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Is Ireland Really A Republic?
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Give it a break will you. When you travel the world you see that we don't have a clue what true poverty is. The poor are very well catered for in Ireland, from the taxes of the middle and upper classes. They are housed, fed, clothed and given exemptions on every new tax that is introduced. They can spend their whole living on social welfare without fear of having it cut.
did you get alot of tax breaks ? when you travel the world ireland is ridiculed by its banking crisis everything is taxed in ireland and you seem to endorse it.
These people on social welfare are easy target for you to pick on.
they cant help if the economy is bust and no employment available.
You are obvious not living in the real world. you must be in a fantasy republic.0 -
on the river wrote: »when you travel the world ireland is ridiculed by its banking crisis everything is taxed in ireland and you seem to endorse it.
Really, I am just back from a stint in the USA and nobody mentioned it to me in a personal or professional capacity. A Spanish friend commented on how well Ireland is doing compared to his home country of Spain.on the river wrote: »You are obvious not living in the real world. you must be in a fantasy republic.
Well, as a PAYE worker whose pays his taxes and living costs, I think I am. I don't get my rent/mortgage, clothes etc subsisted by the state, as part of my "entitlements". I pay them for other people, in reality.0 -
on the river wrote: »did you get alot of tax breaks ? when you travel the world ireland is ridiculed by its banking crisis everything is taxed in ireland and you seem to endorse it.
These people on social welfare are easy target for you to pick on.
they cant help if the economy is bust and no employment available.
You are obvious not living in the real world. you must be in a fantasy republic.
Well, we voted for it - more than once - so we must want it on some level. One way or ther other, as I said before, none of this changes the status of being a "republic".Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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It was a response to your jaded inference that people on welfare are living the life of Reilly. If you chose to see societal groupings in absolutes, that's fine but don't assume everyone does.Oh, everyone who isn't in debt up to their necks is a tax cheat, of course. :rolleyes: Ridiculous stuff altogether.
The Klingons. Come off it.Really, occupied by who?0 -
Really, I am just back from a stint in the USA and nobody mentioned it to me in a personal or professional capacity. A Spanish friend commented on how well Ireland is doing compared to his home country of Spain.
Well, as a PAYE worker whose pays his taxes and living costs, I think I am. I don't get my rent/mortgage, clothes etc subsisted by the state, as part of my "entitlements". I pay them for other people, in reality.
Are you sure you were in the usa , Italked to alot of non european and they are disgusted the way Ireland was treated and how a real republic would not let that happen.
As regards the paye you should be lucky you have a job . many people do have your luxury .
The 1916 rising was a statement of a socialist republic. However what came
out of the rising and aftermath was nothing more then a change of flag.
The 1916 ideals were cast aside.0 -
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Really, I am just back from a stint in the USA and nobody mentioned it to me in a personal or professional capacity. A Spanish friend commented on how well Ireland is doing compared to his home country of Spain.
Well, as a PAYE worker whose pays his taxes and living costs, I think I am. I don't get my rent/mortgage, clothes etc subsisted by the state, as part of my "entitlements". I pay them for other people, in reality.on the river wrote: »Are you sure you were in the usa , Italked to alot of non european and they are disgusted the way Ireland was treated and how a real republic would not let that happen.
As regards the paye you should be lucky you have a job . many people do have your luxury .
The 1916 rising was a statement of a socialist republic. However what came
out of the rising and aftermath was nothing more then a change of flag.
The 1916 ideals were cast aside.
I don't think either of you actually know what a republic is or what it's are ideals are (republic generally, not specific to Ireland as one)Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Probably, in large part, because there wasn't much support for it. What people seem to forget is that the 1916 rising did not have widespread support to begin with. The spontaneous nationwide rebellion that the leaders of the rising were hoping for never materialized and even in Dublin it was met largely with indifference at best. It's success was ironically a result of it's failure and the sympathy that it garnered for it's leaders afterwords.on the river wrote: »The 1916 rising was a statement of a socialist republic. However what came out of the rising and aftermath was nothing more then a change of flag.
But this support was for independence - one would be seriously mistaken if one presumed that this support was for every supposed value of the rising, such as a 'socialist republic'.
This is before we consider the political realities that would have made such a 'socialist republic' difficult, if not impossible to attain, not to mention your analysis that it was a 'socialist republic' they were looking for in the first place, some of the leaders of the rising may have supported the idea, but there certainly was no consensus on this.0 -
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Maybe you missed the Good Friday Agreement? No-one is occupying any part of Ireland, bar people with a vote in what sovereign arrangement they choose for themselves.
Good Friday Agreement? This was were the people of Northern Ireland were balloted on if the wished to remain under British rule? Oh, no wait....0 -
Due to cutbacks there will be no resurrection this year ...Happy Easter.
