Irish Rail Fines / Court

Good Name · 29-08-2013 9:16pm #1

Can anyone advise if they have ever went to court with Irish rail over a fixed penalty fine.

Long story short I use the train an odd time I normally get on in Enfield and as there is no ticket machine I buy in Connolly which is fine , however the last day I was getting on in Kilcock so the night before I check on line and it advised there was no ticket machine in Kilcock so I presumed it would be the same as Enfield.

However when I arrived in Connolly and tried to buy my return ticket to Kilcock I was hit with the fine as there was a machine at the station and the site was wrong. I showed them my phone showing why I had made my assumption but to no avail I had a meeting at work do couldn't keep arguing.

Anyway that night when I got back I looked in Kilcock and the ticket machine is located in a location you don't even pass when getting on the train and there is no sign up before you get on the train advising there is a machine

So basically I got a fine for no ticket but I don't think it is fair due to the error on line.

I have appealed it and they rejected it with a generic reply.

My question is how would it stand up in court , I have screen shots of the sure and photos of the machine location etc.

Finally they have since updated the site with the correct info!

Thanks

dregin · 29-08-2013 11:53pm

This site snapshots sites at regular intervals. Chances are, it'll have an old version of the page you refer to that backs up your story: http://archive.org/web/web.php

Best of luck with it.

GTE · 29-08-2013 11:58pm

Well, it said no ticket machine on Jan 31 2013 so maybe there is something there.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130131052259/http://www.irishrail.ie/Kilcock

It is tough on you to get a fine when you openly went to the ticket desk in Connolly. :rolleyes: I have always disliked the way IE run the Enfileld/Kilcock ticketing.

Good Name · 30-08-2013 6:38am

bbk wrote: »

Well, it said no ticket machine on Jan 31 2013 so maybe there is something there.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130131052259/http://www.irishrail.ie/Kilcock

It is tough on you to get a fine when you openly went to the ticket desk in Connolly. :rolleyes: I have always disliked the way IE run the Enfileld/Kilcock ticketing.

Yea it is very inconsistent and if you are not a regular user of Kilcock and walk to the station you don't pass the ticket machine they have in place.

I have about 5 screen shots showing where it said no machine on site this coupled with the machine location , my e-nails to them etc will hopefully be enough.

I would just hope that if it did go to cour a judge would apply common sense to this scenario , fingers crossed

Good Name · 30-08-2013 6:42am

dregin wrote: »

This site snapshots sites at regular intervals. Chances are, it'll have an old version of the page you refer to that backs up your story: http://archive.org/web/web.php

Best of luck with it.

That's great thanks , I will actually gather a few more in case Irish rail try say there was an error on line or something like that when I checked. Thanks again all help appreciated

Losty Dublin · 30-08-2013 11:07am

The ticket machine is right beside the entrance gate that brings you into Kilcock station; it's pretty hard not to have noticed it as you walked in.

AlekSmart · 30-08-2013 12:00pm

Good Name : Yea it is very inconsistent and if you are not a regular user of Kilcock and walk to the station you don't pass the ticket machine they have in place.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The ticket machine is right beside the entrance gate that brings you into Kilcock station; it's pretty hard not to have noticed it as you walked in.

Oh Oh...collision course here ?

foggy_lad · 30-08-2013 12:22pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The ticket machine is right beside the entrance gate that brings you into Kilcock station; it's pretty hard not to have noticed it as you walked in.

You could easily walk right past it without seeing it as you head for the station! The metal structure is heavily vandalised and does not really look anything like a ticket machine, this and Irish Rail giving notice on their website that there was no machine should go in the op's favour.

Losty Dublin · 30-08-2013 12:58pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Oh Oh...collision course here ?

Alek, I clarified this from a friend who uses said station 3-4 times a week. Hmmmm, as they say

Good Name · 30-08-2013 1:01pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

You could easily walk right past it without seeing it as you head for the station! The metal structure is heavily vandalised and does not really look anything like a ticket machine, this and Irish Rail giving notice on their website that there was no machine should go in the op's favour.

Exactly foggy ,if you walk to the station or get dropped off you don't pass the machine , the machine is in a metal structure which faces away from you as you enter , bear in mind I also arrived at the station not expecting a machine as per the web site! Basically unless you park in the station you have no reason to walk past the machine and when I say past I mean passed the front of the machine!

Good Name · 30-08-2013 1:03pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The ticket machine is right beside the entrance gate that brings you into Kilcock station; it's pretty hard not to have noticed it as you walked in.

Incorrect! As per my comment below the machine faces away from the entrance so unless you are parking in the station you won't see it! Plus I wasn't looking for a machine as the site advised there was none at the station!!!!!!!!

