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Drugs/Murdering Gangs & public apathy

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  • 29-06-2010 10:14am
    #1
    delop
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭


    I was distressed last night to see some old familiar stories start appearing in the press again. Huge cocaine finds , 2 brothers murdered brazenly on the streets with automatic weapons and a politician murdered in mexico by drug Gangs...

    What is the solution to this? Harsher prison sentences dont seem to work, and no amount of murder seem to put these gangs off. It seems there is a lucrative market that these gangs what to feed.

    I may be wrong here but it seems to me the Great and good of the middle class Ireland, are just not interested, I hear no debate on the radio yet.

    So I had a good think about it and tried and failed to put together a letter for the Minister of Justice ( I didn't send it because, I dont believe he is capable of debate on any issue) :

    Dear minister,
    Now while the Gardai should be commended for the successful raid lastnight, I do hope you see some tenuous connection to your rushed and ill considered legislation against the headshops, introduced without any debate, these drug finds and the murder of 2 brothers yesterday (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0629/breaking4.html) was shocking, whatever their history. While I would not attribute the blame for these murders to the Government, after all the Government did not pull the trigger, however, In my opinion, it could be argued within reason that Government Policy suddenly created a vacuum in the market that these Gangs were bound scramble to fill.

    A serious debate should be considered in the area of Government Drug Policy lest in a few years we end up with these headlines you seen in Mexico.
    This seems to me to be spiraling out of control.

    yours...


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    #2
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    They are killing their own for the most part thank god. Good riddance really.
    I was distressed last night to see some old familiar stories start appearing in the press again. Huge cocaine finds , 2 brothers murdered brazenly on the streets with automatic weapons and a politician murdered in mexico by drug Gangs...

    What does either have to with each other?


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    #3
    delop
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    rovert wrote: »
    They are killing their own for the most part thank god. Good riddance really.

    You see in my humble opinion, the position you are taking is exactly what I worry, that a large proportion of Ireland passively believe good riddance . What does Mexico have to do with it? Well government policy over there has escalated the violence and now the public in Mexico are very interested because they are killing more than their 'own' .

    Its something i do not want to happen here.. We have to figure this out before bystanders start loosing their lives...


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    #4
    Lando Griffin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,952 ✭✭✭Lando Griffin


    Have the sale of drugs taken away from these death merchants and sold in a controlled and regulated manner; oh wait we just outlawed it.


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    #5
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    delop wrote: »
    You see in my humble opinion, the position you are taking is exactly what I worry, that a large proportion of Ireland passively believe good riddance . What does Mexico have to do with it? Well government policy over there has escalated the violence and now the public in Mexico are very interested because they are killing more than their 'own' .

    Its something i do not want to happen here.. We have to figure this out before bystanders start loosing their lives...

    I really dont think you understand the Mexico situation particularly.


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    #6
    delop
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    rovert wrote: »
    I really dont think you understand the Mexico situation particularly.

    Oh i see, sorry for wasting your time, how do i delete my thread, I hate to look the fool...


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    #7
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    delop wrote: »
    Oh i see, sorry for wasting your time, how do i delete my thread, I hate to look the fool...

    But you dont last time I checked Ireland has never had a party like the Institutional Revolutionary Party in power.


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    #8
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    The principle fallacy of the recent head shops debacle was that by banning head shops the government could stop consumption of drugs. Wrong. The demand will always be there, now it's just criminals who benefit. These kind of ridiculous decisions come about when hysteria trumps reason.


    The legalisation of certain drugs would have some big advantages.
    • The main one - it would take the drug trade out of the hands of gangsters who are very willing to kill for their business.
    • Consumers of soft drugs, like marijuana, would not form links with drug dealers who also sell drugs like heroin, thus going some way towards preventing hash being a "gateway drug".
    • Quality control could be introduced to ensure drugs are safer. Obviously they will never be completely safe, in the same way that alcohol isn't.
    • Government could stipulate that drugs be manufactured here, thus (very partly) alleviating the plague of armed militias and organised gangs in drug producing countries.
    • Tax - not a very important one compared to the others, but still a factor.