Yours Faithfully,
the Republic, of Ireland.
http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php0 -
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No, it's they can choose their own path, given the choice they may ditch both the throne in London and Rome and actually establish a peoples constitution, the rest may follow them.Good Friday Agreement? This was were the people of Northern Ireland were balloted on if the wished to remain under British rule? Oh, no wait....0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »Ireland, that is the 26 counties, is de facto and de jure a republic.
True, the constitution doesn't say that it is a republic, but the constitution doesn't say murder is illegal or that you have to pay taxes. Something not being in the constitution doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Likewise, some nationalists believe that the Republic of Ireland is just a fictitious state and that they, as successors to the first and second dail, are really the true representatives of the people (even though they would probably command a minority of the popular vote if there was a referendum on it tomorrow).
Put another way, if we are not a republic, what are we?
Awesome! Superior! Fabulous!0 -
No, it's they can choose their own path, given the choice they may ditch both the throne in London and Rome and actually establish a peoples constitution, the rest may follow them.
Rome?OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH
Rome is not in the South. Very few Southerners have paid much heed to Il Papa for a very very very very very very very long time. Even the Prods ban abortion in the North. The Good Friday ban on booze was a State thing, which may have been suggested, strongly by the Irish Catholic Church to Cumann na nGaedheal in 1927 (people always, laughable suggest that that was all Dev's fault, sure he was only returning to the Dáil) Sure even Il Papa probably thinks thats mad stuff altogether. Not so long ago there was a lot of pressure in teams like the Ulster Rugby team not to play games on Sunday in the North - no Rome Rule there.
But ya, accurate account as to What the GFA is0 -
walrusgumble wrote: »Rome?OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH
Rome is not in the South. Very few Southerners have paid much heed to Il Papa for a very very very very very very very long time. Even the Prods ban abortion in the North. The Good Friday ban on booze was a State thing, which may have been suggested, strongly by the Irish Catholic Church to Cumann na nGaedheal in 1927 (people always, laughable suggest that that was all Dev's fault, sure he was only returning to the Dáil) Sure even Il Papa probably thinks thats mad stuff altogether. Not so long ago there was a lot of pressure in teams like the Ulster Rugby team not to play games on Sunday in the North - no Rome Rule there.
But ya, accurate account as to What the GFA is
im lovin i whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop .
some one buy this man a pint.:pac:0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »Probably, in large part, because there wasn't much support for it. What people seem to forget is that the 1916 rising did not have widespread support to begin with. The spontaneous nationwide rebellion that the leaders of the rising were hoping for never materialized and even in Dublin it was met largely with indifference at best. It's success was ironically a result of it's failure and the sympathy that it garnered for it's leaders afterwords. But this support was for independence - one would be seriously mistaken if one presumed that this support was for every supposed value of the rising, such as a 'socialist republic'.
This is before we consider the political realities that would have made such a 'socialist republic' difficult, if not impossible to attain, not to mention your analysis that it was a 'socialist republic' they were looking for in the first place, some of the leaders of the rising may have supported the idea, but there certainly was no consensus on this.
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The "socialist republic" thing is a load of waffle. Socialist elements of the Proclamation were sops to Connolly, which were never taken seriously. I doubt Pearse and Plunkett were socialists. Even during the Tan War, Dev made it clear that the time was not right to decide what kind of an Ireland Ireland should be ie a republic/socialists/ corporatism etc. You can be damn sure that the big ranchers and even small farmers were not socialists at heart.
Nice to see that you ignore the Counter command by Eoin McNeill. Forces from the Midlands and Galway were on their way up to Dublin only to turn back at Shannonbridge Offaly on McNeill's orders. Secondly, the Rising were terribly organised based on a lot of wishful thinking (ie its actual support), thirdly, the sinking of arms in Kerry did not help. As Earnie O'Malley would later say, they took a lead
Pearse knew what level of support there was and was not. His intentions succeeded. The Rising changed people's opinions immediately after it, not simply because of the shootings, but because many men were arrested and interned to Dublin or England despite not being involved in the Rising (though were members of the IRB)
Despite a tiny minority, most people don't fall back on the fact that it was not initially accepted. The deeds were more than accepted thereafter. What does the minority seek to achieve? It is too late to get people to change their views on 1916 and subsequent events. Discredit it all ye want, ye will be ignored. Come 1916 anniversary, there will be many people out on the streets viewing the parades.0 -
on the river wrote: »did you get alot of tax breaks ? when you travel the world ireland is ridiculed by its banking crisis everything is taxed in ireland and you seem to endorse it.
