Double murder accused granted bail!!!

DonJose · 17-07-2008 4:47pm #1

WTF???

A Dublin youth charged with the murders of Polish nationals Pawel Kalite and Marius Szwajkos was today served with the book of evidence and sent forward for trial to the Central Criminal Court....

Following his first court appearance he had been remanded in custody but was subsequently granted bail by the High Court....

Conditional bail including a curfew from 10pm to 7am and a ban on consuming drink and drugs had been fixed by the High Court in March with a cash lodgement of €4,000....

However, the teenager is being held in custody in St Patrick’s Institution on foot of a High Court warrant pending an application to have his bail revoked next week....

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlaukfkfmh/

Dragan · 17-07-2008 4:49pm

If he is inside he costs money.

If they let him out they get a bail payment.

DonJose · 17-07-2008 4:50pm

Dragan wrote: »

If he is inside he costs money.

If they let him out they get a bail payment.

Forget about the money aspect. THIS GUY IS ACCUSED OF THE MURDER OF TWO PEOPLE!!!

LouOB · 17-07-2008 4:51pm

SCUM
end of discussion

DonJose · 17-07-2008 4:53pm

LouOB wrote: »

SCUM
end of discussion

I'll wait for the verdict before I start the name calling, but I'm in shock that a person charged with 2 murders can be given bail.

AngryBadger · 17-07-2008 4:54pm

I think Dragans point is that from a fiscal perspective it's cheaper if he's on the streets, (in other words not a moral choice).

That said, you focused on his "release" and completely failed to notice that he's been remanded in custody pending the outcome of an attempt to revoke his bail.

Davei141 · 17-07-2008 4:54pm

How exactly do you think it works?

Sherifu · 17-07-2008 4:56pm

To England, forthwith!

DonJose · 17-07-2008 4:58pm

AngryBadger wrote: »

That said, you focused on his "release" and completely failed to notice that he's been remanded in custody pending the outcome of an attempt to revoke his bail.

Yeah never got that far as I was fuming :mad: The fact that bail was granted is sickening :mad:

Holsten · 17-07-2008 5:03pm

This is the Irish judicial system, is it news to you that it's quite ****ed up?

seamus · 17-07-2008 5:18pm

Dragan wrote: »

If he is inside he costs money.

If they let him out they get a bail payment.

Actually bail is only a bond, not a payment. If the kid turns up to court again, then the person who put up his bail gets their €4k back.

€4k is way too small. It should be something more substantial like €250k (i.e. the cost of his Dad's house).

At least though the kid is actually still in custody because someone realised that letting him out was a dumb idea.

Dinter · 17-07-2008 5:31pm

AngryBadger wrote: »

I think Dragans point is that from a fiscal perspective it's cheaper if he's on the streets, (in other words not a moral choice).

That's true and to be honest I think everyone should be entitled to bail and it shouldn't be the province of only the rich. Still his bail conditions are a joke. It's not even house arrest, just a curfew.

AngryBadger wrote: »

That said, you focused on his "release" and completely failed to notice that he's been remanded in custody pending the outcome of an attempt to revoke his bail.

Yes, but not to sound pedantic but the only reason he's still remanded is because he was granted bail.

He should still be in custody as a result of never having been granted bail on such a charge in the first instance. The lightweight bond is a joke.

I suppose it's an indication of the Irish Justice system that someone is meant to weigh up four grand, compare it to the possible sentence and decide to stick around as losing four grand is worse than being convicted. :rolleyes:

grumpytrousers · 17-07-2008 5:37pm

DonJose wrote: »

Forget about the money aspect. THIS GUY IS ACCUSED OF THE MURDER OF TWO PEOPLE!!!

well spotted. He's accused of it. Not guilty. If a person isn't guilty of a crime and doesn't have 'form' for not turning up for court hearings, it's possible for bail to be granted with rather strict conditions. I'm not saying that the conditions here are strict enough, or agreeing with the terms, but the idea that a person should be locked up just 'cos they've been accused of something is ridiculous.

What if the case is thrown out? What if he's found not guilty by virtue of the evidence presented? He'd never get that time spent inside.

