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The Witch Children of Nigeria

  • 13-11-2008 5:30pm
    #1
    Gandalf23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭


    I'm a hardened old fecker, but I have to admit I was moved by the C4 Dispatches show last night about the witch children in Nigeria. Linky.

    I am struggling to understand how any human parent could disown a child (as young as 3 months !!!!!!) for being a witch. One guy threatened to hack a 4 year old to death if the child was returned to the village.

    Whats worse are the preachers and "prophets" who call these poor children witches.

    Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone saw the show or has any comments.


Comments

  • #2
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Only caught the end of it. Its pretty messed up, but lets be honest, the Human race in general is capable of some really messed up crap. I really wish, I could say I was surprised, but there really are no depths that humanity, will not sink to.

    Don't ge me wrong, Human are capable of doing great things, but we are equally capable of some really messed up stuff as well.


  • #3
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Switched it off halfway through programme .Sickening stuff .


  • #4
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Cue a flood of "what do you expect from the Nigerians?" comments...

    And to be fair, a few "it's their culture, leave them alone" comments also...


  • #5
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Dudess wrote: »
    Cue a flood of "what do you expect from the Nigerians?" comments...

    And to be fair, a few "it's their culture, leave them alone" comments also...
    But...surely you accept that "culture" or "tradition" are perfectly acceptable excuses reasons for any sort of barbaric act...no?


  • #6
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Dudess wrote: »
    Cue a flood of "what do you expect from the Nigerians?" comments...

    And to be fair, a few "it's their culture, leave them alone" comments also...

    It's part of my culture to defend people who mutilate and kill children's actions. Leave us alone.


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  • #7
    JohnGalt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭JohnGalt


    Dudess wrote: »
    Cue a flood of "what do you expect from the Nigerians?" comments...

    And to be fair, a few "it's their culture, leave them alone" comments also...

    Agreed, and I would like to echo your "what do you expect" remark. What do you expect.

    Also:

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055418662


  • #8
    Gandalf23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Gandalf23


    Dudess wrote: »
    Cue a flood of "what do you expect from the Nigerians?" comments...

    And to be fair, a few "it's their culture, leave them alone" comments also...

    I'm not sure what you mean Dudess. Do you have an opinion on this?


  • #9
    Wagon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭Wagon


    Nothing new, people have been religion as a weapon for hundreds of year for their own personal gain. But to be fair I can't judge. if you leave me in a room with one of those pastors for an hour, I'll sink to his level.


  • #10
    Karoma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭Karoma


    JohnGalt wrote: »
    Agreed, and I would like to echo your "what do you expect" remark. What do you expect.

    Also:

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055418662

    Excuse you?


  • #11
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭carveone


    This happens in the UK too by the way. Victoria Climbié in 2000 was the most (in)famous example of this kind of abuse. I see this as basically about preying on the unfortunate and gullible to make a pile of cash. Hell, it wasn't long ago in this country that someone in a position of power could do damn near anything and defend it with some sort of religious claptrap...


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  • #12
    Kinetic^
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,249 ✭✭✭✭Kinetic^


    Dudess wrote: »
    Cue a flood of "what do you expect from the Nigerians?" comments...

    And to be fair, a few "it's their culture, leave them alone" comments also...

    WITCH! GET OUT!


  • #13
    Nerin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    You don't have to look as Far as africa for this kind of thing. Look at the dhampirs in eastern europe. Wasn't it only a few years ago some girls were killed in a village in romania for being vampires.


  • #14
    karen3212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 668 ✭✭✭karen3212


    I can't read or see the link. But yes I can understand that people are so afraid of worse things happening that they will let a child out to die. I mean they may fear for the rest of their children or something, or terrible strange things happening to them if they don't go along with the old superstitions.

    Didn't people leave their youngest children to die in dire situations in history, I can only imagine that they knew they had less awareness of life and wouldn't suffer as much as an older child.


  • #15
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Their culture is inferior to ours. Stupid bloody minded mystic supernatural-fearing crap.


  • #16
    Adam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,866 ✭✭✭Adam


    yeah seriously. our churches never killed anyone under ridiculous pretenses! ......right??


