Independents - what do they do?

irishash · 23-05-2014 5:26pm #1

I have a question. This question is brought by the amount of people who have told me recently that they are voting independent today, and at the next general election. The question is what have the current crop of independents actually acheived in this Dail. For a moment lets focus on the most well known ones.

Mick Wallace - elected on a platform of political reform and local issues, he has spent most of his time arguing with Alan Shatter, and being found guilty of tax evasion. As far as I am aware, political reform and local issues yet to be acheived.

Clare Daly - elected on a platform of local issues and a socalist manifesto. Has spent most of her time debating the goverment on national issues and also arguing with Alan Shatter. Arrested for (but not charged) driving under the influence since elected. Has acheived nothing from her election promises (even minor local issues).

Ming - elected on a platform of truf cutting rights, political reform and legalising it (?). Spent most of the time debating with the goverment over national issues, has not stopped any of the turf plans for roscommon and you still have to buy grass under the counter.

Then there is Richard Boyd-Barrett, Shane Ross and Joe "soundbyte" Higgins.

Let me make something very clear here, I raise this issue to gain some propective on independents, not to bash them. The faults I have raised above are all I know about them and sometimes you only hear the bad stuff and not the good. Still, having TD's that have broken serious laws is not good at all.

I contend that independents these days have become the heartland of the socalist movement. Back in the day independents used to get stuff done, with and without goverment support. Take the late Tony Gergory for one. He acheived a lot in the Dail for inner city dublin, went in with a realistic platform and delivered multiple times.

Is voting independent just voting for the far left now?? Or can you convince me there is more to it than that??

gugleguy · 23-05-2014 5:39pm

Tony Gregory was productive alright.........I'm not being sarcastic.
But now let me digress back to the present cold light of day.
I find independent TDs simply waxing lyrical of how they helped to bring down or make resign government ministers etc. Personally, I see little extra that the independents have done, in terms of pragmatism / industrial relation arbitration etc.

alastair · 23-05-2014 5:44pm

Most elected TD's spend most of their time in the Dail debating legislation. That's kind of the point of the place. Independents, like party politicians, get a vote, and the opportunity to bring issues to the floor - they do exactly the same kind of stuff as other TD's. What they don't provide is a block of votes, so they tend to be constrained by numbers, rather than party manifesto. Independents have no monopoly on breaking the law, and Clare Daly hasn't been convicted of any offense to date. AS to holding politicians to their pre-election promises - who would you say, independent or party member, that has delivered on their promises?

irishash · 23-05-2014 6:29pm

alastair wrote: »

Most elected TD's spend most of their time in the Dail debating legislation. That's kind of the point of the place. Independents, like party politicians, get a vote, and the opportunity to bring issues to the floor - they do exactly the same kind of stuff as other TD's. What they don't provide is a block of votes, so they tend to be constrained by numbers, rather than party manifesto. Independents have no monopoly on breaking the law, and Clare Daly hasn't been convicted of any offense to date. AS to holding politicians to their pre-election promises - who would you say, independent or party member, that has delivered on their promises?

Well, I would take your answer to mean they have done nothing but that is OK because nobody has done anything?

I would like to think that the current government have at least fulfilled some of their election promises (a referendum on the seanad, exit from the bailout program, re-negotiation of the bailout terms (whether or not you give them credit for it, it was changed). This is what the elected candidates campaigned on. The independents (broadly speaking) campaigned on local issues.

If I was to give your answer to the vast majority of independent voters, I dont think they would be happy with that excuse. They would say "what has that got to do with getting extra funding for this school, this hospital, what has that got to do with turf cutting, or political reform. This is what I eected you for". As far as I am aware, the first piece of political reform that came along, the technical group campaigned for a no vote.

And now Ming wants to be an MEP aswell, sure why not, he has done such a great job for Roscommon, the Northwest and midlands should be happy to have him.

The question was what have independents achieved, not what has anybody achieved. Your answer is the have done nothing, because that is the way politics works........rubbish.