Losty Dublin · 30-08-2013 1:29pm

Good Name wrote: »

Incorrect! As per my comment below the machine faces away from the entrance so unless you are parking in the station you won't see it! Plus I wasn't looking for a machine as the site advised there was none at the station!!!!!!!!

I'm only telling you what a regular user of the station told me; it's beside the sole entrance into the single platform station.

Fair enough if you didn't expect one to be there based on what you read online. However it is up to you to convince the judge to dismiss this because you couldn't or decided not to find the ticket machine. Think wisely about this before you make your next move; it will mean a day in court if it comes to it.

Good Name · 30-08-2013 2:16pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'm only telling you what a regular user of the station told me; it's beside the sole entrance into the single platform station.

Fair enough if you didn't expect one to be there based on what you read online. However it is up to you to convince the judge to dismiss this because you couldn't or decided not to find the ticket machine. Think wisely about this before you make your next move; it will mean a day in court if it comes to it.

Fair enough but if you don't expect a machine at the station it is not likely you will walk around looking for one. The photos I took show what my view was like when I entered the station and there is no view if the machine! Also there is no sign advising there is a machine etc. anyway I take your point and didn't start the tread for an argument I am just looking for opinions of you guys ðŸ˜႒

foggy_lad · 30-08-2013 2:18pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'm only telling you what a regular user of the station told me; it's beside the sole entrance into the single platform station.

Fair enough if you didn't expect one to be there based on what you read online. However it is up to you to convince the judge to dismiss this because you couldn't or decided not to find the ticket machine. Think wisely about this before you make your next move; it will mean a day in court if it comes to it.

The op was not looking for a ticket machine, they walked straight onto the platform as indicated by the information supplied by irish rail on their website at the time. They told the op that there was NO ticket machine and as such gave permission for the op to board their train and buy their ticket at the destination or on the train.

If irish rail placed a ticket machine inside a concrete/stele bunker on the platform at brombridge so that you cant see that it is a ticket machine but did not advertise this how many customers do you think would use it?

Losty Dublin · 30-08-2013 2:45pm

Good Name wrote: »

Fair enough but if you don't expect a machine at the station it is not likely you will walk around looking for one. The photos I took show what my view was like when I entered the station and there is no view if the machine! Also there is no sign advising there is a machine etc. anyway I take your point and didn't start the tread for an argument I am just looking for opinions of you guys ðŸ˜႒

Opinions on here? Surely not

:)

To be honest, your normal options here are to pay up, appeal (Which you have done) or else take your chances in court.

If you take it to court and intend to make a defence on some point then you will almost certainly need a solicitor to plead your case and to work with whatever facts that you have on your side. The question is this, is a day off work along with the cost of your legal counsel and the risk of a fine and conviction or a donation to the likes of a court poor box if it goes tits up worth the spend here?

As far as economics and stress go, paying up may be the least worst option to take here.

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 4:21pm

If there was 10 machines there with the word Tickets above them in big flashing lights, would you ignore them because the web site said there wasnt any there and?. If the op told them that he couldnt find the machine and that he checked the web site to make sure which told him that there wasnt one there then the op may have a case seeing that he went looking for a return ticket. The easiest thing to do would have been to issue him the ticket. The op could argue in court that IR have no proof that he actually travelled on the train without a ticket.

foggy_lad · 30-08-2013 5:49pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Opinions on here? Surely not :)

To be honest, your normal options here are to pay up, appeal (Which you have done) or else take your chances in court.

If you take it to court and intend to make a defence on some point then you will almost certainly need a solicitor to plead your case and to work with whatever facts that you have on your side. The question is this, is a day off work along with the cost of your legal counsel and the risk of a fine and conviction or a donation to the likes of a court poor box if it goes tits up worth the spend here?

As far as economics and stress go, paying up may be the least worst option to take here.

Are irish rails RPU extorting money from people then? If they make it so that paying a fine is the best option even when there's no grounds for them issuing the fine and use the whole least worst option thing surely that is extortion?

jimmycrackcorm · 30-08-2013 5:57pm

I'm missing something...

Op can get the train from Enfield, goes and buys a ticket in Connolly - no problem
Op gets the train from Kilcock, goes and and buys a ticket in Connolly = Fine

How do you not get a fine coming from Enfield - can you just get on at Kilcock and then say you want to buy a ticket for Enfield?

Good Name · 30-08-2013 7:48pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm missing something...

Op can get the train from Enfield, goes and buys a ticket in Connolly - no problem
Op gets the train from Kilcock, goes and and buys a ticket in Connolly = Fine

How do you not get a fine coming from Enfield - can you just get on at Kilcock and then say you want to buy a ticket for Enfield?