  • #17
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    carveone wrote: »
    This happens in the UK too by the way. Victoria Climbié in 2000 was the most (in)famous example of this kind of abuse.
    And the little guy whose severed body was found in the Thames: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/03/1057179093929.html
    The Victoria Climbie case was horrific.
    Gandalf23 wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you mean Dudess. Do you have an opinion on this?
    Obviously not very familiar with After Hours...


  • #18
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭carveone


    Zillah wrote: »
    Their culture is inferior to ours. Stupid bloody minded mystic supernatural-fearing crap.

    And look at the US. There was a whole bunch of Christian groups who went completely nuts when Harry Potter was first published. They limited their activity to book bannings and burnings and denouncings and active campaigns etc. All within the law and civilised. But I think we'd be deluding ourselves if we believed that the Civilised Society, the Law, the Police and Severe Asspounding Jailtime don't act as a major shield. Given half a chance, even in the US, there would be people bannings and burnings and denouncings. Many books and episodes of the Scary Door, sorry, The Twilight Zone have been dedicated to how fine the line is ...


  • #19
    Nerin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    karen3212 wrote: »
    I can't read or see the link. But yes I can understand that people are so afraid of worse things happening that they will let a child out to die. I mean they may fear for the rest of their children or something, or terrible strange things happening to them if they don't go along with the old superstitions.

    Didn't people leave their youngest children to die in dire situations in history, I can only imagine that they knew they had less awareness of life and wouldn't suffer as much as an older child.
    features heavily in greek mythology.
    kind of a cop out "i didnt kill my child, the gods didnt save them, hence, the gods killed him"
    Zillah wrote: »
    Their culture is inferior to ours. Stupid bloody minded mystic supernatural-fearing crap.
    i'd tend to say their culture sucks, but so does ours. only while they are killing children for supernatural reasons, we're killing them through bureaucracy.
    Mirror wrote: »
    yeah seriously. our churches never killed anyone under ridiculous pretenses! ......right??
    ....i wont burst your bubble petal, pagan and christian folk in ireland never killed anyone for silly reasons....honest:p
    Dudess wrote: »
    Obviously not very familiar with After Hours...
    bit of a snide response dudess?
    ;) (i kid i kid *runs*)


  • #20
    tony1kenobi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭tony1kenobi


    Nerin wrote: »
    You don't have to look as Far as africa for this kind of thing. Look at the dhampirs in eastern europe. Wasn't it only a few years ago some girls were killed in a village in romania for being vampires.


    Yea but vampires drink human blood...you have to kill them.


  • #21
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Nerin wrote: »
    bit of a snide response dudess?
    ;) (i kid i kid *runs*)
    :D

    Gandalf23, my comment referred to the way Nigerians and other groups can get an awful doing on After Hours... and then I made reference to the fact that there's also the occasional naive, deluded bleeding heart.


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  • #22
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭carveone


    Nerin wrote: »
    features heavily in greek mythology.
    kind of a cop out "i didnt kill my child, the gods didnt save them, hence, the gods killed him"

    As an asides, I was attempting to read the Bible yesterday (it was on my parents bookshelf). Kings and Job. Man, what you said above there is just all over the place. Servants and children, especially eldest males, get a pretty hard time of it. Essentially sacrificing your kids as burnt offerings to win this war or that features heavily in Kings. Job comes down to:
    - Job is doing well, lots of money, servants, 10 kids, loves God
    - God destroys (well, lets Satan destroy) everything he is. Adds boils and sores. Drops house on kids.
    - Job bitches for many many many many tedious pages but still loves God.
    - God gives him all his stuff back. Job has more kids to replace the first lot. Everything dandy. Kids and servants don't seem to feature as any sort of issue. "Hi, can I have my kids back?"...

    Damn. What was my point again. I think it was that you can use the Bible to justify lots of pretty grim things. Combine that with general African superstition and you've got some pretty hefty leverage to make terrified people pay you money.