Banjo String · 23-05-2014 6:54pm

Clare Daly - elected on a platform of local issues and a socalist manifesto. Has spent most of her time debating the goverment on national issues and also arguing with Alan Shatter. Charged with dangerous driving and driving under the influence since elected . Has acheived nothing from her election promises (even minor local issues).

She hasn't. With such a long post, I'd have presumed you'd at least have researched before writing that tbh.

alastair · 23-05-2014 6:55pm

irishash wrote: »

Well, I would take your answer to mean they have done nothing but that is OK because nobody has done anything?

Not quite.

irishash wrote: »

I would like to think that the current government have at least fulfilled some of their election promises (a referendum on the seanad, exit from the bailout program, re-negotiation of the bailout terms (whether or not you give them credit for it, it was changed). This is what the elected candidates campaigned on. The independents (broadly speaking) campaigned on local issues.

You're aware a government isn't a candidate, or a party, it's a collection of TD's? The independents did not, broadly speaking, campaign on local issues - most of them campaigned on national issues.

irishash wrote: »

If I was to give your answer to the vast majority of independent voters, I dont think they would be happy with that excuse. They would say "what has that got to do with getting extra funding for this school, this hospital, what has that got to do with turf cutting, or political reform. This is what I eected you for". As far as I am aware, the first piece of political reform that came along, the technical group campaigned for a no vote.

What 'excuse'? The technical group don't campaign, so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

irishash wrote: »

And now Ming wants to be an MEP aswell, sure why not, he has done such a great job for Roscommon, the Northwest and midlands should be happy to have him.

The question was what have independents achieved, not what has anybody achieved. Your answer is the have done nothing, because that is the way politics works........rubbish.

Glad that you're happy to put words in my mouth as well as notional independent voters. I think the echo chamber is that way. Meanwhile I'm still waiting to hear which party candidate has achieved their pre-election commitments. That's a candidate now - not a government.

irishash · 23-05-2014 7:03pm

Banjo String wrote: »

She hasn't. With such a long post, if have presumed you'd at least have researched before writing that tbh.

I am quite happy to withdraw that and have amended the original post. She was arrested but not charged.

23-05-2014 7:05pm

You don't want to bash them, but left out Stephen Donnelly? Is that cos you have no dirt (made up or otherwise) about him like the others?

irishash · 23-05-2014 7:11pm

alastair wrote: »

Not quite.

What 'excuse'? The technical group don't campaign, so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

Glad that you're happy to put words in my mouth as well as notional independent voters. I think the echo chamber is that way. Meanwhile I'm still waiting to hear which party candidate has achieved their pre-election commitments. That's a candidate now - not a government.

All the members of the technical group stated that their preference was for a No vote at the last referendum.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, only that to my mind Ming has achieved nothing locally, or nationally, and now he wants to be an MEP? Based on what political results?

Yet again you are asking me to show you a party politician that has fulfilled a local promise. I did not know there were terms and conditions to my query. You justify the non-actions of independents because I have not shown results from a party politician?

It is not a case of show me yours and I will show you mine.

irishash · 23-05-2014 7:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't want to bash them, but left out Stephen Donnelly? Is that cos you have no dirt (made up or otherwise) about him like the others?

I am quite sure I left out a few independents, Stephen Donnelly or otherwise. I do not want to bash them. I want people to defend them if they can be defended or bash them if they have reason to be bashed. I have simply written down what I am most aware of Daly, Ming and Wallace.

And please dont accuse me of making stuff up. I was mistaken that Clare Daly was charged, admitted it, and have amended the original post.

alastair · 23-05-2014 7:20pm

irishash wrote: »

All the members of the technical group stated that their preference was for a No vote at the last referendum.

True - but that was simply because they all happened to share that view - the group is not a campaigning group and has no group manifesto. As it turns out, the public agreed with them - score one for the independents!

irishash wrote: »

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, only that to my mind Ming has achieved nothing locally, or nationally, and now he wants to be an MEP? Based on what political results?

I never mentioned Ming. You were putting words in my mouth.

irishash wrote: »

Yet again you are asking me to show you a party politician that has fulfilled a local promise. I did not know there were terms and conditions to my query. You justify the non-actions of independents because I have not shown results from a party politician?

