Mechanic - Does this smell a bit off?

Raiser · 20-10-2011 4:12pm #1

Car cuts out occasionally, starts after 4-5 attempts on hard shoulder and off I go again.

Always seems to be fine from a cold start - actually without exception.

- Brought it to local Garage - 3 Polish Lads. Yer man first of all says he'd hook it up to computer - which is what I wanted to end the aimless speculation (on my part) - Instead he opts for sitting in drivers seat and suddenly he can't start it after 20+ attempts - Which it has never ever taken previously?

At this point I notice he has his Cowboy boot (not a slur on him, actual Cowboy boots) on the accelerator pedal - Would that be an attempt to flood it and aim to up the ante? I know if car is flooded you can sometimes restart it by flooring and holding the pedal is that right?

So without the computer he reckons he'll have to take out the immobiliser and its going to take 2 days work and cost me €300.

- I'd imagine with a Haynes manual and bit of digging anyone willing to have an auld punt would rip out the immobiliser and complete the ignition circuit in 30-45 minutes? Also the cynic in me would wonder if my immobiliser would then get fitted elsewhere and make another nice profit - But maybe thats a mad notion.

So I made my excuses and left - Started the car easily on 2nd or 3rd attempt with my foot off the accelerator and off I go?

So am looking for opinions on whether these folks are taking the piss or am I being unfair - also if anyone has any advice re. possible causes I'd be grateful to hear them.......

P.S. One thing I was going to do was buy new plugs and fire them in - worth doing?

MacGyver · 20-10-2011 4:17pm

make, model, year, mileage etc?

Tazio · 20-10-2011 4:18pm

Whats the Make/Model/Year/Fuel-Engine type?

Also, is this car regularly services and looked after?

20-10-2011 4:21pm

Raiser wrote: »

...................

- I'd imagine with a Haynes manual and bit of digging anyone willing to have an auld punt would rip out the immobiliser and complete the ignition circuit in 30-45 minutes? .................

Doubt it.

Raiser · 20-10-2011 4:23pm

Sorry Folks.

June 2000
Honda Accord
VTEC 1850 CC's Petrol
Mileage is 148K

Is prob overdue a service allright - Usually just do plugs, oil/oil filter & air Filter myself.

Main Honda Dealer replaced the fuel filter around 2 years ago - At least he billed me for it anyhow. So say 20,000 miles ago approx......

- Thought it was unlikely to be plugs as when it does run its perfectly smooth and powerful and ecomomy is unaffected etc.

Would lash is a set of plugs some dark and rainy evening if I thought it had a chance of solving this!

RoverJames wrote: »

Doubt it.

When I was writing the above post I was trying to reserve a bit of my cynicism because although I am trying and learning the odd bit about car DIY I'd have to admit in fairness that I know fcuk all ;-)

pudzey101 · 20-10-2011 4:39pm

try cleaning the spark plugs:) leave them soak in petrol for 5mins then set the tip on fire and you'l see al the black smoke which is dirt dissaperaing:) then clean them with a rag and put back in

langdang · 20-10-2011 4:54pm

This used to happen an accord I know of (same model, at similar mileage) - pretty frightening in the middle of an overtake manoeuvre! There was a recall on a relay in the ignition circuit of these cars, check if your's was done (ring whatever Honda dealer it was registered in first day). If the recall only applied to certain batches, I'd still consider this as a place to start.

Raiser · 20-10-2011 5:02pm

pudzey101 wrote: »

try cleaning the spark plugs:) leave them soak in petrol for 5mins then set the tip on fire and you'l see al the black smoke which is dirt dissaperaing:) then clean them with a rag and put back in

Actually found 3 new ones in the Garage - Might polish up the cleanest looking one of whats currently in there add the 3 new ones and retest!

langdang wrote: »

This used to happen an accord I know of (same model, at similar mileage) - pretty frightening in the middle of an overtake manoeuvre! There was a recall on a relay in the ignition circuit of these cars, check if your's was done (ring whatever Honda dealer it was registered in first day). If the recall only applied to certain batches, I'd still consider this as a place to start.

Car was first registered in Bristol in June 2000 - Not sure if I'd have much luck - or even a starting point?

- Would the diagnostic code on this be too general to pinpoint down to a dud relay? Are they just wildly general - like "code error 189 ignition system fault"

Would a good auto electrician be worth a shot? Can they troubleshoot these things.....?

si_guru · 20-10-2011 5:09pm

Did you Google it? there is loads of info on the net.

http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/1999-honda-accord-electrical-shuts-off-when-driving-27336.html

CiniO · 20-10-2011 5:11pm

Raiser wrote: »

- Brought it to local Garage - 3 Polish Lads.

