,skilled wc and medium farmers.Then middle class:wealthy builders and farmers,management class,small businessmen,professions like teachers,doctors,etc(again with built in strata),larger businessmen,highly skilled v.Well paid professions.Finally upper class:'celebrities'-ugh,super rich businessmen,landed folk(not many left but a few).You may disagree with some placings but generally i think thats accurate.Afraid i'm on the mobile and can't go into greater detail.

Eoin · 22-07-2008 3:59pm

Dudess wrote:

It bugs me the way it's seemingly fair game to take the piss out of middle-class people for simply being middle-class.

I think it's the same logic as "you can't be discriminated against if you're white".

ntlbell wrote:

I've never heard of people been taken the p||s out of for being middle class, middle class are too boring to slag, it's eithier the "working class" who get the brunt of it or the toffee's

We really don't have an upper / "toff" class in Ireland though. The likes of Lord Mount Charles aren't really that relevant here, like the aristocracy in the UK.

Your other points were very valid though.

JohnCleary · 22-07-2008 4:00pm

I'm proud of myself for making my own dosh so far in life and never being dependant on my parents (well, until I started working @ 12) for my posessions etc.

To date i've never taken out a bank loan, have all the toys I want, dress well and eat even better

Granted i'm still a student during the day (and Batman at night, thats how I makes my monies ya see) so the big sh1tbrick will come when it's time to buy a house.

What concerns me though is seeing people my age act like muppets because they can spend their oul pair's money. Driving 'their' cars, that their parents bought, going on holidays and spending their parents money. I just think of it as how fcuked they'd be if their parents died tomorrow (horrible thing to say I know)

TBH it doesn't p1ss me off as it doesn't effect me (I dont get jealous easy) and eventhough I don't get to have as soft a life as other people my age i'm happier being busy, working for myself and doing well in college. Oh, and having better hobbies than "awuh man, so wasted last night loike"

ntlbell · 22-07-2008 4:01pm

Dudess wrote: »

ntlbell, you're right. There is a lot of ambiguity, but you also did what I'm saying - call middle-class people boring. THAT'S one of the lines that's regularly trotted out to insult middle-class people.

\o/ I didn't even notice, I didn't mean it in a "bad" way there' just nothing to say about the "class" really there's nothing really funny about it.

for the most part neutral accents, on average wage usually doing an average job, goes on average holiday's it's all a bit meh!

ejmaztec · 22-07-2008 4:01pm

jsb wrote: »

hey I'm middle class, have a degree and still have no intention of speaking properly

Carry on slurring - As they do in BGRH? :pac:

Eoin · 22-07-2008 4:03pm

brianthebard wrote: »

i respectfully disagree.Our class system is quite complex.There are (from perceived lowest to highest)travellers,immigrants,'knackers/chavs',unskilled working class,service industry workers and small farmers,skilled wc and medium farmers.Then middle class:wealthy builders and farmers,management class,small businessmen,professions like teachers,doctors,etc(again with built in strata),larger businessmen,highly skilled v.Well paid professions.Finally upper class:'celebrities'-ugh,super rich businessmen,landed folk(not many left but a few).You may disagree with some placings but generally i think thats accurate.Afraid i'm on the mobile and can't go into greater detail.

Well, it's not a communist society, so there will always be lots of slight differences. My point is that you could find the vast majority of any of those different types of people living in the same estate in Ireland

Upper class to me generally means Aristocracy, certainly not the likes of celebrities.

ntlbell · 22-07-2008 4:03pm

eoin_s wrote: »

We really don't have an upper / "toff" class in Ireland though. The likes of Lord Mount Charles aren't really that relevant here, like the aristocracy in the UK.

Your other points were very valid though.

I guess it's more about old mony vs neaveau riche

the "high end" of the "middle class" scale :pac:

Kold · 22-07-2008 4:04pm

My father was a farmer's son from Tipperary and my mother was the daughter of a Vietnamese business man and her step father was a Vietnamese ambassador. They went on to be a teacher/building contracter and an accountant/shop owner respectively.

I don't really know where that puts me in the terms of class. I'm not working class by any means but we're not a terribly wealthy family. I figure middle class but I wouldn't put us amongst other middle class families. I wouldn't say I'm proud of our background, I'm more proud of the mix of cultures I've been exposed to in my youth, I think this has probably been very useful in my pursuit of my career in art.