  • #23
    oeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    carveone wrote: »
    As an asides, I was attempting to read the Bible yesterday (it was on my parents bookshelf). Kings and Job. Man, what you said above there is just all over the place. Servants and children, especially eldest males, get a pretty hard time of it. Essentially sacrificing your kids as burnt offerings to win this war or that features heavily in Kings. Job comes down to:
    - Job is doing well, lots of money, servants, 10 kids, loves God
    - God destroys (well, lets Satan destroy) everything he is. Adds boils and sores. Drops house on kids.
    - Job bitches for many many many many tedious pages but still loves God.
    - God gives him all his stuff back. Job has more kids to replace the first lot. Everything dandy. Kids and servants don't seem to feature as any sort of issue. "Hi, can I have my kids back?"...

    Damn. What was my point again. I think it was that you can use the Bible to justify lots of pretty grim things. Combine that with general African superstition and you've got some pretty hefty leverage to make terrified people pay you money.

    Speaking of the Bible, have you read to story of Lot in Genesis yet? Now that's one fecked up story.
    Angels come to rescue Lot from living near Sodom (God is going to destroy that city).
    The Sodomites decide to rape the angels.
    Lot says, 'no, rape my virgin daughters instead', sodomites say 'no thx, we want some angels' (Angels were all male, I believe this is where the term 'to sodomize', meaning anal sex, comes from)
    Lot is told to run away with his family and not look back. His missus looks back so the angels turn her into a pillar of salt.
    Lot and his daughters hide in a cave, the daughters get the idea that they are the last people left alive on earth.
    The decide to restart humanity, so they get their dad drunk and ummm. Repopulate.


  • #24
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    JohnGalt wrote: »
    Agreed, and I would like to echo your "what do you expect" remark. What do you expect.

    Also:

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055418662

    what has this story got to do with escaped monkey?

    I ask because i assume you just wouldnt be dumb enough to make the Black people = Monkey comment.. comming from "lets have a riot" finglas


  • #25
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The same things happened here only they were accused of being Changelings.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_Cleary


  • #26
    Nerin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    wiki wrote:
    Bridget Cleary's burnt corpse was found in a shallow grave on 22 March, nine people had been charged in her disappearance, including her husband. A coroner's inquest the next day returned a verdict of death by burning.
    genius irish coroners :p


  • #27
    'Ol Jack Chance
    Closed Accounts Posts: 337 ✭✭'Ol Jack Chance


    whoa whoa whoa...whoa! Witches vampires and changlings are real now?/lights torch and gathers angry mob


  • #28
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭carveone


    oeb wrote: »
    Speaking of the Bible, have you read to story of Lot in Genesis yet?

    I found it rather hard to read. And The Simpsons was on. I do remember the story from when I was a kid. Hell, there should be a boards.ie translation of the bible - your 6 lines probably cover 50 pages. Would save an awful lot of reading about girding of loins...

    Anyway, this isn't really off topic as such. It just indicates where some of these interactions come from. As Thaeyd suggests, the Faeries and Changelings lore was evidently a powerful one and formed an undercurrent to apparantly Christian social order. Enough to get people killed when some thought they could get away with it. In the event, Michael Cleary (only) got 15 years for manslaughter. It could be argued that the case did not help Ireland's case for "ability to self-govern"...
    Nerin wrote:
    genius irish coroners

    Well, it would be "death by burning" as opposed to death by, say, strangulation and then burning. Would have been quite a feat in 1895 to tell the difference....


  • #29
    oeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    carveone wrote: »
    I found it rather hard to read. And The Simpsons was on. I do remember the story from when I was a kid. Hell, there should be a boards.ie translation of the bible - your 6 lines probably cover 50 pages. Would save an awful lot of reading about girding of loins...

    Anyway, this isn't really off topic as such. It just indicates where some of these interactions come from. As Thaeyd suggests, the Faeries and Changelings lore was evidently a powerful one and formed an undercurrent to apparantly Christian social order. Enough to get people killed when some thought they could get away with it. In the event, Michael Cleary (only) got 15 years for manslaughter. It could be argued that the case did not help Ireland's case for "ability to self-govern"...

    Weather you agree with the contents or not (I don't), or you believe it was written by/influenced by a divine creator (I don't), I think it is pretty safe to say that quite alot of it is more than 2000 years old. Alot of ancient stuff like that (especially stuff that has been translated) is quite difficult to read.