First time he steps out of line whilst out on bail, he's going in anyway, so it's not as if the streets are that unsafe. And if they are, that's the price we pay (rightly or wrongly) for having a system where you're innocent till proven guilty.

and @ Seamus - the chances are that the cash lodgement is only a portion of what the person who put up the money would be 'down' if the guy didn't turn up; they tend to require 1/3 of the bail be cash, such that the surety is actually 'bonded' to the amount of €12,000. Still not worth the value of a house, but the kind of money that will mean that the surety will try and be certain the accused will actually turn up for the hearing.

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connundrum · 17-07-2008 5:44pm

Innocent until proven guilty.

I assume that had he caused trouble whilst in custody, the bail application would've been rejected. He may very well have behaved sensibly, and therefore would be seen as low risk.

I do however take the point, as last year I remember there was a shocking statistic showing the amount of 'accused' crims skipping out whilst on bail. Why don't we have these electronic ankle tag gismos? That'd at least make the general public feel a bit safer, I think.

Maximilian · 17-07-2008 6:03pm

connundrum wrote: »

Innocent until proven guilty.

That's a concept that's entirely lost on many people around here.

It's "presumed guilty 'cos that's wot I did read in the Star and wot everyone else does think, until proven innocent"

DonJose · 17-07-2008 6:07pm

connundrum wrote: »

I do however take the point, as last year I remember there was a shocking statistic showing the amount of 'accused' crims skipping out whilst on bail.

Too true, just read a story about one of these cases this week,

Lithuanian man accused of rape fails to make court appearance

He was remanded on continuing bail for the rape trial but was then arrested at the door of the court-room in the Round Hall of the Four Courts on foot of a European arrest warrant for an alleged offence in Lithuania and taken away in handcuffs....

The accused’s partner told Mr Bowman she had posted €4,000 bail for him....

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/0714/ireland/mhgbsngbidmh/

DonJose · 17-07-2008 6:10pm

DonJose wrote: »

I'll wait for the verdict before I start the name calling, but I'm in shock that a person charged with 2 murders can be given bail.

Maximilian wrote: »

That's a concept that's entirely lost on many people around here.

It's "presumed guilty 'cos that's wot I did read in the Star and wot everyone else does think, until proven innocent"

Which is exactly why I posted, "I'll wait for the verdict before I start the name calling, but I'm in shock that a person charged with 2 murders can be given bail." Plus I also made reference to "ACCUSED" several times.

Degsy · 17-07-2008 6:12pm

This is the little bollox who showed up at his first hearing wearing a tracksuit.For that alone i'd happily sentence him to death.

Miguel_Sanchez · 17-07-2008 6:19pm

Maximilian wrote: »

That's a concept that's entirely lost on many people around here.

Not on good ol' Paudge Behan though.

"In Irlandesa innocente until proven guilty!"

Maximilian · 17-07-2008 10:21pm

DonJose wrote: »

Which is exactly why I posted, "I'll wait for the verdict before I start the name calling, but I'm in shock that a person charged with 2 murders can be given bail." Plus I also made reference to "ACCUSED" several times.

Steady on old chap, I wasn't referring to you, rather those who will before long crawl out from rocks up yonder where thar be that there moral hoy groun'

kowloon · 17-07-2008 10:44pm

Is he tagged?

taidghbaby · 17-07-2008 10:51pm

if two irishmen were killed in poland, and then one of the accused was granted bail then there would be absolute outroar here!!!

johnnyskeleton · 17-07-2008 10:55pm

DonJose wrote: »

Forget about the money aspect. THIS GUY IS ACCUSED OF THE MURDER OF TWO PEOPLE!!!

Accused. Not too long ago a man was held in custody for over a year on foot of a false allegation of rape.

Our bail laws are really quite simple, unless there is a good reason to refuse bail, it is granted as of right. You are presumed innocent and you have the right to liberty that shall not be interfered with save in due course of law.

On the other hand, if the gardai suspected that he was going to commit more serious crimes they could make a s.2. application to have bail revoked, so there is nothing wrong with the legal system.

What is wrong is that people look no further than the charges, and, as Maximilian says, presume guilt.

ejmaztec · 17-07-2008 11:19pm

I don't know they don't just drive 'em to the airport. At least they'll then know where they've gone.