Terry · 22-07-2008 4:05pm

JohnCleary wrote: »

I'm proud of myself for making my own dosh so far in life and never being dependant on my parents (well, until I started working @ 12) for my posessions etc.

To date i've never taken out a bank loan, have all the toys I want, dress well and eat even better Granted i'm still a student during the day (and Batman at night, thats how I makes my monies ya see) so the big sh1tbrick will come when it's time to buy a house.

What concerns me though is seeing people my age act like muppets because they can spend their oul pair's money. Driving 'their' cars, that their parents bought, going on holidays and spending their parents money. I just think of it as how fcuked they'd be if their parents died tomorrow (horrible thing to say I know)

TBH it doesn't p1ss me off as it doesn't effect me (I dont get jealous easy) and eventhough I don't get to have as soft a life as other people my age i'm happier being busy, working for myself and doing well in college. Oh, and having better hobbies than "awuh man, so wasted last night loike"

Don't worry about the house.
I know where there's an abandoned one.
Just move in there and in no time at all you will have squatter's rights.

Jimoslimos · 22-07-2008 4:06pm

eoin_s wrote: »

Anyway, I think Ireland has a relatively flat class structure; certainly compared to the UK.

Most definitely, I'm always reminded of that Monty Python sketch when this issue of class is brought up.

What really irritate the s**t out of me is when renewing my passport some of the only acceptable counter-signatories I can have are;

Priest
Garda/Police Officer
Solicitor/Lawyer
Member of government (local/national)
Bank manager
Teacher
Accountant, etc.

all because of some antiquated notion that these professions somehow bestow upon the person a higher level of trustworthiness than the rest of us. I wouldn't be too long disproving that for many of the above

Poccington · 22-07-2008 4:08pm

Dudess wrote: »

ntlbell, you're right. There is a lot of ambiguity, but you also did what I'm saying - call middle-class people boring. THAT'S one of the lines that's regularly trotted out to insult middle-class people.

Yeah, I've come across many MANY knobs like that over the years: "laugh along with the common people,
laugh along even though they're laughing at you,
and the stupid things that you do.
Because you think that poor is cool."

If there's one type of person I hate more than people from poor areas slapping themselves on the back and ridiculing those who are middle-class, it's middle-class people who try to act working-class/poor or who worship at the altar of working-class/poor. See: trendy, right-on academics/art teachers.

But then there's middle-class people who ridicule people for being working-class. It works both ways.

stovelid · 22-07-2008 4:08pm

Poccington wrote: »

Why wouldn't you admit it to anybody? You mustn't be that proud if you can't admit it to people.

Because most people don't give a sh*t?

I never hide where I'm from. I just don't go around bigging it up, because most of the time it's not relevant.

Some clown in your workplace or college with a cartoon working class routine designed to guilt-trip rich kids is just as annoying as a Ross O'Carroll-Kelly type.

ejmaztec · 22-07-2008 4:09pm

Old money keeps a fairly low profile, whereas new money gets waved around quite a bit.

Poccington · 22-07-2008 4:10pm

stovelid wrote: »

Because most people don't give a sh*t?

I never hide where I'm from. I just don't go around bigging it up, because most of the time it's not relevant.

Some clown in your workplace or college with a cartoon working class routine designed to guilt-trip rich kids is just as annoying as a Ross O'Carroll-Kelly type.

Ah I see, I think I just misunderstood what you were saying in the last post.

Sorry about that one.

Dudess · 22-07-2008 4:12pm

Kold wrote: »

My father was a farmer's son from Tipperary and my mother was the daughter of a Vietnamese business man and her step father was a Vietnamese ambassador. They went on to be a teacher/building contracter and an accountant/shop owner respectively.

I don't really know where that puts me in the terms of class. I'm not working class by any means but we're not a terribly wealthy family. I figure middle class but I wouldn't put us amongst other middle class families. I wouldn't say I'm proud of our background, I'm more proud of the mix of cultures I've been exposed to in my youth, I think this has probably been very useful in my pursuit of my career in art.

The Crawford (art college where Kold goes) is apparently staffed by at least one teacher with, as stovelid calls it, a "prole fetish". My mate who went there was quite blatantly singled out by a particular teacher because she's from a fairly well-off background. And the bitch fed this attitude to students. One of her classmates from a tough part of Cork was constantly giving her grief about her class background. My mate didn't have the chip on her shoulder at all, the other girl did. It's not surprising an art teacher would prefer people from poor areas - your art isn't "real" unless you've experienced some level of difficulty I suppose. Or something...

