Formalising a group

dahamsta · 19-02-2003 6:54pm #1

As the proposed data retention bill goes forward, somewhat secretively, I feel that it's time that our group sinks or swims. To that end, can I ask if anyone here is interested in becoming a member of a committee/council to take this a step forward? I'll gladly travel to Dublin if a meeting is necessary, but I don't feel it would be very constructive if no-one's going to be there.

adam

yellum · 20-02-2003 8:56am

Count me in.

sceptre · 20-02-2003 10:52am

Ditto. I fear you may be right that if this thing doesn't get going relatively quickly it'll be stillborn.

seanodonnell · 20-02-2003 11:30am

I'm interested, my job doesnt leave me with a huge amount of free time I can rely on, but i'll do what i can to help.

corley · 21-02-2003 10:45pm

I would be interested in meeting up aswell. I'm involved in
the ICCL's e-rights group and think it makes sense for a
dedicated group such as that proposed here and our own organisation (which as someone pointed out) has a wider mandate to hook up and support each other.

I'll be at the Department's "consultation process" on Monday
- if anyone else here will be there (unlikely I know given
the way it's being organised) we could meet up afterwards.

Evil Phil · 24-02-2003 5:50pm

I'll be back in Ireland in 12 days time, actually make that 14 what with Jet Lag etc so thats March the 10th.

You can count me in after that date. I agree with corleys points about hooking up and supporting each other. Perhaps we can use the ICCLs "umbrella" to drum up support. Personally I could use their experience (and maybe someone from Ireland Offline) as I really don't know about lobbying the government or raising public awarness. So far my experience has been letter writing for Amnesty International.

<afterthought>

em... Whats our group called?

</afterthought>

TJM · 25-02-2003 2:00pm

Count me in. I'm a (non practicing) lawyer with an interest in the area of data protection / freedom of information. I can be contacted at tjnospam1@eircom.net (disposable email address!). I'd be delighted to help out.

TJ McIntyre

ps - the next concern will be the proposals floating around in the Department of Justice to introduce a national id card... but that's another day's work.

mckillnm · 25-02-2003 2:59pm

Hi,

So I got off my ass and registered to post this reply... Great to see a small(?) group who care about digital rights.

There was a great section last week on NewsTalk in the morning (Thursday... I think?), about the Data retention legislation.

Count me in too.... I've got here via the slashdot story.

The page [http://www.dataprivacy.ie/7nr240203.htm ] from the Data Protection Commissioner makes for interesting reading! Just who was involved in creating this animal? The posting from "Cool Newbie" about the meeting was very interesting and informative.

One of the worrying things about this is just how easy (in the electronic domain) it might be to get around what they are trying to store about the only record you might leave is a phone call..;-(

But what now?

Time to start lobbying the local TD's me thinks?
Does any body know of a opposition TD who does NOT share the view of the Data Protection Commissioner?

That my 0.5c for the moment.

-Mark

zg3409 · 25-02-2003 3:05pm

I would love to help. What can I do?
Any planned meetings?
Who should I talk to?

E-mail me if you need a hand, dan at post dot com

Victor · 25-02-2003 3:24pm

I think I would be interested.

How far are we interested in going? How do we break down the rights of (1) the state / state organisations (2) non-state organisations (3) individuals (4) parties and information outside Ireland.

regi · 25-02-2003 3:28pm

I'm interested in helping out where I can.

dahamsta · 25-02-2003 3:45pm

Sorry folks, I ain't had a lot of free time lately. I'm just here to answer questions:

em... Whats our group called?

Suggestions are welcome. Personally, I'd like the words "electronic" and "freedom" in our name, but, like, whatever.

Time to start lobbying the local TD's me thinks?

Yes.

Does any body know of a opposition TD who does NOT share the view of the Data Protection Commissioner?

Most of them won't understand the issue.

What can I do?

To start off, see above.

Any planned meetings?

There'll have to be one soon.

How far are we interested in going?

As far as it takes to ensure that our data is protected from abuse and misuse? In a non-violent fashion.

How do we break down the rights of (1) the state / state organisations (2) non-state organisations (3) individuals (4) parties and information outside Ireland.

I dunno. Could you kick us off Victor?

adam

karlin · 26-02-2003 12:18am

Regarding TDs: I'd suggest approaching ANY TD. It's not really fair to say they don't understand the issue; even people who feel strongly about this issue often don't fully understand it and all its implications. I know I don't, and I seek a wide range of opinions to help form my own and constantly reweigh what I hear. The experts themselves disagree.

Everyone understands the idea of retaining records, and it is easy enough to explain what data traffic is. But it's harder to explain why it shouldn't be retained for long periods of time in large databases. And why the security concerns being voiced are either not reasonable or valid or worth trading away something as intangible, and therefore often undervalued, as our personal or business privacy. You need to be able to argue this clearly yourself to take the argument to a politician.

