Did the .50 Cal change the game in NI?

yubabill1 · 02-01-2013 12:05pm #1

Remember soldiers refusing to go out on patrol for fear of snipers or helicopters making "forced landings"? Discuss.

yubabill1 · 02-01-2013 2:42pm

OK Let me try to kick it off.
The US military commissioned a report after the 2003 invasion of Iraq into what equipment worked and what didn't: The .50 cal sniper rifle was categorised in "worked" and they found it's use spread terror and confusion among the insurgents.
The landmines planted in the 70's forced HM forces to deploy from helicopters, which worked well until Col Gaddafi supplied large calibre Russian machine guns (and non-functioning anti-aircraft missiles). If you watched the film Charlie Wilson's War, you will see the significance of these.
I just think this is something that needs to be explored in the context of History.

Dogwatch · 02-01-2013 8:49pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

Remember soldiers refusing to go out on patrol for fear of snipers or helicopters making "forced landings"? Discuss.

That is a very broad statement to discuss.

Perhaps you could provide evidence for both events taking place.

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 9:53am

Ok, clearly you don't remember these reports and I am working from memory.
I am talking about late 80's early 90's wrt the sniping and early 90's till about 93 wrt heli forced landings.
I may be wrong, but I think one made a forced landing on a gaa pitch in Armagh at that time, too.
There seemed to be an inordinate number of forced landings in the time indicated and only in NI.

Dogwatch · 03-01-2013 11:25am

So, where is the connection with 50 cal guns. There are any number of reasons for unplanned landings and because a landing is flagged as "emergency" does not necessarily mean it is one.
No evidence, no discussion!!

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 2:22pm

Mister, if you had ears and eyes around the time I talk about, you would know.
Talk to someone who followed the news around then and i would advise you brush up on your ballistics knowledge before talking to me again.

Dogwatch · 03-01-2013 6:12pm

Keep following the news as they are well known as being the purveyors of truth and are also well connected to the military.

Take to someone who has first hand knowledge of what happened there and how many "emergency" landings were just that. But if believe the tales in news, good for you.

Dogwatch · 03-01-2013 6:21pm

I was going to engage with you on this but I am of the opinion you are a troll and wont waste anymore time on you.
You other contributions to boards.ie are equally as bland and have no substance.

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 8:04pm

You really should read the op. I am asking a question which you are not qualified to answer.
Btw I contribute to a host of scientific forums on linkedin, where no doubt you will wish me to return and where, at least my comments are treated with a modicum of respect. We have trolls there, too, you know.
I don't know if rte news footage is available from the period and I might look it up when I get time.
Ps I am well known to a few national journalists, who value my opinion and who have used them in ground-breaking work, which I will not bore you with; just in case you think I do not appreciate the nuances of journalism.
Pps my sources are not journo-related: I have good contacts on all 3 sides wrt NI.

Dogwatch · 03-01-2013 9:05pm

You seem to know a lot about my qualifications all of a sudden!!!!!!!!

You still have not provided any evidence to support anything you have said, just more rhetoric.
maybe you are not a troll but something worse, a journo in disguise.

I have no issue with anything you say, i would prefer if you would back it with some evidence.
Until then it is just waffle

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 9:13pm

Have googled "sniper kill northern ireland" and this looks good at very quick perusal

http://www.eliteukforces.info/special-air-service/sas-operations/ira-sniper-team/

Will be back with a lesser link from The Independent newspaper

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 9:20pm

Here is the other result from my quick trawl

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/sniper-kills-soldier-in-border-attack-1485630.html

Less specific, I agree.

i also categorically remember a ford fiesta car recovered with a 0.50 cal sniper rifle welded into the back of it, capable of firing when the rear hatch was opened and also a very poorly-stocked 0.50 cal rifle was recovered and exhibited; struck me as extremely uncomfortable to shoot and likely the stock wrist could break in the process.
The rifles were often abandoned after a kill.

PS No, not a journo, but I do write to them.

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 9:34pm

Need some time to get heli forced landings- sheer volume. Don't think anybody died, so it's going to be tricky. from what I have seen, reports prioritised when fatalities occurred.