It is not a case of show me yours and I will show you mine.

The point is that you're attempting to judge independents by a measure that you couldn't apply any more to party candidates. All pre-election commitments are, at best, to strive to an end, parliamentary politics is about compromise and concession - no-one can deliver all they would like - independent or party candidate.

irishash · 23-05-2014 7:26pm

alastair wrote: »

The point is that you're attempting to judge independents by a measure that you couldn't apply any more to party candidates. All pre-election commitments are, at best, to strive to an end, parliamentary politics is about compromise and concession - no-one can deliver all they would like - independent or party candidate.

My point remains that the vast majority of independents campaign on various local issues (for example Ming with the turf issue). I am stating that if they are unable to get any movement at all on any local issues, then have the electorate made a mistake in electing them?

Even a lobbyist can get something done, and not all the time with brown paper bags. The independents are on the inside, able to communicate with ministers and local government, yet they fail to deliver. Or maybe they do deliver and I am mistaken.

alastair · 23-05-2014 7:36pm

irishash wrote: »

My point remains that the vast majority of independents campaign on various local issues

So you say - but as I've already said - that's not the case.

irishash wrote: »

(for example Ming with the turf issue).

Is that a local issue? Is that the only basis for his candidacy? Here's his campaign leaflet from 2011 - notably a mix of national and local issues, such as you'd find with any party political candidate: http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2011/02/12/let-me-represent-you-flyer-for-luke-ming-flanagan-independent-roscommon-south-leitrim/

irishash wrote: »

I am stating that if they are unable to get any movement at all on any local issues, then have the electorate made a mistake in electing them?

If they ran purely on local issues, then they should be judged on that basis - but few of them do.

irishash wrote: »

Even a lobbyist can get something done, and not all the time with brown paper bags. The independents are on the inside, able to communicate with ministers and local government, yet they fail to deliver. Or maybe they do deliver and I am mistaken.

Do they fail to deliver? Obviously their voters make that call come the next election.

irishash · 23-05-2014 7:43pm

alastair wrote: »

Do they fail to deliver? Obviously their voters make that call come the next election.

That is my question, do they deserve the votes based on their record. Will the voters put them back in. What do you think?

hatrickpatrick · 23-05-2014 8:52pm

I love the way you've dismissed Wallace, Daly and Ming as "arguing with Shatter", where most people would probably haw written "trying to force through much needed reform of the justice system and get rid of the rotten crowd which had been running it".

Were it not for the determination of the opposition, including the aforementioned independents, Shatter and Callinan would still be in their jobs, remarks against Sgt McCabe would still be on the Dail record, and we would have made no progress whatsoever in terms of clearing out the rot.

John_C · 23-05-2014 9:20pm

Whatever about the rest; "rowing with Shatter" falls under political reform.

Good loser · 24-05-2014 1:59am

Independents play more populist politics than do the parties. The individual is afraid to alienate any votes because he/she is unsure of exactly where their support is coming from. For example none of them will directly criticise the (demands of) public service e.g. guards, nurses or teachers. They will all the time be critical of tiny minorities such as developers (except M Wallace), the wealthy (undefined), bankers, bondholders.
They depend on the established parties to form a Govt so that they can snipe and begrudger continuously. Note in debates how when they are asked for what 'they would do' thay give a perfunctory one liner and segue back effortlessly into their whining. Imagine a Dail with only Independents! Could only cause instability, corruption and chaos. Noticed in the last Dail when Independents backed Govt how each of them made regular demands for jobs for their boys/girls. Serious risk of an escalation in cronyism and corruption.

alastair · 24-05-2014 2:08am

Good loser wrote: »

Independents play more populist politics than do the parties. The individual is afraid to alienate any votes because he/she is unsure of exactly where their support is coming from.

Why would independents have any greater or lesser knowledge of where their support came from than party candidates? It can't really be said that Daly, Wallace, or Flanagan have been too kind to the record of the Gardai since they've been elected, so this inability to voice criticism of public sector workers theory seems a bit flawed.

golfwallah · 24-05-2014 8:14am

Independents caused a lot of noise about Alan Shatter but were ineffective in bringing him down.