The whole system is a joke , Irish rail should have machines at all stations to avoid confusion , in Enfield or any other stations where there is no machine or desk you can purchase at Connolly but if you ask me they just look for any excuse to hand out finds & they have an appeals process that has a blanket no to any appeals it just makes no sense to me and looks like it is just a money spinner!

I feel like they make it so you have no choice to pay the fine but I am going to stand firm on this as there was no intent for me to avade the fair and I feel I done nothing wrong here!

I would love to hear from anyone that has ended up in court with these shower of money grabbers

All feedback and help appreciated

Good Name · 30-08-2013 7:52pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If there was 10 machines there with the word Tickets above them in big flashing lights, would you ignore them because the web site said there wasnt any there and?. If the op told them that he couldnt find the machine and that he checked the web site to make sure which told him that there wasnt one there then the op may have a case seeing that he went looking for a return ticket. The easiest thing to do would have been to issue him the ticket. The op could argue in court that IR have no proof that he actually travelled on the train without a ticket.

I agree this while situation could have been avoided if the men working in that box when I arrived applied common sense. I even showed them my iPhone and done a fresh search in front of them showing that on line it advises no ticket machine.

The guys were more interested in treating me like a criminal that use some common sense.

Called the station today and asked for a manager to see if someone can look at this from a common sense side but was told managers don't take calls.

I really have exhausted all options with these guys in Irish rail they don't respond or communicate in anyway. The only correspondence I have had is a generic e-mail that wasn't even addressed to me , I'm guessing they just copy and paste the same reply regardless of the situation

Good Name · 30-08-2013 8:13pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are irish rails RPU extorting money from people then? If they make it so that paying a fine is the best option even when there's no grounds for them issuing the fine and use the whole least worst option thing surely that is extortion?

Sure feels that way!!

Carawaystick · 30-08-2013 8:24pm

You could have a look at the consumer protection act
Sections 38-40 (or thereabouts) outline the offense of misleading advertising which might be what happened here

Good Name · 30-08-2013 8:34pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

You could have a look at the consumer protection act
Sections 38-40 (or thereabouts) outline the offense of misleading advertising which might be what happened here

Thanks for that , I am willing to try anything at this stage.

Much appreciated

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 8:57pm

Good Name wrote: »

I agree this while situation could have been avoided if the men working in that box when I arrived applied common sense. I even showed them my iPhone and done a fresh search in front of them showing that on line it advises no ticket machine.

The guys were more interested in treating me like a criminal that use some common sense.

Called the station today and asked for a manager to see if someone can look at this from a common sense side but was told managers don't take calls.

I really have exhausted all options with these guys in Irish rail they don't respond or communicate in anyway. The only correspondence I have had is a generic e-mail that wasn't even addressed to me , I'm guessing they just copy and paste the same reply regardless of the situation

Why not pop into the RPU office at the top of the car park in Connolly while you are there?

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 8:57pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

You could have a look at the consumer protection act
Sections 38-40 (or thereabouts) outline the offense of misleading advertising which might be what happened here

In what way?

Good Name · 30-08-2013 9:02pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Why not pop into the RPU office at the top of the car park in Connolly while you are there?

That's actually a good shout , maybe if I present myself and my little book of evidence they might help me out.

I won't be in Dublin Connolly again until Kate next week , is that office located in the front or back or the station.

Thanks again

30-08-2013 9:09pm

I think you might have a case here. You were working off incorrect information and had no intention to defraud. If I were in your shoes I'd have my day in court.

GTE · 30-08-2013 9:11pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm missing something...

Op can get the train from Enfield, goes and buys a ticket in Connolly - no problem
Op gets the train from Kilcock, goes and and buys a ticket in Connolly = Fine

How do you not get a fine coming from Enfield - can you just get on at Kilcock and then say you want to buy a ticket for Enfield?

I am sure they thought the OP was trying to avoid the fare and then that the OP saw the ticket validators and conceded that he can not fool Irish Rail.

The utterly dumb thing about that is that a ticket fare avoider would probably be dishonest enough just to say they are coming from Enfield all the time if they got caught.

I remember having such problems with the people at Connolly about this when they had the ticket inspector on the actual train, about 6 years ago or more. If he was there, fine, I would get a ticket. If he wasn't for whatever reason or didn't get to us before he seemingly got off at Maynooth, the confrontations in Connolly would be guaranteed when I tried to get the ticket. After 3 or 4 times they recognised me but before hand it was just sheer arguing, calling for managers etc. Never fined though.