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 10:25pm

For the helis, some circumstantial data is all I have for now. It's buried deep.

http://federal-circuits.vlex.com/vid/clark-quigley-christina-leigh-reid-38450345

"Between 1981 and 1986, Johnson wrote and sent a series of letters regarding the procurement and development of remote-control bombs to Peter Eamon Maguire, an electronic systems expert in the Republic of Ireland who is named a defendant in this case, see supra note 1. The letters ("the Clondalkin letters") describe Johnson's efforts to perfect the technology of the remote-control bombs that have been used by the PIRA in its attacks upon persons and property in Northern Ireland and elsewhere since 1972.[fn2] In 1987 the Irish national police seized these letters from a hiding place in Maguire's home in Clondalkin, Dublin.

Appellant Martin Peter Quigley is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and a United States resident. Like Johnson, he has been involved in ongoing efforts to improve the technology of PIRA weaponry. In December 1988, in a conversation over a pay telephone, Quigley solicited Johnson's advice regarding the development of a surface-to-air missile system to "counteract" British military helicopters in Northern Ireland. Between 1988 and 1989, Quigley regularly encouraged appellant Christina Leigh Reid to join an amateur rocketry society and familiarize herself with the construction and operation of rocket motors for use in the anti-helicopter missile system. In the summer of 1989, Quigley participated in the acquisition of a .50 caliber rifle for export to the Republic of Ireland".

Will dig again.

neilled · 03-01-2013 10:26pm

The OP is talking about the deployment of a "Sniper" team/s by PIRA in south armagh in the early 1990's who were armed with Barrett .05 rifles and used a car (a mazda if i recall correctly) with a hole cut in the boot and a drop down number plate.

Was it a game changer?

Psychologically it was a problem and soldiers were allegedly disciplined over refusing to carry out patrols or the fabrication of patrols they were assigned to carry out.

The 0.5/12.7 round is normally used against aircraft, soft skinned vehicles and light armour for the purpose of carrying out a mobility kill - nothings going anywhere if there's a round through the engine block.

There was wild speculation about the identity of the snipers and the tabloids had a field day with all kinds of fanciful stories, none of them close to the truth. The republican media for obvious reasons encouraged these stories. Part of the psychological fear of the 0.5 rifles was that in theory as a British soldier you could be plodding along and wham, your buddy could explode in a welter of blood and guts and the sniper could be firing from outside the range in which you could engage them (incidentally now a problem in Afghanistan) as most assault rifles are effective up to 300m (as individual firers).

Similarly body armour was for the most no good either (and still isn't) most modern kevlar body armour will only stop pistol rounds and the plates commonly used by most military forces will only stop what the majority of their enemies use - for NATO thats typically 7.62 russian rounds. Body armour that can protect against rounds like the 0.5 is exceptionally heavy and restricts its wearer to largely static roles and isn't commonly issued. Of course if the round strikes anywhere other than the plate, the wearer is also in severe trouble as round will easily penetrate soft armour.

Having said all that

The PIRA teams weren't snipers in the classical sense, they were carrying out attacks well within range of standard infantry weapons 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rounds and relied on a system of "dickers" and clever concealment in their car. Had they fired at an inopportune moment or been spotted then they would have been in trouble.

However, one must look at what was going on behind the scenes as both sides were sending out the feelers towards a negotiated settlement or ceasfire at least. Furthermore it might be noted that these incidents of ill discipline were few and there was no widespread breakdown of military discipline in British forces deployed on the border area.

The British Army have always been content to loose people on training accidents and on operations, Northern Ireland was no exception and loosing a few enlisted men and junior officers would have not bothered them.

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 10:36pm

At last!

Well argued, neilled.

My heli argument has been strongly denied by the HM source I talked to.....

neilled · 03-01-2013 10:44pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

At last!

Well argued, neilled.

My heli argument has been strongly denied by the HM source I talked to.....

If i recall correctly the team fired at the Royal Naval vessel in carlingford.... and missed. Sweet FA chance of them hitting a helicopter moving in the way the army air corps were trained to do, to minimise the chances of being shot down.

A more real threat to rotary wing aviation would have been the use of the Libyan supplied Dshk machine guns to bring down a helicopter (this was tried and failed) or the acquisition or building of a modern SAM system with sufficient quantities of missiles which also failed. If UK forces had lost control of the skies it could well have been a game changer.

Regardless of the entry of this new weapon into the mix, during the late 1980's both sides had came to the realisation that a purely military victory was going to be impossible and it was only a matter of time before an attempt at a ceasefire or settlement would have to be made.