I often explain this intangibility with Real World examples -- 1) what if the guards wanted you to hand over your house keys, which they promise to keep locked up safely at the local station, and would need only if they found out you had done something wrong and needed to search your house. Who among us would agree to that? But *why* wouldn't you? Therein lies the central issue -- we sometimes can't define 'privacy' but we know it when we see it and we know what we like -- at least in the Real rather than virtual world; and 2) what if the government said from now on every letter you sent requires you to submit your name as sender and the name of the recipient and the time you sent the letter, on a form, which will be stored in case they find you did something wrong in the future; and what if you had to do same for every letter you received. And had to fill in a form and give it to the government every time you buy something, or every time you go to the library to do some research -- just in case you eventually do something where someone would like to check your past activities. Then 3), ask what if you had to submit all your financial records or business records on a daily basis to your local phone company to store in a special vault for three years. That'll scare 'em!

The only reason TDs don't understand the issues is that they have tons of issues to understand and none of their constituents is making them feel this is particularly important. If they understand this as an issue about privacy, rising costs to consumers, and one that is hostile to both Irish business and inward investment, and they think their constituents care, it will be discussed. It is silly to expect them to act on something they don;t yet see as an issue because no one is effectively raising it as an issue. Squeaky wheels get the grease.

I have a press release from Sinn Fein's Angus O Snodaigh, who has today already put a question (not answered) to the taoiseach on the cabinet's data retention scheme put in place last April. There are many if not most of TDs in Labour and the Greens who would also oppose this bill, and Fine Gael -- the latter in particular on the anti-business aspects.n I have a feeling FF's John McGuinness would have some problems with supporting 3 years of data retention.

Let the party leaders of all parties know how you feel. Ask them to inquire about the April direction from cabinet. Get their stance on data retention. Feel free to send them my columns [grin]. There will be a big story this Friday. Just wait -- it probably will be the one you'll want to mail, if you're going to send TDs something. Letters and phone calls and faxes are better than emails.

And get this group off the ground so it can start doing this kind of work collectively, too.

Incidentally, McDowell referred repeatedly to the pro-security side in this debate as "the securocrats" at the Monday forum -- which I think indicates he is open to persuasion if the arguments are solid, well-formed, articulate, and RIGHT. But someone has to get out there and start making them.

Regards --

Karlin

TJM · 26-02-2003 1:24am

When contacting your TD, you might like to point out the irony that the Oireachtas showed no interest in privacy issues until the Morris Tribunal sought to discover TD's phone records. The issue of principle is the same: perhaps that incident has demonstrated to TDs that a data retention regime may boomerang back to affect them personally.

Primary individuals to contact are:

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell TD, SC (minister@justice.ie);
The Data Protection Commissioner, Joe Meade (public support will undoubtedly strengthen his position): info@dataprivacy.ie;
TDs on the Dail Committee on Justice, Equality & Law Reform (which will ultimately scrutinise any legislation) These are:

Seán Ardagh (Fianna Fáil) (Chairman)
Joe Costello (Labour)
Máire Hoctor (Fianna Fáil)
Dinny McGinley (Fine Gael)
Finian McGrath (Other)
Paul McGrath (Fine Gael)
Breeda Moynihan-Cronin (Labour)
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Fianna Fáil)
Charlie O'Connor (Fianna Fáil)
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fáil)
Peter Power (Fianna Fáil)

(according to the website, emails for each of these are in the format firstname.surname@oireachtas.ie).

NinjaBart · 26-02-2003 1:37am

Karlin,

I agree completely about contacting TDs as a way to get things done. Whether it actually gets anything done is obviously something to wait and see, but I would be very suspicious of any form of 'activism' (in quotes because I would hate for this to be an 'activist' group) that didn't attempt to lobby political bodies in a proper way. It would seem to me to damage the aims of the group as others who share those aims may be pigeonholed as a result.

spod · 26-02-2003 4:42am

Raises hand timidly, count me in (as much as impending dissertaion deadline/finals etc. will permit).

Oh and re. John McGuinness, I know his son quite well so next time I bump into him I'll get him to have a word with his da

karlin · 26-02-2003 11:11am

Just FYI on TDs: I've posted the majority of Aengus O Snodaigh's comments from a Sinn Fein press release yesterday here:

http://radio.weblogs.com/0103966/2003/02/26.html#a1541

He asked the Taoiseach about the April retention decision by cabinet and it's quite clear the taoiseach had no idea what he was talking about. Of course a data retention bill *hasn't* been published.

Karlin

Formalising a group

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