It was findings in the Guerin Report that finally brought about Minister Shatter's resignation, to quote the following from thejournal.ie:

First things first: who is Sean Guerin?

Seán Guerin is a senior barrister who has a lot of experience in criminal law. He was the prosecuting counsel in the trial of John Dundon for the murder of rugby player Shane Geoghegan in Limerick, among other high profile cases.

Why did the government ask him to write a report?

Earlier this year, Sergeant Maurice McCabe gave a dossier to Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin containing allegations about how gardaí had dealt with several cases involving abduction, assault and murder.

So, in the final analysis it was the courage, persistence and focus of Garda Sargeant, Maurice McCabe, who passed on a dossier (on inadequate investigation by the Garda) to a mainstream opposition party leader (not independents), that brought about the resignation of the Minister for Justice.

My view is that independents are a result of protest votes against the established parties and weaken the political process in the long run. I think the German electoral system has it right in not allowing minority candidates become elected until they attain a certain percentage of the vote.

Fr Tod Umptious · 24-05-2014 9:59am

Independents are only of use locally if thy hold the balance of power, thus they can extract a "price" for there support, ala Gregory, Healy Rae, Lowery etc.

Good loser · 24-05-2014 11:38pm

alastair wrote: »

Why would independents have any greater or lesser knowledge of where their support came from than party candidates? It can't really be said that Daly, Wallace, or Flanagan have been too kind to the record of the Gardai since they've been elected, so this inability to voice criticism of public sector workers theory seems a bit flawed.

They manage to emphasise that they are criticising a few bad eggs while they praise the vast majority of the workforces.

Guess the Parties are continually doing private polling to gauge their prospects etc. They can also discuss these matters within the parties.

Imagine a 5 seat constituency with 5 Independents elected.

alastair · 24-05-2014 11:55pm

Good loser wrote: »

They manage to emphasise that they are criticising a few bad eggs while they praise the vast majority of the workforces.

Guess the Parties are continually doing private polling to gauge their prospects etc. They can also discuss these matters within the parties.

Imagine a 5 seat constituency with 5 Independents elected.

So - they're actually not criticising the Gardai while criticising the Gardai? Gotcha.

A five seat constituency with five independents would be remarkably similar to a five seat constituency with five different party TD's - it really doesn't make much difference to the constituents, as long as they get decent representation.

Good loser · 25-05-2014 8:56pm

alastair wrote: »

So - they're actually not criticising the Gardai while criticising the Gardai? Gotcha.

A five seat constituency with five independents would be remarkably similar to a five seat constituency with five different party TD's - it really doesn't make much difference to the constituents, as long as they get decent representation.

Are you being obtuse? They say the Gardai/nurses/whatever (many voters) are doing a fine job except for these scandalous exceptions (few voters) which they are bringing to the public's attention.

There would be a big difference. You see Independents can't be pinned down on anything. You never hear about their party policies or manifestos or even party conferences as they haven't any; they can change/announce their policies overnight.

Mostly though it's the openess to cronyism and corruption. Read there recently where in Paraguay the governers of 23 of the 25 States are Independents. Apparently one of them has turned his State into a Mafia kingdom.

alastair · 26-05-2014 2:10am

Good loser wrote: »

There would be a big difference. You see Independents can't be pinned down on anything. You never hear about their party policies or manifestos .

Well - they normally have manifestos, which you can read, but given they're not a party, sure - no party policies.

Good loser wrote: »

or even party conferences as they haven't any; they can change/announce their policies overnight.

No need for party conferences for independents, but parties can change their policies overnight too.

Good loser wrote: »

Mostly though it's the openess to cronyism and corruption. Read there recently where in Paraguay the governers of 23 of the 25 States are Independents. Apparently one of them has turned his State into a Mafia kingdom.

Gosh! Good thing I've never heard of corruption with party politicians. I suppose the fine people of Roscommon should brace themselves for Ming's Mafia then?

jank · 26-05-2014 6:57am

I think it's a valid question. What is the point of independents apart from playing the local or populist issues. A government with only independents would never work.

Independents - what do they do?

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