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Are 4X4 becoming obsolete

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  • 16-08-2015 8:03pm
    #1
    whupdedo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭


    What's the point of having a near 2 ton jeep when the total towing capacity including trailer and contents is 3.5 tons , you're allowed tow roughly 1.5 ton including a trailer.

    Some of the smaller vans have a towing capacity of around 2 ton . Even the smallest berlingo has a towing capacity of nearly 1 ton, which a decent 8 by 4 car trailer would hold , including the weight of the trailer of course

    So what's the advantage of having a 3 litre diesel guzzler with a diminished towing capacity because of current laws , when you could pull the same thing with a smaller van with better mpg ?


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    #2
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    off road capabilities, better brakes, better suspension travel for rough roads, the ability to tread deeper water.

    towing is only one element of a 4x4 , they still have a lot of use even when detached from a trailer.


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    #3
    paulmclaughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭paulmclaughlin


    I think you've misunderstood towing capacities. If you have a BE licence, and a 4x4 capable of towing 3500 kg, you can tow 3500 kg, the weight of the vehicle does not matter as long as the vehicle, trailer and load combined do not exceed 7000 kg.

    Read more here.


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    #4
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭mulbot


    pulling a max load constantly with something like a berlingo etc will wear out your clutch and other parts fairly quickly- A proper 4x4 will handle those jobs much easier.


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    #5
    whupdedo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭whupdedo


    paulmclaughlin wrote: »
    I think you've misunderstood towing capacities. If you have a BE licence, and a 4x4 capable of towing 3500 kg, you can tow 3500 kg, the weight of the vehicle does not matter as long as the vehicle, trailer and load combined do not exceed 7000 kg.

    Read more here.

    That's what I've always understood, but I had a cpc today and the instructor was adamant that it is combined towing weight including vehicle towing , it has me confused as I always thought it was towing 3.5 not including jeep

    Edit : I read through that and it seems my cpc instructor was wrong , thanks for that link , looks like I won't need to sell the diesel guzzler after all


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    #6
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭mulbot


    whupdedo wrote: »
    That's what I've always understood, but I had a cpc today and the instructor was adamant that it is combined towing weight including vehicle towing , it has me confused as I always thought it was towing 3.5 not including jeep

    If you have a B only license and say the trailer is over 750 kg,then it becomes combined weight, the whole setup can't be more than 3and half ton.


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    #7
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    Your instructor was wrong!

    Ps, I've yet to see a small car/ van pull an ifor Williams flat bed trailer up a saturated wet field with a steep slope.

    .... My Discovery 3, does the job very nicely in grass,gravel and snow mode - most of time, I do need new tyres!! :D


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    #8
    GreaseGunner
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭GreaseGunner


    The off road capabilities vs. that of a car or van will mean that the 4x4 will never be obsolete. It's a handy machine that can both go ~120km/h on a motorway and tackle dodgy fields just the same.


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    #9
    btb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭btb


    GreaseGunner wrote: »
    The off road capabilities vs. that of a car or van will mean that the 4x4 will never be obsolete. It's a handy machine that can both go ~120km/h on a motorway and tackle dodgy fields just the same.

    Totally off topic but.....

    And it amazes me the ammount of drivers that think that they can do 120kph on the roads while towing their said trailer.


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    #10
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    A proper 4x4 can do 120km per hour much safer than a standard saloon can do 80-100 with said trailer.

    I'd be of the opinion that any good 4x4 - Land Rover, Pajero, Land cruiser would stop quicker at 120 than a saloon car with the same trailer at 80.

    As noted earlier, they are setup with bigger capabilities in almost all areas of performances/ braking.


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    #11
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    btb wrote: »
    Totally off topic but.....

    And it amazes me the ammount of drivers that think that they can do 120kph on the roads while towing their said trailer.
    Its all good with a car until it starts snaking and the whole thing goes bad really quickly.
    You can't beat weight for towing safely, a heavy vehicle will give a measure of stability that cars mostly will never match.
    Some cars do tow well, big old mercs like the 300D and so on but the current fashion for lightweight high powered cars towing big weights is crazy.


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    #12
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Theanswers wrote: »
    A proper 4x4 can do 120km per hour much safer than a standard saloon can do 80-100 with said trailer.

    In theory, yes, in practice, entirely illegal.
    the maximum legal speed limit for a vehicle towing a trailer is 80km/hr.


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    #13
    TrailerBob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭TrailerBob


    The 80kph limit on motorways for trailers is there to protect people from themselves. A properly loaded trailer can safely do higher speeds without any problem. The issue comes if a tyre were to blow, then the trailer becomes a huge danger. Combine that with the reality that a lot of people don't know how to load trailers properly, then snaking can become a problem. A properly balanced load will not make a trailer snake.