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 9:15pm

Good Name wrote: »

That's actually a good shout , maybe if I present myself and my little book of evidence they might help me out.

I won't be in Dublin Connolly again until Kate next week , is that office located in the front or back or the station.

Thanks again

Go out through the archway off platform 2 and the office is at the top of the car park. Just tell them how it was and nothing more.

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 9:26pm

Karsini wrote: »

I think you might have a case here. You were working off incorrect information and had no intention to defraud. If I were in your shoes I'd have my day in court.

Like i said earlier, you cant ignore a ticket machine and then say that the web site said that there wasnt one there so you didnt think it was a ticket machine so you ignored it. It wont work.
Claiming that you didnt see the machine wont work either.

If anyone presents themselves to purchase a ticket at the RPU box in Connolly or anywhere else then they should be sold a ticket and not fined. In my opinion they should only be fined if found to be on the train without a ticket by a travelling checker or better still be sold a ticket by that checker.

30-08-2013 9:32pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Like i said earlier, you cant ignore a ticket machine and then say that the web site said that there wasnt one there so you didnt think it was a ticket machine so you ignored it. It wont work.
Claiming that you didnt see the machine wont work either.

Well if an official source told me that there wasn't a ticket machine in the station then I wouldn't go out of my way to look for one. If I saw it, I'd use it.

Good Name · 30-08-2013 9:49pm

Karsini wrote: »

I think you might have a case here. You were working off incorrect information and had no intention to defraud. If I were in your shoes I'd have my day in court.

Thanks Karsini , like all I want from Irish rail is to apply some common sense here!

But if they don't ill take my chance in court , think it is crazy too that the only 2 choices they give you is pay or court! It a crazy world we live in

Losty Dublin · 30-08-2013 10:01pm

Good Name wrote: »

Thanks Karsini , like all I want from Irish rail is to apply some common sense here!

But if they don't ill take my chance in court , think it is crazy too that the only 2 choices they give you is pay or court! It a crazy world we live in

Have you still got the photos of the Ticket Machine on the platform, by any chance?

Good Name · 30-08-2013 10:14pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Have you still got the photos of the Ticket Machine on the platform, by any chance?

I do have them all on my memory card , also have the screen shots and e-mails etc since this incident took place. But Irish rail don't seem interested in reason

Good Name · 30-08-2013 10:19pm

Karsini wrote: »

Well if an official source told me that there wasn't a ticket machine in the station then I wouldn't go out of my way to look for one. If I saw it, I'd use it.

Exactly Karsini , if i saw it i would have used it.

For the other people the thing is I didn't ignore the machine it as per my mails the position of the machine is not in the direct path when you walk to and get on the train.

Bottom line is they advised there was no machine , there is no signs or anything at the station so unless you actually drove in and parked or came from the estate across the road you don't pass or see the machine , it is as simple as that!

Also I don't think you would walk around a train station looking for something that is not supposed to be there?

Good Name · 30-08-2013 10:23pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Like i said earlier, you cant ignore a ticket machine and then say that the web site said that there wasnt one there so you didnt think it was a ticket machine so you ignored it. It wont work.
Claiming that you didnt see the machine wont work either.

If anyone presents themselves to purchase a ticket at the RPU box in Connolly or anywhere else then they should be sold a ticket and not fined. In my opinion they should only be fined if found to be on the train without a ticket by a travelling checker or better still be sold a ticket by that checker.

I see your point re the machine but if you see where I entered the station etc you would see what I mean , also as I was not expecting a machine I didn't look or pass much thought about a machine

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 10:50pm

Good Name wrote: »

Thanks Karsini , like all I want from Irish rail is to apply some common sense here!

But if they don't ill take my chance in court , think it is crazy too that the only 2 choices they give you is pay or court! It a crazy world we live in

Whats the other option? Not pay?

foggy_lad · 30-08-2013 10:53pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Like i said earlier, you cant ignore a ticket machine and then say that the web site said that there wasnt one there so you didnt think it was a ticket machine so you ignored it. It wont work.
Claiming that you didnt see the machine wont work either.

Are you saying the op ignored the machine in an attempt to evade paying their fare?

THe machine is encased in a heavily graffitied metal box and the only way you can see the actual ticket machine is if you approach the entrance from the car park. If you approach on foot from the steps or the roadway you cant see the front of the metal box and have no view of the machine as the opening on the metal box faces the opposite direction! The op was told by Irish Rail that there was no machine which is them giving permission to board without a ticket.

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 10:55pm

Good Name wrote: »

I see your point re the machine but if you see where I entered the station etc you would see what I mean , also as I was not expecting a machine I didn't look or pass much thought about a machine

Where did you enter the station? Is there more than one way onto the platform?