Could you PM me with info what garage was it?
Address or sth?

langdang · 20-10-2011 5:15pm

Raiser wrote: »

Car was first registered in Bristol in June 2000 - Not sure if I'd have much luck - or even a starting point?

- Would the diagnostic code on this be too general to pinpoint down to a dud relay? Are they just wildly general - like "code error 189 ignition system fault"

Would a good auto electrician be worth a shot? Can they troubleshoot these things.....?

Try your local dealer, I find the guys in John Moloney's helpful (stores guy is anyway).

No code from this I'd say, to the car it would just look like you turned the car off and the diagnostics would be basic enough in that model accord anyway.

Doubt it's very expensive* (should be details on the net of the specific relay that causes the issue) so they'll probably just replace it rather than troubleshooting it. If the problem is still there after then a proper troubleshooting is needed.

(I'm no expert, so feel free to seek corroboration on this info!)

*Actually, now that I think of it, Johnson & Perrott sorted it for free for the fella I know, as it would have been recalled if they had been able to contact the owner at the time of the recall.

Raiser · 20-10-2011 5:15pm

CiniO wrote: »

Could you PM me with info what garage was it?
Address or sth?

Why? Not sure that it would be fair on them since the tone of my opening post was a little bit cynical......

Whats your own opinion on the €300 and 2 full days work?

si_guru wrote: »

Did you Google it? there is loads of info on the net.

http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/1999-honda-accord-electrical-shuts-off-when-driving-27336.html

Thats a US Site - I've never been sure what parts are common/vary between the continents etc. But appreciate your point.

langdang wrote: »

Try your local dealer, I find the guys in John Moloney's helpful (stores guy is anyway).

No code from this I'd say, to the car it would just look like you turned the car off and the diagnostics would be basic enough in that model accord anyway.

Doubt it's very expensive (should be details on the net of the specific relay that causes the issue) so they'll probably just replace it rather than troubleshooting it. If the problem is still there after then a proper troubleshooting is needed.

(I'm no expert, so feel free to seek corroboration on this info!)

I'll give Moloneys a shout, if I'm lucky they'll have an idea if this as a common fault etc?

CiniO · 20-10-2011 6:00pm

Raiser wrote: »

Why? Not sure that it would be fair on them since the tone of my opening post was a little bit cynical......

Whats your own opinion on the €300 and 2 full days work?

I really don't know about €300 and 2 days work. With car electrics it's really hard to say unless you know exactly what is wrong.
Anyway - I would call it suspicious without even connecting your car the the computer.

Reason I asked what garage was it, as I know some Polish lads which have their garage in Limerick. Just wanted to find out if it was them.

20-10-2011 7:18pm

It won't be the spark plugs, also I'm all for auto sparks but not for ignition issue, I'd get a decent garage to have a look at it first. I would also be slow to think it's the immobiliser.

MugMugs · 20-10-2011 7:35pm

Isn't that motor not fly by wire? Can you flood the engine like that with FBW?

couldntthink · 20-10-2011 8:35pm

When it cuts out does the engine just cut out or do the lights on the dash also go off. I would say there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that it's the immobiliser. And anyone who starts out suggesting to "remove" things like this is not up to scratch. Bring it to a proper garage. Basics first. When you're trying to re start does it get spark, does it get fuel? Cleaning your plugs will not fix this issue, dirty plugs are a symptom, not a cause.

bbsrs · 20-10-2011 8:46pm

Raiser wrote: »

Sorry Folks.

June 2000
Honda Accord
VTEC 1850 CC's Petrol
Mileage is 148K

I am trying and learning the odd bit about car DIY I'd have to admit in fairness that I know fcuk all ;-)

Change the ignition switch easy job to practice your diy and its most probably the solution and if not its one thing ruled out , common fault for that year and model with your symptoms.

Buy a switch and a haynes manual for your model .

langdang · 20-10-2011 9:10pm

MugMugs wrote: »

Isn't that motor not fly by wire? Can you flood the engine like that with FBW?

maybe FBW from 02 on, or whenever the model changed. But 98-02 model is good ol cable I'd imagine.

bimble · 20-10-2011 9:59pm

Has the battery and terminals, alternator and wiring been checked especially the earth ( negative) lead from battery to the body. If you have a gut feeling about that garage , stay away you did the right thing. Is there any decent garages anymore that aint out to rip you off

johnayo · 20-10-2011 10:05pm

RoverJames wrote: »

Doubt it.

+1 To that.

ZENER · 20-10-2011 10:12pm

You mention that the car starts fine from cold, is that still true ? Has it ever failed to start from cold where it was left in the sun or after a drive where the cabin would have warmed up ?