    Back on topic, proper 4x4s will not go obsolete. A santa fe won't last long towing a fully loaded sheep trailer to the mart. The market for them is smaller, but still significant


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    #14
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    I don't know why people think 4x4's are for towing.

    All else being equal 4x2's always have a higher towing capacity than 4x4's.

    4x4's are meant to be for going places where 4x2's have difficulty.


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    #15
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Theanswers wrote: »
    A proper 4x4 can do 120km per hour much safer than a standard saloon can do 80-100 with said trailer.

    I'd be of the opinion that any good 4x4 - Land Rover, Pajero, Land cruiser would stop quicker at 120 than a saloon car with the same trailer at 80.

    As noted earlier, they are setup with bigger capabilities in almost all areas of performances/ braking.

    I wouldn't like to be on the same stretch of road as you when you're towing ffs.


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    #16
    whupdedo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭whupdedo


    Also , does any one know the requirements to tow a 14 by 6 , or what are the limitations as to towing , length and axles ? Thanks for all the replies so far


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    #17
    K.O.Kiki
    Registered Users Posts: 18,703 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    Theanswers wrote: »
    A proper 4x4 can do 120km per hour much safer than a standard saloon can do 80-100 with said trailer.

    I'd be of the opinion that any good 4x4 - Land Rover, Pajero, Land cruiser would stop quicker at 120 than a saloon car with the same trailer at 80.

    As noted earlier, they are setup with bigger capabilities in almost all areas of performances/ braking.
    CJhaughey wrote: »
    Its all good with a car until it starts snaking and the whole thing goes bad really quickly.
    You can't beat weight for towing safely, a heavy vehicle will give a measure of stability that cars mostly will never match.
    Some cars do tow well, big old mercs like the 300D and so on but the current fashion for lightweight high powered cars towing big weights is crazy.
    I always thought 4x4 owners had failed Physics.

    Glad it's confirmed now.


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    #18
    Kevhog1988
    Registered Users Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    4x4 transporter is a savage tool for towing etc imho... rare enough second hand tho


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    #19
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    I don't know why people think 4x4's are for towing.

    All else being equal 4x2's always have a higher towing capacity than 4x4's.

    4x4's are meant to be for going places where 4x2's have difficulty.

    Rubbish.

    My Land Rover can tow 3.5 Tonne.

    Find me a Two Wheel drive common vehicle that can tow the same, with equal performance.


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    #20
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    I always thought 4x4 owners had failed Physics.

    Glad it's confirmed now.

    You Sir no offence, must do very little towing.

    Whoever thinks a euro matchbox is a towing vehicle has limited experience.


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    #21
    K.O.Kiki
    Registered Users Posts: 18,703 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    Theanswers wrote: »
    You Sir no offence, must do very little towing.

    Whoever thinks a euro matchbox is a towing vehicle has limited experience.

    (full offense meant)
    Muppets like you who don't understand basic physics are the reason I'd rather be driven in a bus.

    http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/speed.html
    80km/h
    Any vehicle towing a trailer, caravan, horsebox or other attachment


    http://www.uktow.com/stopping%20distances.asp
    Worth noting is that from 50 to 100 kph the braking distance of a car will increase from 10 metres to 40 metres. When you double the speed of a car braking distance quadruples.

    This is based on the laws of physics. When a car is moving it has kinetic energy, ½mv2. When the velocity doubles the kinetic energy quadruples. The braking capability does not increase when driving faster, there are no reserves of friction. As such in any vehicle when your speed doubles braking distance is four times larger.
    Vehicle weight
    Weight is something that has to be considered during towing. If the trailer being towed does not have any braking system then the total weight of car and trailer is added together and spread over just the four braking tyres of the towing vehicle. If the trailer has a braking system then the weight is dispersed over all braking tyres and will give better stopping distances. On a wet or slippery surface the lack of brakes on a trailer will have much more effect on total stopping distances than in the dry.

    To wit: a HEAVIER vehicle WILL, EVERY TIME take longer to brake ; as will one travelling faster.


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    #22
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    In the Real world - small cars are unable to cope with towing heavy loads.

    I stand by my point. Ever wonder why farmers, builders and anyone who tows isn't using the latest diesel 1.6TDI.

    Not Fit. I've seen said vehicles being pushed down hills due to the weight behind.

    A proper 4x4 will have a low range box/ hill decent to avoid this. Likewise, the small brakes have trouble holding back big loads.

    Try starting off on a steep slope with 2 tonne behind your passat. The clutch will be delighted.