These people on social welfare are easy target for you to pick on.
they cant help if the economy is bust and no employment available.
You are obvious not living in the real world. you must be in a fantasy republic.
Very few countries, even ze Germans can legitimately "ridicule" Ireland and it's banks and economy. They all , at one stage or another went through a lot of problems. They too had recessions. Sure America had a load of guys in jail for multiple life sentences for their role in Fraud and mortgages contracts. Sure look at Italy, and the legend that is Silvo B.
I would not be questioning whether someone is living in the real world, there is a good chance that that person is financing to social welfare receipt ants to continue their ways and refusing to look for work elsewhere
There are many different class of social welfare holders, some of who deserve to be targeted0 -
on the river wrote: »Are you sure you were in the usa , Italked to alot of non european and they are disgusted the way Ireland was treated and how a real republic would not let that happen.
As regards the paye you should be lucky you have a job . many people do have your luxury .
The 1916 rising was a statement of a socialist republic. However what came
out of the rising and aftermath was nothing more then a change of flag.
The 1916 ideals were cast aside.
1916 "ideals" were never taken serious, then and now, bar Connolly and his posse. It was a sop to Connolly, sound nice and fluffy. The Dail of 1919, despite restating much of the 1916 contents more or less said asmuch0 -
walrusgumble wrote: »Rome is not in the South. Very few Southerners have paid much heed to Il Papa for a very very very very very very very long time.
Yep. That's the reason our state-funded schools are 100% secular, and we don't have any priests and bishops sitting on the 'ethics' boards of our state funded hospitals dictating what procedures in relation to female fertility are acceptable.
No siree.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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While I feel that the influence of the Church in the Free State/RoI has often been exaggerated, you would have to be a bit blind to claim that such influence was not significant either, down even to our constitution.walrusgumble wrote: »Rome is not in the South.
Kind of my point.walrusgumble wrote: »The "socialist republic" thing is a load of waffle.
Was there a reason not to ignore it? I pointed out that then "spontaneous nationwide rebellion that the leaders of the rising were hoping for never materialized" and unless the limited Shannonbridge incident constitutes proof of a nationwide rebellion, it hardly needs to be addressed.Nice to see that you ignore the Counter command by Eoin McNeill. Forces from the Midlands and Galway were on their way up to Dublin only to turn back at Shannonbridge Offaly on McNeill's orders.
Not disagreeing with you, although I'd dispute how aware or planned this aftermath would have been. Ultimately the rising was not a success on the part of the IRB, but a failure on the part of the British government.Pearse knew what level of support there was and was not. His intentions succeeded. The Rising changed people's opinions immediately after it, not simply because of the shootings, but because many men were arrested and interned to Dublin or England despite not being involved in the Rising (though were members of the IRB)
In short, Irish independence was brought about more by British incompetence than Irish sacrifice. That we choose to remember it as our own Thermopylae doesn't really change that.0 -
Yep. That's the reason our state-funded schools are 100% secular, and we don't have any priests and bishops sitting on the 'ethics' boards of our state funded hospitals dictating what procedures in relation to female fertility are acceptable.
No siree.
Little or nothing to do with Rome itself. Ireland has it's own brand of "Catholicism".
Guess what? The Minister asked for the said schools to be changed, and guess what? Many families said "on your bike sunshine". No church or Pope put a gun to the parent's head on that one
By the way, get that silly notion that Ireland is "securalists" and "plural" out of your head. It is wishfull thinking. And full abortion has been rejected, North and South, time and time again. You don't need to be a holy joe to realise that killing is wrong (ie full abortion)
Private firms and the State are more than welcome to stump up money and buy out these Church runned/patroned hospitals and schools and their property
If we were listening to the Pope, we would still have no divorce and still ban rubber johnnies0 -
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Isn't it all very convenient that whenever anything goes wrong, it's never anything to do with the Vatican, even when it was the bishops directly appointed by them who did wrong?
It's a strange, strange organisation that's for sure and the extent to which it manages to blind so many people to its serious failings is impressive.
The so-called survey of parents was only carried out in a small number of areas and not publicised by the Dept of Education. Asking parents to effectively choose a school that doesn't yet exist is a pig in a poke. Most parents in Ireland have never set foot in an Educate Together school and have no idea how they operate. It's no surprise at all that the status quo is a safer option to choose, that doesn't mean it's ultimately the better option.
I'm a parent, we have no non-religious school option in our area and no we were not surveyed and no new schools will be built in this area. Our taxes help pay for these schools but they are legally permitted to treat our children as second-class citizens and refuse them a place on the grounds of 'ethos'.
Why can't Ireland be secularist and pluralist? Do you think the return of effectively a catholic monoculture is something to be aspired to? We saw where that led.
