Greens criticise freight rail closure

Navan Junction · 01-09-2006 8:19am #1

Irish Times, 01/09/2006

The Green Party has said the closure of the Guinness freight rail is further proof of the Government's failure to plan an adequate transport system.

The last Guinness freight train will leave Dublin's Heuston Station tonight, and arrive in Cork early on Saturday. From next week Guinness will be transported by road and the freight line will then be handed over for use by passenger trains.

CSO figures released yesterday show the volume of goods transported by road has increased 256 per cent in the last decade, with road haulage now accounting for the transport of 99 percent of Irish goods.

The Green Party says the shift away from freight trains is detrimental to road safety and the environment, with road transport needing four to seven times more energy than rail.

"The departure of the last Guinness freight train is a landmark in what has been a long, slow process of withdrawal from freight trains," says Green Party transport spokesman Eamon Ryan.

MarkoP11 · 01-09-2006 10:03am

Diageo got a cheaper deal from a road haulier following a normal tendering proceedure

In the absence of state aid all rail freight must make a operating profit

loyatemu · 01-09-2006 11:23am

Navan Junction wrote:

From next week Guinness will be transported by road and the freight line will then be handed over for use by passenger trains.

what freight line are they talking about here?

bryanw · 01-09-2006 11:27am

This is rubbish really... Diageo made their own decision to use the roads. Its more flexible. The railways don't go everywhere, even the freight only ones.

How many pubs are there in Ireland...? A lot! What about all the pubs in counties with no railways? They can take the goods as far as the railway goes but then they have to use the road the rest of the way.

If it was up to the Green Party, we'd all be on bikes and live in Abwood Homes... and we'd all be smelly because we wouldn't have enough hot water to have a shower!

markf909 · 01-09-2006 11:27am

loyatemu wrote:

what freight line are they talking about here?

They hardly mean the Phoenix Park Tunnel?

MarkoP11 · 01-09-2006 12:32pm

Nope Heuston Yard to Cork didn't go through tunnel but some did go through the tunnel but Heuston was the starting point

The volume of traffic wasn't terribly great but the model was good, heavy trains travelled to various depot locations, Cork, Athlone, Dundalk etc with road haul to local area

I won't repost the list but the vast bulk of rail freight was from companies who are no longer trading for various reasons and resulted in zero extra traffic on the roads, if I'm reading it right IE will carry more freight next year than this year owing to the 90,000 ton Norfolkline contract.

The real issue is the road hauliers who seem able to operate in a zero regulation environment, eg speeding on motorway, working hours etc, if the DoT put cash up to support rail freight they would be the first to complain about being driven out of the business etc

Red Alert · 01-09-2006 1:48pm

The lack of a vibrant rail freight business in Ireland is the fault of two things: one is Brendan Ogle and the other is the management ineptitude and arrogance that exists in CIE. There is a real case for rail freight if it is made reliable, and works on a modern business model.

Heavy trucks such be taxed for their impact on the environment. Most are inefficiently operated. Such a move would make railfreight more viable and in turn more dependable.

If Barry Kenny does not have an interest in railfreight, the government should force CIE to allow a private individual to run such a business.

CIE are actively preventing this: perfectly good 141 class (and similar) locomotives are being cut up in Inchicore to prevent such a situation occuring. Dublin Bus got into very serious trouble when they scrapped the KD's over disposal of semi-state assets, and as a result the later buses were sold on withdrawl.

Without locomotives the start up cost of transporting an regauging a British loco would be insane.

Chris_533976 · 01-09-2006 2:36pm

The German way - lorries get charged per kilometre of autobahn travelled.

Makes rail etc more logical.

MarkoP11 · 01-09-2006 5:08pm

To be fair they secured the 90,000 ton pa Norkfolkline deal earlier this year

If you want a locomotive there is only one to consider the EMD JT42CWRM its in production right now and EMD will provide a 1600 mm config even on single digit orders, about €3 million a pop. Weak 45 year old equipment with little pulling power won't cut the need to run fast and heavy, otherwise make it known you want a 071 but beware of the cost to totally overhaul the engine and the crew in Inchicore are possibly the best in Europe for putting EMD kit back together, Belfast are possibly the worst. The tender to scrap the 141's was issued publicly and on e-tenders as legally required.

If I walked into the DoT today I could apply to operate a freight service cross border under EU law, one company did but since decided not to proceed, they made it known to the business community that they where seeking business. They where not seeking locomotives but DMU style kit. Open access on the Irish network for freight (and possibly passengers) comes in 2007. The legal framework to cover the safety end was signed in January 2006. The fact no one has taken up the challenge indicates that there is no market. Interestingly Irish Rail was probably the first company in Europe to operate its own freight trains with its own staff in the jurisdiction of another when it did Derry Waterford for Collite in the late 1990's

Freight is like the passenger business, its a gold mine when there is a steady constant flow of demand but crap if its a bit here and a bit there

The fundamental problems are in 2006

1) No domestic mining business apart from Tara Mines, compare that to the coal mines in the UK
2) Minimal heavy raw material consuming industry, only one I can think of is Aughinish Alumina
3) Distances are short
4) Demand low, eg 2 trains per week to Ballina
5) Beet is gone
6) Must cover costs, separate accounts

Compare that to 1980's
1) Slivermines, Thomastown (limestone for Ballincourty) and Tara Mines at full production
2) Ballincourty, Asahi and IFI where running a colossal profit for CIE
3) Roads where utterly crap
4) Heavy daily demand, it had economies of scale
5) Beet was on the up till Thurles closed
6) Common pool of money so passengers cross subsidised freight