    The belief in the supernatural, be it a divine creator, or possessions etc is responsible for an awful lot of death. Even keeping aside the likes of the twin towers etc, a quick google of 'god told kill' returned some of the following.

    http://crime.about.com/b/2004/12/13/god-told-him-to-kill-parents.htm
    http://www.davidcogswell.com/MediaRoulette/GodTold.html
    http://allphilosophy.com/topic/1908
    http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/christian/TCNHM58VUR4M0FGGM

    And interestingly enough, this amusing blog post : http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/3582


  • #30
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Gandalf23 wrote: »
    I am struggling to understand how any human parent could disown a child (as young as 3 months !!!!!!) for being a witch. One guy threatened to hack a 4 year old to death if the child was returned to the village.

    Hopefully they were allowed back after a spell?


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  • #31
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Mirror wrote: »
    yeah seriously. our churches never killed anyone under ridiculous pretenses! ......right??

    I'm sorry, you must have misread "our culture" as "medieval culture". Sorry for the confusion.
    carveone wrote: »
    And look at the US. There was a whole bunch of Christian groups who went completely nuts when Harry Potter was first published. They limited their activity to book bannings and burnings and denouncings and active campaigns etc. All within the law and civilised. But I think we'd be deluding ourselves if we believed that the Civilised Society, the Law, the Police and Severe Asspounding Jailtime don't act as a major shield. Given half a chance, even in the US, there would be people bannings and burnings and denouncings. Many books and episodes of the Scary Door, sorry, The Twilight Zone have been dedicated to how fine the line is ...

    I'm sorry, you must have misread "our culture" as "hypothetical worst case scenario American culture". Sorry for the confusion.


  • #32
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Seems African kids are either doomed to be be born with the adis virus, child soldiers who will kill other kids ( as in the rawandan massacre ) ,be tainted as witch children, or die of starvation .

    Or possibly all above .


  • #33
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭carveone


    Zillah wrote: »
    I'm sorry, you must have misread "our culture" as "hypothetical worst case scenario American culture". Sorry for the confusion.

    Fair enough. I wasn't really disagreeing with you about the bloody minded mystic supernatural-fearing crap. I was saying that any tendencies to do this in the west have been penalised so heavily for so long that social culture has caught up. Now we just post on the internet :)


  • #34
    Acacia
    Registered Users Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭Acacia


    I watched it, it was fcuking horrific. The final scene was almost unbearable to watch.

    The bit where they interviewed the most influential prophetess in Nigeria, the one who made all the propaganda videos, made my blood boil. She's making money off the backs of vulnerable kids, and poor communities. And she had the cheek to say the documentary crew were being 'racist' by questioning the whole practice. What a load of me hole. It's not racism, it's disgust at an appalling and out-dated belief system.

    Mind you, Ireland virtually had state-sponsored child abuse under the guise of religion up until recently.
    JohnGalt wrote: »
    Agreed, and I would like to echo your "what do you expect" remark. What do you expect.

    Also:

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055418662

    That thread is also a load of rubbish.


  • #35
    oleras
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,724 ✭✭✭oleras


    latchyco wrote: »
    Seems African kids are either doomed to be be born with the adis virus, child soldiers who will kill other kids ( as in the rawandan massacre ) ,be tainted as witch children, or die of starvation .

    Or possibly all above .

    Add to that being born female and looking forward to female circumcision.......happy days indeed !!


  • #36
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    oeb wrote: »
    Weather you agree with the contents or not (I don't), or you believe it was written by/influenced by a divine creator (I don't), I think it is pretty safe to say that quite alot of it is more than 2000 years old.
    Surprisingly enough, the new testament is almost all newer than that. In particular the tales of the "apocalyse" were chosen from hundreds of different apocalyse stories going around hundreds of years after christ, in the mayhem during the collapse of the Roman empire, which is why the thing reads like it was written by someone on a five week coke bender (it probably was).

    And this is the text that countless generations have spent their lives trying to interpret, and a good swathe of the religious right in the US want to see happen.