    You cannot argue that they are better. Even shocks/ air bags struts are better on larger 4x4s to handle weight on the back axle...


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    #23
    paulmclaughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭paulmclaughlin


    A 4x4 is normally made for sturdier materials designed to cope with the stresses of towing heavier weights that cars.

    Also, due to the heavier weight of a 4x4, it will generally have more grip on the road for braking due to greater pressure between the tyre and road. Therefore a 4x4 will stop a 2 ton trailer with more ease than a car.


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    #24
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    (full offense meant)
    Muppets like you who don't understand basic physics are the reason I'd rather be driven in a bus.

    http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/speed.html



    http://www.uktow.com/stopping%20distances.asp



    To wit: a HEAVIER vehicle WILL, EVERY TIME take longer to brake ; as will one travelling faster.

    You are assuming all brakes are equal. They are not. Likewise you are assuming that when full brakes are applied that the heavily loaded trailer will not cause adverse effects on in your case the light towing vehicle. It will. Therefore, the larger 4x4 will handle this situation better. It's physics - the heavier the towing vehicle the better it is at absorbing the movement of the loaded trailer.


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    #25
    Kevhog1988
    Registered Users Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    Theanswers wrote: »
    Rubbish.

    My Land Rover can tow 3.5 Tonne.

    Find me a Two Wheel drive common vehicle that can tow the same, with equal performance.

    what brake setup has the landy? most defenders have **** stopping power. also newer fuma emgine is basically a transit engine


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    #26
    TrailerBob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭TrailerBob


    Don't forget also, that any good factory built trailer will have proper brakes. When I have had to brake hard once or twice with my 12x6 indespension loaded with a Ferguson tractor, the trailer can actually help, even pulling back on the jeep a small bit. Physics principles will only apply when all other characteristics are equal... Which they're not. My brakes are much bigger than a passat.. I've had both, and towed with both

    As for the question about lengths and axles, there is no real limit, once the weights are ok. I wouldn't recommend anything longer than 16ft though... Tail swing can be nasty on some of the very long Williams trailers


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    #27
    whupdedo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭whupdedo


    TrailerBob wrote: »

    As for the question about lengths and axles, there is no real limit, once the weights are ok. I wouldn't recommend anything longer than 16ft though... Tail swing can be nasty on some of the very long Williams trailers

    Cheers for that


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    #28
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    theemigrant wrote: »
    what brake setup has the landy? most defenders have **** stopping power. also newer fuma emgine is basically a transit engine

    Mine has brembo... And in no way what so ever is my Land Rovers engine anything related to a transit. 245BHP TDV8.


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    #29
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »

    To wit: a HEAVIER vehicle WILL, EVERY TIME take longer to brake ; as will one travelling faster.
    The weight of the tow vehicle has a big impact on how the load is controlled during braking.
    The fact that a trailer has brakes means the braking load is not transferred to the tow vehicle during braking.
    Braking is only one part of the equation, turning and controlling the trailer during the turn is another and the forces generated during turning are not braking forces but lateral forces, the heavier the tow vehicle the better it is able to resist the forces put through the towbar from side to side.

    You can posit all kinds of physics and say that they are true but in the real world people that tow for a living and often do so in conditions that would stop a normal car from pulling away will use a 4wd because they are better for the job.

    Load a family saloon with a 500kg trailer and another 700kg of timber, put the same car on a 15% incline and try and pull away, now try and do it while wet and you'll find it very difficult to make any progress without slipping the clutch and wheelspinning .
    Try the same thing in a decent 4wd like a Landcruiser and you'll find the difference amazing, the low down torque that a big engine and big flywheel gives and the grip being transferred through all the big grippy tyres makes the job a lot easier.


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    #30
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,278 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    No doubt landcruiser is a fantastic tool however it scares me the way people drive them on the road.
    Yes they have come on alot over the years in terms of on road behaviour but imo they should not be thrown around like a car. Given the amount of suspension travel and the way they behave, they are not a nice machine to control if they get out of shape on a bend. I've known a few people put them on their roofs.


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    #31
    Theanswers
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    mickdw wrote: »
    No doubt landcruiser is a fantastic tool however it scares me the way people drive them on the road.
    Yes they have come on alot over the years in terms of on road behaviour but imo they should not be thrown around like a car. Given the amount of suspension travel and the way they behave, they are not a nice machine to control if they get out of shape on a bend. I've known a few people put them on their roofs.

    4x4 means the Landcruiser or anything similar will be very grippy, unlike front or rear wheel drive cars.

    Yes the have a higher centre of gravity, however they are no Reliant Robbin!!

    My Land Rover for instance will lower it's suspension at anything over 45mph to lower the centre of gravity.


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