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 10:55pm

I remember there was a lot of speculation about the capability of DSHK users. They apparently developed an ambush technique, waiting for helis to land or take off. Technique was entirely random, due to the way helis were deployed- had no way of knowing when/where helis were deployed.

this link mentions 20 DSHK 12.7 x 107 HMG's in the PIRA inventory
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/weapons.html

It's the DSHK's I have had in mind, but now you mention it, I vaguely remember the first incident you describe.

I distinctly remember "reading between the lines" of reports at the time.

Klunk001 · 03-01-2013 11:01pm

Youtube and wikipedia are your friend. Lots of stuff on there from all sides in the conflict. 50 cals, heavy Russian 12.7mm, GPMG's, barrack busters. Some of the heavies are filmed during attacks on helicopters and it all can be viewed on youtube, inc the DSHK's. Just put in the usual buzz words. South Armagh, bandit country.

I know of an RAF Puma that was hit by a mk15 barrack buster either going in or coming out of Newtownhamilton. It was a miracle everybody got out of that alive, remember seeing in lying in afield on its side before it was recovered.

There's was a very big hole in a wall at the square in Crossmaglen (XMG to some). I'm not sure if it's still there, It's the result of a .50 cal round which had gone through the body armour of a soldier that the round killed.

Looking at the wall after that event every time you went out on foot patrol I'm sure wasn't great for morale.

yubabill1 · 03-01-2013 11:18pm

As far as I know, the 0.50 cal, as an anti-personnel weapon was first fired in anger in NI, with devastating effect. As neilled says, its original role from early 1900's was anti-materiel.
The Barratt was originally a civilian weapon, available around 1982.
This weapon alone was not a game changer, of itself.
The heli attacks are of much greater significance. Again, I refer to Charlie Wilson's War, where the US covertly supplied the Afghans with SAM's which were used in late 80's to take out Soviet helis. Writing was on the wall when Soviets could not deploy troops (had to use helis-large country)
In NI, as before, land-based transport was largely abandoned due to extensive land mines and UK forces used helis almost exclusively...
Hence, the arguments about these "forced landings"

yubabill1 · 04-01-2013 1:04am

Hi Klunk001,

had a look on youtube and yes, the ITV report is the one I remember. The RTE documentary crew footage sparks a memory as well.

I think you have to make your own mind up about whether a heli was downed or not.
Looks like this is always going to be a moot point.

tac foley · 04-01-2013 12:29pm

neilled wrote: »

The British Army have always been content to loose people on training accidents and on operations, Northern Ireland was no exception and loosing a few enlisted men and junior officers would have not bothered them.

This is simply not true. NO army worth its salt is 'content' as you put it, to lose [note spelling] a single man, either in action or in training.

What an army does is to ACCEPT that casualties will most certainly occur in both activities - 'train hard, fight easy'.

Your comment depicts a callousness that is more akin to that shown by any third world so-called militia.

tac

PS - the last soldier to die from the application of a .50cal rifle, L/Bdr Stephen Restorick, lived just up the road from me.

Klunk001 · 04-01-2013 9:08pm

I suppose in some ways the .50 cal and 12.7mm were a game changer, but not a game winner. It's a fact that the IRA in that part of the world were very intent on shooting down as many military heli's as they could. It's also a fact the the British military took that threat very seriously.

Being from that part of the world it was very obvious that British military heli's started to get a lot of "extras" bolted on, in and around the time claims were been made of the acquisition of SAM's and HMG's by the IRA. These "extras" could be seen on both AAC heli types, the Lynx and Gazelle. Not so much on the RAF Puma's and Wessex, but there all the same.

Flight operation also changed. The aircraft either flew very high ( out of range from small arms fire ) or very, very low and with that very fast.
"Flights of three" now became the norm. That is two AAC Lynx helicopter gunships providing top cover shadowing RAF Helis as they went about in the support helicopter role.

The Puma that made the forced landing at Newtownhamilton was as the result of either a direct to indirect hit from a barrack buster damaging the tail rotor. I'm nearly sure it was departing at the time.