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    #9
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Wait, I dont think we would be allowed to legalize drugs, with the EU?


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    #10
    rubberdiddies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 717 ✭✭✭rubberdiddies


    it baffles me to see how people think that the headshops were providing legal drugs in a safe manner.

    I've seen first hand, week after week in A&E the damage that these legal highs were causing. That flow of people has suddenly stopped. Coincidence? I think not!

    Of course there are still people getting seriously ill/dying on a daily basis from illegal drugs, but making them legal is certainly not the answer. Sure why are they still illegal in 99.9% of the world?


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    #11
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    The principle fallacy of the recent head shops debacle was that by banning head shops the government could stop consumption of drugs. Wrong.

    Sorry what?


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    #12
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    delop wrote: »
    What is the solution to this? Harsher prison sentences dont seem to work, and no amount of murder seem to put these gangs off. It seems there is a lucrative market that these gangs what to feed.

    I may be wrong here but it seems to me the Great and good of the middle class Ireland, are just not interested
    The solution is legalisation, strict regulation and taxation of these drugs, to take them out of the hands of the criminals.

    We have a solution, but no political will to implement it. Excuse people if they get tired of repeating it over and over and over again. As long as this prohibitionist stance is taken towards the drugs market, things will remain exactly the same, so frankly, there is no need for discussion.


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    #13
    delop
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    rovert wrote: »
    Sorry what?

    Man, is it not possible to have a debate anymore? you seem very annoyed about something, dont take internet debate so seriously, its just a conversation, no one is trying to undermine your core values/beliefs, whatever they are, which is difficult to deduce from your one line remarks...
    :confused:


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    #14
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    rovert wrote: »
    Sorry what?

    People said that head shops should be banned to prevent people from using drugs.

    When head shops were banned people could still purchase drugs from illegal suppliers.

    The demand is still there. Banning head shops has not erased it.


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    #15
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    delop wrote: »
    Man, is it not possible to have a debate anymore? you seem very annoyed about something, dont take internet debate so seriously, its just a conversation, no one is trying to undermine your core values/beliefs, whatever they are, which is difficult to deduce from your one line remarks...
    :confused:

    You still havent anwered my question about the Mexico situation please dont lecture me about debating.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    People said that head shops should be banned to prevent people from using drugs.

    Which people? Your referred to it as the principle fallacy.


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    #16
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    rovert wrote: »
    They are killing their own for the most part thank god. Good riddance really.


    +1. Let them keep knocking each other off.


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    #17
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    rovert wrote: »
    Which people? Your referred to it as the principle fallacy.

    Well that was the reason given for the legislation, no? "Drugs are bad for people, let's ban head shops".

    1224266810427_1.jpg


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    #18
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Well that was the reason given for the legislation, no? "Drugs are bad for people, let's ban head shops".

    1224266810427_1.jpg

    Isnt wasnt it was to ban the free sale of harmful substances.

    That picture doesnt support your argument either.


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    #19
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    rovert wrote: »
    Isnt wasnt it was to ban the free sale of harmful substances.

    With what goal in mind? Presumably to stop people using drugs.


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    #20
    Vim Fuego
    Registered Users Posts: 743 ✭✭✭Vim Fuego


    Let's not forget Shane Geoghegan in Limerick, who was murdered due to a case of mistaken identity. He had nothing to do with crime and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Saying they just kill each other just isn't good enough.

    Barring some form of revolution on this subject (legalisation), I think the best way forward in the short-term is restructuring our drug policy and allocating Garda resouces accordingly.

    To do so, I believe that 'recreational' drugs such as canibus & ecstacy should be declassified, making personal possession punishable by a spot fine. This should free up Garda time allowing them to focus on the Class A and the upper tiers of the drug trade.