In every referendum since 1983 the Irish electorate have refused to further restrict abortion - but no government has given them the opportunity to vote for abortion. There are strong grounds to believe that a vote to reverse the eighth amendment would now pass. I don't see how the North's poisonous sectarian politics add value to this discussion, or indeed any other really.
No idea what you mean by 'full abortion' but the complete evacuation of the contents of the uterus would be medically desirable, I'd imagine.
The idea that we should pay again to buy the schools that we already pay for is pathetic.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Of course it isnt. What kind of a republic excludes over a quarter of the population?0
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Crooked Jack wrote: »Of course it isnt. What kind of a republic excludes over a quarter of the population?
That would depend on what justifucation said republic had for excluding said quarter of the population. You point is also a bit vauge on what said people are excluded from doing.
Open to correction, but as far as i know there's nothing in the Irish constitution proclaiming such an exclusion.Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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I reckon once the last cohort of true believers shuffles off you'll get a more secular state. Too many people I know don't want to make waves, especially if there's in heritence involved.
My mother in law is a true believer and if she ever found out we didn't get married in a church she would disown my wife.0 -
Isn't it all very convenient that whenever anything goes wrong, it's never anything to do with the Vatican, even when it was the bishops directly appointed by them who did wrong?
Specific Examples of this are ?The so-called survey of parents was only carried out in a small number of areas and not publicised by the Dept of Education. Asking parents to effectively choose a school that doesn't yet exist is a pig in a poke. Most parents in Ireland have never set foot in an Educate Together school and have no idea how they operate. It's no surprise at all that the status quo is a safer option to choose, that doesn't mean it's ultimately the better option.
Quinn never had the support of the parents in the first place.As far as Quinn and the Anti Catholic mob were concerend, they assumed that all that was needed to be done was take posession of the school buildings.
Parents want the right to choose, and not have social engineerers and minorities tell them what they should have. A tiny tiny tiny noisey minority in the media and the usual 12 or so suspects on sites like this waffle on about the need for secularism / separation of Church v State. REality is , it is not supported to the extent that they wished, and that was utterly predictable.
Choosing that Status quo dosen't mean it's ultimately the worse option either.
I'm a parent, we have no non-religious school option in our area
Where is the nearest Educate together School? Anything under 2 hours is no excuse! People send their kids to boarding school ffs.
and no we were not surveyed and no new schools will be built in this area. Our taxes help pay for these schools
"Our taxes", you must have a huge paying jobs so. You would swear that the holy joe's / people content with status quo don't pay taxes either? You are in a minority. Pool together like minded people and campagin to the Minister. You sound like someone who wants everything handed to you. Why didn't you and like minded people not make yer views clear when you noted that you were not surveyed?
but they are legally permitted to treat our children as second-class citizens and refuse them a place on the grounds of 'ethos'.
Ah, the usual crap, "second class citizen" because society won't accept YOUR beliefs, as oppose to the child's.
You are free to educate the child yourself.
You sound like you live in the Middle of know where. Where specifically are you from, as you say you have no other options, presumably within a 20-50 mile radius.
Why can't Ireland be secularist and pluralist?
Majority don't accept it. Ireland most certaintly ain't at that stage yet, despite all the protests and waffle from the media and "official Ireland"Do you think the return of effectively a catholic monoculture is something to be aspired to? We saw where that led.
Well, when your alternative is self obsession, airy fairy wishy washy half baked liberal ideas and whatever your having yourself .........
In every referendum since 1983 the Irish electorate have refused to further restrict abortion - but no government has given them the opportunity to vote for abortion. There are strong grounds to believe that a vote to reverse the eighth amendment would now pass.
Evidence of that is where? You are one foolishly naive person to think that full abortion would pass in the SOuth or the North. "Strong grounds"? Prove it
I don't see how the North's poisonous sectarian politics add value to this discussion, or indeed any other really.
What are you waffling on about?
It was an example where a majority of all communitites in NI , irrespective of their background, share a common ground - opposition to full abortion, hardly sectarian or posonous where both communities can agree on some issues.
Your the sectarian attacking Catholic Views, I simply pointed out an example of where other groups share similar attitudes.
No idea what you mean by 'full abortion' but the complete evacuation of the contents of the uterus would be medically desirable, I'd imagine.
Sorry abortion on demand, as oppose to the limited and accepted scenerios where abortion may occur.
Desirable for who?
The idea that we should pay again to buy the schools that we already pay for is pathetic.
What the State pays is actually peanuts! Like it or not, the Church run hospitals and schools are a massive burden off the State, if the State actually owned them , themselves.
It is clear that you are a bigot and advocate for murder.0
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