Good Name · 30-08-2013 10:58pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Whats the other option? Not pay?

Well pay the fine or don't pay the fine and they will take you to court ....

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 10:58pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are you saying the op ignored the machine in an attempt to evade paying their fare?

THe machine is encased in a heavily graffitied metal box and the only way you can see the actual ticket machine is if you approach the entrance from the car park. The op was told by Irish Rail that there was no machine which is them giving permission to board without a ticket.

No.

Its not as if Kilcock is a big station now is it?

No it doesnt.

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 11:02pm

Good Name wrote: »

Well pay the fine or don't pay the fine and they will take you to court ....

Or talk nicely to them and it will get thrown out. Thats your third option.
Its worked for some in the past so go into them when you get a chance. Dont waste your time on e-mails or calls.

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 11:08pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are you saying the op ignored the machine in an attempt to evade paying their fare?

THe machine is encased in a heavily graffitied metal box and the only way you can see the actual ticket machine is if you approach the entrance from the car park. If you approach on foot from the steps or the roadway you cant see the front of the metal box and have no view of the machine as the opening on the metal box faces the opposite direction! he op was told by Irish Rail that there was no machine which is them giving permission to board without a ticket.

So if you saw some people standing at it would you think it was a paper stand or a coffee shop? or if you saw someone walking away from it with a ticket in their hand would you still dimiss it as a ticket machine?

foggy_lad · 30-08-2013 11:09pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No.

Its not as if Kilcock is a big station now is it?

No it doesnt.

It is not even a station, just a halt, and walking to the platform in the morning or whenever you dont go looking around at the infrastructure thinking "I wonder what is inside that dirty old graffiti covered metal box" especially when you have beeen told there is no ticket machine, you just walk onto the platform and wait for your train.

The op was told there was no way to buy a ticket at Kilcock station so proceeded according to the information received from the website.

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 11:13pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are you saying the op ignored the machine in an attempt to evade paying their fare?

THe machine is encased in a heavily graffitied metal box and the only way you can see the actual ticket machine is if you approach the entrance from the car park. If you approach on foot from the steps or the roadway you cant see the front of the metal box and have no view of the machine as the opening on the metal box faces the opposite direction! The op was told by Irish Rail that there was no machine which is them giving permission to board without a ticket.

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is not even a station, just a halt, and walking to the platform in the morning or whenever you dont go looking around at the infrastructure thinking "I wonder what is inside that dirty old graffiti covered metal box" especially when you have beeen told there is no ticket machine, you just walk onto the platform and wait for your train.

The op was told there was no way to buy a ticket at Kilcock station so proceeded according to the information received from the website and confirmed by staff!

Confirmed by which staff Foggy?

foggy_lad · 30-08-2013 11:15pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So if you saw some people standing at it would you think it was a paper stand or a coffee shop? or if you saw someone walking away from it with a ticket in their hand would you still dimiss it as a ticket machine?

Are you saying now that there were people queuing up at the machine when the OP was walking past?

Even if the OP had to climb over the machine the fact that they were told there was no machine in Kilcock gave the the required permission to buy their ticket on the train or in Connolly.

foggy_lad · 30-08-2013 11:16pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Confirmed by which staff Foggy?

my mistake, post edited.

Hilly Bill · 30-08-2013 11:20pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are you saying now that there were people queuing up at the machine when the OP was walking past?

Even if the OP had to climb over the machine the fact that they were told there was no machine in Kilcock gave the the required permission to buy their ticket on the train or in Connolly.

Ah here Foggy, seriously?

Good Name · 30-08-2013 11:35pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is not even a station, just a halt, and walking to the platform in the morning or whenever you dont go looking around at the infrastructure thinking "I wonder what is inside that dirty old graffiti covered metal box" especially when you have beeen told there is no ticket machine, you just walk onto the platform and wait for your train.

The op was told there was no way to buy a ticket at Kilcock station so proceeded according to the information received from the website.

Exactly it's not as if I decided to go do a full recon mission before getting the train ? I got to the station got the train end if story! Ther was no Q of people or flashing lights saying get a ticket here! The fact is I wasn't expecting a machine there so I didn't think to look for one

Is it so hard to grasp that I do this when I travel from Enfield so why would I think it strange I can do it from a station just up the road !!!

Fred Swanson · 30-08-2013 11:36pm

This post has been deleted.

foggy_lad · 30-08-2013 11:38pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ah here Foggy, seriously?

absolutely serious, the information on the website is the same as being told by a ticket clerk/station staff to board the train without a ticket.

Irish Rail Fines / Court

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