    Horrible issue though, no one has dealt with it successfully yet.


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    #21
    delop
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    rovert wrote: »
    You still havent anwered my question about the Mexico situation please dont lecture me about debating.
    .

    Ok you question about 'the Mexico situation' I included it because it is my belief that the closing of the Head Shops created a vacuum, that Irish gangs are going to try and fill. there will be more violence , a natural increased effort by the politicians and Gardai
    from Charlie Flanagan from the Indo
    "Fine Gael wants tough measures, including a 25-year mandatory sentence for gangland murder. And we want more gardai freed from routine paperwork duties and returned to frontline policing."

    And in Mexico there was a huge political drive by their new president Felipe Calderon that has appeared to backfire creating more violence
    Recent days have seen a major escalation in the violence in Mexico as the cartels challenge a clampdown on their activities ordered by Felipe Calderon, Mexico's president.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/mexico/5830018/Mexico-drug-wars-violence-escalates-as-cartels-challenge-Felipe-Calderons-war-on-drugs.html

    And BTW where do you get the idea that Im lecturing you? For the record Im not.


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    #22
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    With what goal in mind? Presumably to stop people using drugs.

    If this was the governments MO why isnt coffee, alcohol, cigerettes etc banned?

    You still have provide me with instances of "people" saying that head shops should be banned to prevent people from using drugs to the degree that is the principle fallacy.

    Additionally I dont know what this has to do with the topic. I thought this about Ireland potentially turning into Mexico. A discuss which frankly would be more fun and lolworthy.
    delop wrote: »
    Ok you question about 'the Mexico situation' I included it because it is my belief that the closing of the Head Shops created a vacuum, that Irish gangs are going to try and fill. there will be more violence , a natural increased effort by the politicians and Gardai


    And in Mexico there was a huge political drive by their new president Felipe Calderon that has appeared to backfire creating more violence


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/mexico/5830018/Mexico-drug-wars-violence-escalates-as-cartels-challenge-Felipe-Calderons-war-on-drugs.html

    And BTW where do you get the idea that Im lecturing you? For the record Im not.

    You still havent answered my question or havent shown an understanding about the particular differences both historical and contextual between Mexico's and Ireland's situations. Clue: it goes further back than 2009 which that story story comes from.
    Vim Fuego wrote: »
    Saying they just kill each other just isn't good enough.

    No one said anything of the sort.


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    #23
    Vim Fuego
    Registered Users Posts: 743 ✭✭✭Vim Fuego


    Oh right, I see, this is turning into yet another 'quote and complain' thread. I won't bother so, all the best with your discussion.


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    #24
    delop
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    rovert wrote: »
    You still havent answered my question or havent shown an understanding about the particular differences both historical and contextual between Mexico's and Ireland's situations.
    .

    Ok i give up , you win whatever competition was going on, We are not in a court of law, and I'm not a Journalist. I thought I had explained myself reasonably for a boards conversation.

    Obviously I dont know what Im talking about...


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    #25
    Executive Steve
    Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Executive Steve


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Wait, I dont think we would be allowed to legalize drugs, with the EU?


    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization


    ^ The Portugese model is well worth examining.


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    #26
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    delop wrote: »
    Ok i give up , you win whatever competition was going on, We are not in a court of law, and I'm not a Journalist. I thought I had explained myself reasonably for a boards conversation.

    Obviously I dont know what Im talking about...

    You dont, Mexico is primarily a production and transportation country for drugs, Ireland is not. I think Columbia transports drugs through Ireland to get the lucative US market does it?

    The drugs gangs in Mexico at various times have implicit agreements with the Mexico government. I really dont think that situation has occurred in Ireland. The modern wars traced back to the breakdown of such an agreement in the late 1980s. Which created a much large vaccum than the closure of some silly shops over here.

