Swearing on the bible in court

acurno · 28-06-2011 3:32pm #1

Was just in the courts there, had to get something signed by an officiary for some child protection thing for school.

Anyway, declaration had to be read out in front of him etc, but before I knew it, he shoved a bible in my hand and started the whole 'I swear to almight God that the information in this document....' It didn't massively bother me but I was a bit taken aback that this was done. Obviously I swore to my almighty God to get his signature (plus paying a tenner for the privilege).

What would have been the case if I refused? Or taking my situation out, whats the procedure if I had to give evidence in court and I refused to swear on the bible, what do they do then?

Outdated to say the least. There was a muslim man behind me in the queue as well, I should really have stayed back and witnessed his turn...

magicbastarder · 28-06-2011 3:36pm

i had understood that if you declare yourself to be an atheist, there's a secular vow you can make.

philologos · 28-06-2011 3:37pm

There must be an alternative to that surely?

Even for Christians that could be contentious. In the same book one would be swearing on:

Matthew 5:33-37 wrote:

“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one

antiskeptic · 28-06-2011 4:48pm

A pal of mine was the defendant in a high-profile case and was planning on perjuring himself. He's not a believer (indeed, he insists I don't mention the G-word) but isn't particularly antagonathiest either.

He must have some subconcious sense of God though, because when he was swearing on the bible in court, he crossed his fingers behind his back. I kid you not!

mikemac · 28-06-2011 4:54pm

It's not a problem, you just make an affirmation. Clerk of the court sees this all the time, you won't be the first or the last

Though I suppose not everyone is brave enough to ask for this for fear of standing out or making a scene. But some do

Here is what currently exists

1. Form of oaths to be taken by witnesses

“I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”.

2. Form of affirmation to be made by witnesses

“I, A.B., do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence

I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”.

If you are interested in a bit of reading the Law Reform Commission did a lot of work on this and recommended the religious oath be abolished

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/rOaths.htm
Heavy reading but it's interesting

haydar · 28-06-2011 4:58pm

mikemac wrote: »

It's not a problem, you just make an affirmation. Clerk of the court sees this all the time, you won't be the first or the last

Though I suppose not everyone is brave enough to ask for this for fear of standing out or making a scene. But some do

Here is what currently exists

If you are interested in a bit of reading the Law Reform Commission did a lot of work on this and recommended the religious oath be abolished

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/rOaths.htm
Heavy reading but it's interesting

End of thread

recedite · 28-06-2011 9:25pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

antagonathiest

Nice one

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 29-06-2011 12:00am

I'd be worried about affirming if I was a defendant, some jurors might be prejudiced against the non-religious.

kylith · 29-06-2011 2:21pm

Bear in mind that you have to ask for the non-religious option in advance.

ShooterSF · 29-06-2011 4:25pm

If I ever end up in this situation I will have to think hard on whther to request a copy of the Gospel of the FSM or a copy of Aesops fables to swear on. I'm leaning to the latter due to how well it is known.

I'm not expecting to get it but as the alternative isn't offered up front I'll play naive

mikemac · 29-06-2011 4:34pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I'd be worried about affirming if I was a defendant, some jurors might be prejudiced against the non-religious.

This was raised by the Law Reform Commission.
Same situation with witnesses who will not swear a oath there is the potential the jurors will discount what they are saying.
"Why won't they swear, hmm........." *suspicious glance*

The proposal is to do away with the oath and the current affirmation and use this:

“ I, A.B., do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I am aware that if I knowingly give false evidence I may be prosecuted for perjury.”

Recommandations were made years ago and nobody seems bothered at pushing this forward. Certainly no Minister has ever shown an interest in this that I know of

IRLConor · 29-06-2011 4:42pm

I didn't know when you were able to ask for the non-religious option, so I ended up swearing on the bible since they were fairly motoring through the jury selection.

I figure that the substance of the oath/affirmation* is a hell of a lot more important than the wrapping put on it. I don't see the point in adding the sweary bit TBH, it doesn't really add anything.

* "I will well and truly try the issue whether the accused is (or are) guilty or not guilty of the offence (or the several offences) charged in the indictment preferred against him (or her or them) and a true verdict give according to the evidence."

strobe · 29-06-2011 6:48pm

I'm almost certain that last time I was up in Dun Laoghaire district court I was asked just for the affirmation without requesting it at any time. Definitely don't remember a Bible making an appearance at any time. I wonder is it at the DJ's discretion which they use as the 'default' oath? Or maybe certain courts have a habit of using one over the other? {Or maybe she just pegged me as a godless bastard straight off the bat and decided to take the lead? :pac:}

Any law professionals on here got any insight into this?

Doctor DooM · 01-07-2011 11:10am

So DooM was out one night on the beer with the Nocturnal forum.

He ended up chatting with a very nice young lady, things were going well. We got onto the topic of employment and it turned out she was a court clerk and a large part of her job was the swearing in.

Me being all big and clever said "What if you didn't believe in god? What if you were an Atheist, or Jewish?"

She gives me a stony look and replies something like "Well Doomy, atheists have their own little vow they can swear.

And you may not know this, but jews actually do believe in god."

Swearing on the bible in court

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