Tha Gopher · 17-07-2008 11:30pm

DonJose wrote: »

Too true, just read a story about one of these cases this week,

Lithuanian man accused of rape fails to make court appearance

He was remanded on continuing bail for the rape trial but was then arrested at the door of the court-room in the Round Hall of the Four Courts on foot of a European arrest warrant for an alleged offence in Lithuania and taken away in handcuffs....

The accused’s partner told Mr Bowman she had posted €4,000 bail for him....

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/0714/ireland/mhgbsngbidmh/

Fookin foreigners. If an Irish lad was up on a charge commited against a foreigner he would be on remand!

EamonnKeane · 17-07-2008 11:59pm

Degsy wrote: »

This is the little bollox who showed up at his first hearing wearing a tracksuit.For that alone i'd happily sentence him to death.

RACIST! That "tracksuit" is a traditional garment of his unique culture. The bright, clashing colours symbolise his sexual potency. The €200 runners advertise his wealth.

Also, it doesn't matter that he's only accused. The case carries (potentially) two life sentences, making it almost certain that he's already off to Morocco in a rowboat

DiscoHugh · 18-07-2008 12:37am

Jeff_Lebowski wrote: »

Not on good ol' Paudge Behan though.

"In Irlandesa innocente until proven guilty!"

That was so cringe-worthy....and he's lived in Italy for 2 years :eek:

Mimikyu · 18-07-2008 2:02am

This post has been deleted.

Jim_Are_Great · 18-07-2008 2:21am

Solitaryman666 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And then if they are proven innocent? What happens to compensate them for the time they spent imprisoned for, let's face it, no reason?

Solitaryman666 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, and there's a reason we have courts: to try and examine that evidence to make absolutely sure that the accused person has, in fact, done something which warrants the total destruction of their liberty.

connundrum · 22-07-2008 5:41pm

As an update, Newstalk are now saying that this young chap is to come before the High Court as he was in breech of his bail terms.

Apparently he was caught off his head on E and drink about 3 weeks ago.

He hasn't been arrested but is due to make this court appearance where the Judge will take this new evidence into consideration.

Innocent or guilty, when you're on bail and act the eejit then you deserve a kick in the hole.

Terry · 22-07-2008 5:48pm

Solitaryman666 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think you did it and should be locked up until you can prove you are innocent.

Maximilian · 22-07-2008 6:07pm

Terry wrote: »

I think you did it and should be locked up until you can prove you are innocent.

Indeed. What's more, the AH mods could start banning people if they felt a person is likely to breach the Charter.

Terry · 22-07-2008 6:38pm

I already do that.

Catari Jaguar · 22-07-2008 7:31pm

Dragan wrote: »

If he is inside he costs money.

If they let him out they get a bail payment.

Yes, their lives are only worth 4000e. Letting an accused murderer wander the streets is worth 4000e? What a crazy statement to make.

gurramok · 22-07-2008 8:08pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Our bail laws are really quite simple, unless there is a good reason to refuse bail, it is granted as of right. You are presumed innocent and you have the right to liberty that shall not be interfered with save in due course of law.

On the other hand, if the gardai suspected that he was going to commit more serious crimes they could make a s.2. application to have bail revoked, so there is nothing wrong with the legal system.

What is wrong is that people look no further than the charges, and, as Maximilian says, presume guilt.

So, its the Garda fault for not making this application to revoke bail?

How do we draw a line on the bigger picture, should every person accused of murder be granted bail?
I believe they shouldn't as i do trust the gardai to apprehend the right people who have been suspected of this offence with evidence due before a court.

It just ain't right!

grumpytrousers · 23-07-2008 9:47am

gurramok wrote: »

How do we draw a line on the bigger picture, should every person accused of murder be granted bail?

If there's no reason to suspect that they won't turn up for their trial, and no reason to suspect that they won't offend again, then yes.

gurramok wrote: »

I believe they shouldn't as i do trust the gardai to apprehend the right people who have been suspected of this offence with evidence due before a court.

But sure if the Gardai are always going to get the right person, why do we bother our arses having trials in the first instance? As a rubber-stamping exercise?

Why not just give the Gardai power to lock up anybody once they reckon that 'yer man must have done it'.

Double murder accused granted bail!!!

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