The upside really if there is one is that the money given for passenger services no longer disappears into blackhole where it kept the unprofitable freight business going while passenger services where starved of money

Ham'nd'egger · 03-09-2006 12:16am

MarkoP11 wrote:

To be fair they secured the 90,000 ton pa Norkfolkline deal earlier this year

If you want a locomotive there is only one to consider the EMD JT42CWRM its in production right now and EMD will provide a 1600 mm config even on single digit orders, about €3 million a pop. Weak 45 year old equipment with little pulling power won't cut the need to run fast and heavy, otherwise make it known you want a 071 but beware of the cost to totally overhaul the engine and the crew in Inchicore are possibly the best in Europe for putting EMD kit back together, Belfast are possibly the worst. The tender to scrap the 141's was issued publicly and on e-tenders as legally required.

If I walked into the DoT today I could apply to operate a freight service cross border under EU law, one company did but since decided not to proceed, they made it known to the business community that they where seeking business. They where not seeking locomotives but DMU style kit. Open access on the Irish network for freight (and possibly passengers) comes in 2007. The legal framework to cover the safety end was signed in January 2006. The fact no one has taken up the challenge indicates that there is no market. Interestingly Irish Rail was probably the first company in Europe to operate its own freight trains with its own staff in the jurisdiction of another when it did Derry Waterford for Collite in the late 1990's

Freight is like the passenger business, its a gold mine when there is a steady constant flow of demand but crap if its a bit here and a bit there

The fundamental problems are in 2006

1) No domestic mining business apart from Tara Mines, compare that to the coal mines in the UK
2) Minimal heavy raw material consuming industry, only one I can think of is Aughinish Alumina
3) Distances are short
4) Demand low, eg 2 trains per week to Ballina
5) Beet is gone
6) Must cover costs, separate accounts

Compare that to 1980's
1) Slivermines, Thomastown (limestone for Ballincourty) and Tara Mines at full production
2) Ballincourty, Asahi and IFI where running a colossal profit for CIE
3) Roads where utterly crap
4) Heavy daily demand, it had economies of scale
5) Beet was on the up till Thurles closed
6) Common pool of money so passengers cross subsidised freight

The upside really if there is one is that the money given for passenger services no longer disappears into blackhole where it kept the unprofitable freight business going while passenger services where starved of money

Mark, try telling this to most people and sadly it goes in and out both ears. Some people just assume that with rail freight, it's akin to filling up a van and way we go but Fasttrack aside, IE can't offer that anymore. Long gone are the old days of loose coupled wagons of anything and everything, as much for safety reasons as pure practicality (Imagine loading a wagon of a few TV's or potatoes and sheep at every half baked halt in the nation, that was the days of the mixed trains of old!). We don't have the heavy mineral ore traffic here nor manafacturing to warrant it either, and as you have said before, most of the traffic lost hasn't gone to the roads (Most Kegs are road hauled anyway before Guinness tendered out last year). Good to hear that Norfolk are tied in for another few years, but Liner trains are little slower than passenger traffic so 201 will cope with them for now, with 071 able to deal with the rest.

As for our friend in the Green Party lamenting the loss of rail freight, I wonder how his bicycle, furniture, etc got delivered to him? :rolleyes:

monument · 03-09-2006 6:01pm

Oh, so there’s actually none or few articulated trucks with full containers going from one side or end of the country to the other. :rolleyes:

It may be cheaper for companies to ship in bulk long distances. But the cost to the State, the environment, and to lives is certainly far greater.

John R · 03-09-2006 8:30pm

monument wrote:

Oh, so there’s actually none or few articulated trucks with full containers going from one side or end of the country to the other. :rolleyes:

It may be cheaper for companies to ship in bulk long distances. But the cost to the State, the environment, and to lives is certainly far greater.

Until this cost is included in the price of road haulage there is little that rail freight can do. Companies will always go with the cheapest option.

A major problem with transporting containers across the country by rail is the ports. Without railheads at the container ports they have to be taken from ship to truck and driven to the rail to be loaded. In the extra time it takes to do this the truck would have driven half way to it's destination with the added benefit of not needing a second haulier to take the container from the second rail hub to it's final destination. Not to mention the extra labour cost of the handling.

Ship-rail-truck is a viable operation, ship-truck-rail-truck in a country as small as Ireland is not.

MarkoP11 · 03-09-2006 9:11pm

Waterford and Dublin have dockside rail facilities, Cork did as well until about 10 years ago when the siding was lifted. Waterford is unique in the sense you can lift the container directly from train to ship, that said the cost to dredge the Suir is a obstacle

The container business was good when there was a single bulk customer, Bell Lines but they went bust in 1997

Until last year there was a daily unit load train Dublin Cork it ceased since it couldn't cover its costs even after significant increase in charges, since the risk of the train not being full was borne by IE it was doomed

Sarsfield · 03-09-2006 9:44pm

In the current debate about the future of our ports (based on Dublin reaching capacity), Waterford touted itself as the way of the future. It stressed it's good road connectivity and didn't mention a word about rail. At least that's how it got quoted in the media. I thought it said a lot about the future of rail freight.

Example report fro RTÉ

ad hoc · 19-09-2006 7:34pm

Bye bye freight by rail....

Irish Rail have started the freight fire sale. "Surplus Freight Equipment" to be sold as seen.

http://etenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=SEP067822

dowlingm · 19-09-2006 7:52pm

maybe the Western Intercounty Railway Committee should buy them?

Greens criticise freight rail closure

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