    There is systematic, large scale corruption with the Mexican police, drug enfforcement and border control agents. I dont that exists in Ireland either.


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    #27
    piby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 539 ✭✭✭piby


    rovert wrote: »
    You dont, Mexico is primarily a production and transportation country for drugs, Ireland is not. I think Columbia transports drugs through Ireland to get the lucative US market does it?

    The drugs gangs in Mexico at various times have implicit agreements with the Mexico government. I really dont think that situation has occurred in Ireland. The modern wars traced back to the breakdown of such an agreement in the late 1980s. Which created a much large vaccum than the closure of some silly shops over here.

    There is systematic, large scale corruption with the Mexican police, drug enfforcement and border control agents. I dont that exists in Ireland either.

    I think the point that delop was trying to make was that the concerted effort to defeat the gangs in Mexico that was implemented by Calderon in 2006 when he sent in the army has spectacularly backfired. What was supposed to be a massive crackdown has instead turned into an all-out war. Mexico of course is considerably different to Ireland. It is the spine of the drugs trade between South and North America, a billion dollar industry. The gangs over there make the ones here look like the Care Bears (the Zetas are ex-special forces) which are well-equiped and well-trained with a complete disregard for human life. As you say corruption is rife and anybody who tries to do anything about it just gets wasted. Rodolfo Cantu, a candidate for mayor in Tamaulipas was gunned down yesterday:
    According to Mexican media, Cantu who was running for governor of Tamaulipas had promised his main path of concentration would be fighting against drug cartels and drug related crimes if elected.

    So comparing Mexico to Ireland is probably a serious stretch but the point was valid i.e. that just trying to stamp it out with more soldiers (or in our case Guards) or more force isn't the best solution.

    So how do we tackle it? Well the truth is that we'll never beat the supply. The law combats it, slows it down, makes it more difficult but there'll always be a way. As long as such serious sums of money are there for the taking somebody will always be ruthless and intelligent enough to find a way to do it. So if we can't completey destroy the supply then we have to target the demand in one of two ways:
    1. Decriminalisation
    2. Stop people from wanting to take or actually taking drugs

    I'm still not so sure about decriminalisation because although I've heard good arguments for it I've heard bad ones too. Irish people are bad enough with alcohol so I can only imagine what would happen if drugs were legal. It would be a social experiment that would end the careers of many people if it failed. Whatever about political will we have to remember we're a couple of people on the internet, doing it IRL with the whole world watching to see how it works out is another matter. Perhaps, as has been suggested, the answer lies in partial decriminalisation but that's a grey are i.e. which drugs etc. Further we've been trying the second option in various guises for years but so far nothing has worked!

    Still I reiterate if you want these guys to stop blowing each other away on the streets you got to crush the demand but easier said than done.


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    #28
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    rovert wrote: »
    If this was the governments MO why isnt coffee, alcohol, cigerettes etc banned?

    Because culturally drugs like marijuana aren't considered in the same league as those things you mentioned.
    rovert wrote: »
    You still have provide me with instances of "people" saying that head shops should be banned to prevent people from using drugs to the degree that is the principle fallacy.

    Why do you think people wanted head shops banned?
    rovert wrote: »
    Additionally I dont know what this has to do with the topic.

    The OP is concerned that the drugs trade in Ireland is become increasingly militant.

    A solution to this problem is to take the trade out of the hands of drug dealers.

    Banning the head shops had the exact opposite effect as it pushed head shop customers towards illegal avenues of supply.

    Hence, government policy is only accentuating the problem outlined in the original post. So I think it is very relevant to the topic.


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    #29
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    Seriously then why bring Mexico into the argument?

    Instead of repeating some else's talking points Eliot Rosewater identify these mythical people.


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    #30
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    :confused:

    It's simply: why do you think people are against head shops?


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    #31
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    :confused:

    It's simply: why do you think people are against head shops?

    Who are these people you keep on talking about?


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