The Honda PGM-Fi ignition system used an ECU main relay to provide power to the Fuel pump and the Distributor. The "relay" is in fact 2 relays in a single housing mounted under the steering wheel. In older cars the solder joints around the contacts would go "dry" making the connection intermittent causing the problem you're experiencing. The car wont throw a code as it isn't something the ECU can see. A few minutes and a soldering iron can fix this if it is in fact the problem. It's a well known issue with PGM-Fi systems from 1989 to 2002.

Turn the key slowly to the IGN position and listen carefully for a humming noise from the location of the fuel tank when the fault is present. If you can't hear it then there is a good chance this relay is faulty. If you can hear the humm then remove one of the spark plugs, attach it's HT lead and lay it on a good ground/bare metal within the engine bay. Try to start the car and look for spark from the plug. Do this when the fault occurs again next time.

Ken

2 stroke · 20-10-2011 10:35pm

You may need spark plugs but its not the cause of your car cutting out. A single cylinder engine could cut out above a certain temp because of a faulty plug but four plugs would not suffer the exact same fault.
Next time it cuts out try removing the key, lock and unlock the car and then see if it restarts on first try. If this works and you find out why, let me know.

Fishtits · 21-10-2011 12:23am

try cleaning the spark plugs leave them soak in petrol for 5mins then set the tip on fire and you'l see al the black smoke which is dirt dissaperaing then clean them with a rag and put back in

Pudzey, I haven't laughed as much in years - you're a star!

PS you weren't serious btw?

pudzey101 · 21-10-2011 1:56am

Fishtits wrote: »

Pudzey, I haven't laughed as much in years - you're a star!

PS you weren't serious btw?

yup i was, when you set it alight it burns the oil products on it:)also use
steel wool to take any burn marks and ruff edges:)
better than goin off payin upto 20quid a plug like a noob haha

21-10-2011 9:16am

pudzey101 wrote: »

yup i was, when you set it alight it burns the oil products on it:)also use
steel wool to take any burn marks and ruff edges:)
better than goin off payin upto 20quid a plug like a noob haha

You'd get a set of plugs for a 00 Accord for under €30 in Halfords Pudz

What makes you think there'd be oil products on the plugs? Rare enough to see that really. The plugs have sfa to do with the issue on this Accord.

pudzey101 · 21-10-2011 11:45am

RoverJames wrote: »

You'd get a set of plugs for a 00 Accord for under €30 in Halfords Pudz
What makes you think there'd be oil products on the plugs? Rare enough to see that really. The plugs have sfa to do with the issue on this Accord.

are they that cheap:o the long life yokes in my car r 20 quid each:) i must a read the question wrong haha:)

Raiser · 24-10-2011 11:14am

bbsrs wrote: »

Change the ignition switch easy job to practice your diy and its most probably the solution and if not its one thing ruled out , common fault for that year and model with your symptoms.

Buy a switch and a haynes manual for your model .

Thanks for this - Have noticed some black insulation tape on Distributor - Think it might be a plan to unravel that now and dry it out inspect what lies beneath?

bimble wrote: »

Has the battery and terminals, alternator and wiring been checked especially the earth ( negative) lead from battery to the body. If you have a gut feeling about that garage , stay away you did the right thing. Is there any decent garages anymore that aint out to rip you off

Yeah - The Garage was in <snip> by the way - Should be easy enough to work out who they were and for the record all I did was describe in detail their response to my query as a customer - So let them reap their own deserved rewards :rolleyes:

ZENER wrote: »

You mention that the car starts fine from cold, is that still true ? Has it ever failed to start from cold where it was left in the sun or after a drive where the cabin would have warmed up ?

The Honda PGM-Fi ignition system used an ECU main relay to provide power to the Fuel pump and the Distributor. The "relay" is in fact 2 relays in a single housing mounted under the steering wheel. In older cars the solder joints around the contacts would go "dry" making the connection intermittent causing the problem you're experiencing. The car wont throw a code as it isn't something the ECU can see. A few minutes and a soldering iron can fix this if it is in fact the problem. It's a well known issue with PGM-Fi systems from 1989 to 2002.

Turn the key slowly to the IGN position and listen carefully for a humming noise from the location of the fuel tank when the fault is present. If you can't hear it then there is a good chance this relay is faulty. If you can hear the humm then remove one of the spark plugs, attach it's HT lead and lay it on a good ground/bare metal within the engine bay. Try to start the car and look for spark from the plug. Do this when the fault occurs again next time.

Ken

Thanks for this - Just waiting for it to act up again now so I can test!

2 stroke wrote: »

You may need spark plugs but its not the cause of your car cutting out. A single cylinder engine could cut out above a certain temp because of a faulty plug but four plugs would not suffer the exact same fault.
Next time it cuts out try removing the key, lock and unlock the car and then see if it restarts on first try. If this works and you find out why, let me know.

Will do - Thanks for the help!

Mechanic - Does this smell a bit off?

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