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  • #37
    TPD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭TPD


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Surprisingly enough, the new testament is almost all newer than that. In particular the tales of the "apocalyse" were chosen from hundreds of different apocalyse stories going around hundreds of years after christ, in the mayhem during the collapse of the Roman empire, which is why the thing reads like it was written by someone on a five week coke bender (it probably was).

    And this is the text that countless generations have spent their lives trying to interpret, and a good swathe of the religious right in the US want to see happen.

    The new testament deals with the stuff after Jesus was born, doesn't it? Would need to be newer than 2000 years old, or else thered be one huge continuity error. It's the Old Testament thats the scary stuff.


  • #38
    MIN2511
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,398 ✭✭✭MIN2511


    A topic close to my heart.....

    Children with autism are sometimes referred to as witches.

    My cousin, was born very healthy. At 3, he woke up one night screamed and thats the last time he spoke.
    My aunt and her husband spent so much money travelling to see specialist to no avail. Frustration drove my aunt's husband and he took my cousin to one of them pentecostal churches. They treated my cousin really badly, extorted money from my aunt.

    My aunt is now divorced because of this, and my cousin is 18 now and he still doesn't talk.

    That said, Africans are very religious the need to believe in a religion and follow the ways of that religion can sometimes be very dangerous.

    Previously, if a woman had twins she and the kids would be murdered. Actually to a certain degree that still happens; this time they kill just the twins and not the mothers.

    It's unfortunate that no matter how educated some people are they still believe in traditions that are very ridiculous when you think about it.


  • #39
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    TPD wrote: »
    The new testament deals with the stuff after Jesus was born, doesn't it? Would need to be newer than 2000 years old, or else thered be one huge continuity error.
    Yeah but hundreds of years after? Lets not forget they didn't have a whole lot in the way of literary archives back then either, it was mostly word of mouth. As to how the apocalypse was selected from the many of the time, I reckon it was a case of "most useful".
    TPD wrote: »
    It's the Old Testament thats the scary stuff.
    Not as scary as some mushroom fiend's hallucinations being the object of worship for millions of the faithful (some with access to nukes) imho! Ah the list is endless - you know that traditional image of Jesus on the cross? Thats Cesare Borgia, medieval Italian princeling and all round bad egg you've been doffing your cap to. I used to care about the amount of time wasted on these things, but at this stage I've a live and let live attitude. People will do their thing anyway, you may as well let them, and educate those you can as you go.

    EDIT: Except where people are being hurt, so lets stamp out that with a hobnailed boot.


  • #40
    Gyalist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    oeb wrote: »
    Speaking of the Bible, have you read to story of Lot in Genesis yet? Now that's one fecked up story.
    Angels come to rescue Lot from living near Sodom (God is going to destroy that city).
    The Sodomites decide to rape the angels.
    Lot says, 'no, rape my virgin daughters instead', sodomites say 'no thx, we want some angels' (Angels were all male, I believe this is where the term 'to sodomize', meaning anal sex, comes from)
    Lot is told to run away with his family and not look back. His missus looks back so the angels turn her into a pillar of salt.
    Lot and his daughters hide in a cave, the daughters get the idea that they are the last people left alive on earth.
    The decide to restart humanity, so they get their dad drunk and ummm. Repopulate.
    carveone wrote: »
    I found it rather hard to read. And The Simpsons was on. I do remember the story from when I was a kid. Hell, there should be a boards.ie translation of the bible - your 6 lines probably cover 50 pages. Would save an awful lot of reading about girding of loins...

    No need for a boards.ie translation when there already is a LOLCat Bible.


  • #41
    EamonnKeane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 950 ✭✭✭EamonnKeane


    latchyco wrote: »
    Seems African kids are either doomed to be be born with the adis virus, child soldiers who will kill other kids ( as in the rawandan massacre ) ,be tainted as witch children, or die of starvation .

    Or possibly all above .
    You watch too much TV.


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  • #42
    oeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    For the record, by 'alot of it' I was including the OT in that too.


  • #43
    Varkov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭Varkov


    Personally, I think they probably are witches. Or Canadians.


  • #44
    Cunny-Funt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Cunny-Funt


    Religion strikes again:mad:


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