Terry · 22-07-2008 4:13pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Old money keeps a fairly low profile, whereas new money gets waved around quite a bit.

Indeed.
Why else do you think there are so many big cars on the road these days?

An old Datsun Sunny used to do the same job.

brianthebard · 22-07-2008 4:13pm

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Most definitely, I'm always reminded of that Monty Python sketch when this issue of class is brought up.

What really irritate the s**t out of me is when renewing my passport some of the only acceptable counter-signatories I can have are;

Priest
Garda/Police Officer
Solicitor/Lawyer
Member of government (local/national)
Bank manager
Teacher
Accountant, etc.

all because of some antiquated notion that these professions somehow bestow upon the person a higher level of trustworthiness than the rest of us. I wouldn't be too long disproving that for many of the above

how can you claim we have a flat class structure and then immediately show that we don't?Just wanting it to be so doesn't make it so,and just knowing something is a social construct doesn't stop it from existing.

Terry · 22-07-2008 4:16pm

Dudess wrote: »

The Crawford (art college where Kold goes) is apparently staffed by at least one teacher with, as stovelid calls it, a "prole fetish". My mate who went there was quite blatantly singled out by a particular teacher because she's from a fairly well-off background. And the bitch fed this attitude to students. One of her classmates from a tough part of Cork was constantly giving her grief about her class background. My mate didn't have the chip on her shoulder at all, the other girl did. It's not surprising an art teacher would prefer people from poor areas - your art isn't "real" unless you've experienced some level of difficulty I suppose. Or something...

Really?
Why am I not rich then?
Gimme money for my art.

Poccington · 22-07-2008 4:17pm

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Most definitely, I'm always reminded of that Monty Python sketch when this issue of class is brought up.

What really irritate the s**t out of me is when renewing my passport some of the only acceptable counter-signatories I can have are;

Priest
Garda/Police Officer
Solicitor/Lawyer
Member of government (local/national)
Bank manager
Teacher
Accountant, etc.

all because of some antiquated notion that these professions somehow bestow upon the person a higher level of trustworthiness than the rest of us. I wouldn't be too long disproving that for many of the above

Well in fairness you're hardly gonna get it signed by the local drug dealer or the lads that hang around down at the shops.

LivingDeadGirl · 22-07-2008 4:18pm

I would more than likely be considered middle class. I have no strong feelings about my backround. What does bother me is other people presuming I'm a spoilt little bitch because we live in a large house and have two 07 cars. My parents may have money, but when it comes to their children, they are the cheapest people I know. I'm not bitter about what I've received from them, they raised me well enough, I never went without anything I really needed. I just get very annoyed when others presume I'm spoilt and get everything I want. There's a lot of begrudgery around I guess. :rolleyes:

ntlbell · 22-07-2008 4:18pm

Terry wrote: »

Really?
Why am I not rich then?
Gimme money for my art.

http://url.ie/jnh

Dudess · 22-07-2008 4:18pm

Poccington wrote: »

But then there's middle-class people who ridicule people for being working-class. It works both ways.

But so? Neither justifies the other. I'm not denying there are idiots who ridicule those who are working-class/poor.

Dudess · 22-07-2008 4:19pm

LivingDeadGirl wrote: »

I would more than likely be considered middle class. I have no strong feelings about my backround. What does bother me is other people presuming I'm a spoilt little bitch because we live in a large house and have two 07 cars. My parents may have money, but when it comes to their children, they are the cheapest people I know. I'm not bitter about what I've received from them, they raised me well enough, I never went without anything I really needed. I just get very annoyed when others presume I'm spoilt and get everything I want. There's a lot of begrudgery around I guess. :rolleyes:

Yeah I got that sh1t too when I was in school.

Kold · 22-07-2008 4:19pm

Dudess wrote: »

The Crawford (art college where Kold goes) is apparently staffed by at least one teacher with, as stovelid calls it, a "prole fetish". My mate who went there was quite blatantly singled out by a particular teacher because she's from a fairly well-off background. And the bitch fed this attitude to students. One of her classmates from a tough part of Cork was constantly giving her grief about her class background. My mate didn't have the chip on her shoulder at all, the other girl did. It's not surprising an art teacher would prefer people from poor areas - your art isn't "real" unless you've experienced some level of difficulty I suppose. Or something...

We've some awesome tutors and some fairly idiotic ones. My work puts quite a lot of emphasis on my special brand of humour which definitely wouldn't be telling of any class background >_<

Are you proud of your class background?

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