Had the mortor exploded while the heli was on the pad embarking and disembarking troops it would have caused in all likelyhood a lot of fatalities with the loss of an airframe, possibly making the HMG'S redundant as an anti aircraft weapon in that part of the world.

smcgiff · 04-01-2013 9:18pm

Tac,

You may be a little too trusting of the officers sitting in comfort directing troop movements - history for sure, but hardly ancient - think of the soldiers sent over the top in WW1.

tac foley · 04-01-2013 10:26pm

smcgiff wrote: »

Tac,

You may be a little too trusting of the officers sitting in comfort directing troop movements - history for sure, but hardly ancient - think of the soldiers sent over the top in WW1.

That was way back when, a hundred years next year, in fact, and throughout WW1, many regimental commanders - Colonels and Lt Colonels - went over the top with their men, and died alongside them.

I was an NCO, SNCO and WO in the British Army - every rank from Private to Warrant Officer 1st Class over a period of sixteen and half years, and then served a further for sixteen years as an officer, and can tell you most sincerely that unless you led from the front, you wouldn't have lasted two minutes.

In the Northern Ireland 'troubles', the subject of this rather odd thread, EVERY patrolling and or search/ATO unit on the ground was led by a Lt or 2/Lt, sometimes a Captain - taking the same risks as his men.

Please let me know when you find any British Army officer 'content' to take casualties. :mad: x 10

I'm waiting right here.

tac

smcgiff · 05-01-2013 1:21am

There are officers and there are officers, and I don't have the same faith in HQ command as you seem to have. I'm not picking on the BA here, it's just I think it's a little naive to think HQ would not risk men for a potential strategic gain. Even if only a slight chance of a gain.

And humans haven't developed much in a 100 years, although I'd accept the BA is more professional now. It would have been hard not to.

tac foley · 05-01-2013 1:31am

smcgiff wrote: »

There are officers and there are officers, and I don't have the same faith in HQ command as you seem to have. I'm not picking on the BA here, it's just I think it's a little naive to think HQ would not risk men for a potential strategic gain. Even if only a slight chance of a gain.

And humans haven't developed much in a 100 years, although I'd accept the BA is more professional now. It would have been hard not to.

You have still missed the point entirely.

I never said that risk is not part of any potential military gain.

What I said was the the British Army does not have people in positions of command who are content - if you look up the word to see what it actually means - to see casualties in either training or operations. Your obviously low opinion of the British Army should not allow you to mistake 'acceptance' for 'content'.

I do not believe that this forum should be made a bandstand for anti-British feeling or apparent glee and delight in the fate of those who serve their country. If, however, this should be the case - and I look to you as a moderator to either confirm or deny it - then it would be best if I left you to it.

tac

long range shooter · 05-01-2013 2:32am

Any 50 cal round will penetrate any known body armour today,so its hard to protect yourself against it.
So therefor a devastating weapon in the hands of a sniper.
That is with a standard issue nato fmj round.
However if you use the Raufoss MK 211 round,which is used on light armoured vehicles,aircrafts,helicopters the effects will be even more devestating.
It expodes after penetration,and damages enemies behind walls,inside armoured vehicles,and ignites jetfuel if used against aircrafts.
The international comitee of the red cross wanted this banned because of the damage done against personell,but is still being used by US snipers in Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211

smcgiff · 05-01-2013 11:55am

Tac,

I've gone out of my way to emphasise this is not an excluisely BA issue. I'd go further and say YOU are one trying to make it such.

In Vietnam, a war that went on for years, the highest level US casualty was at captain level, which may be an officer, but hardly high ranking. Yet, there were very few of even those killed. One of which was the father of a friend.

If a point is being missed I suggest it's not by me.

Donny5 · 05-01-2013 12:06pm

smcgiff wrote: »

In Vietnam, a war that went on for years, the highest level US casualty was at captain level, which may be an officer, but hardly high ranking.

You'll want to be checking that one again. There's twelve U.S. General Officers on the Vietnam Memorial wall, including at least one, William Bond, who was killed by enemy small arms fire.

smcgiff · 05-01-2013 12:09pm

Donny5 wrote: »

You'll want to be checking that one again. There's twelve U.S. General Officers on the Vietnam Memorial wall, including at least one, William Bond, who was killed by enemy small arms fire.

Yip - came back to correct that, 9% of officers that died were above above warrant class. Oops.

Klunk001 · 12-01-2013 10:55pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

Remember soldiers refusing to go out on patrol for fear of snipers or helicopters making "forced landings"? Discuss.

Did a bit of searching on this one. Came across a British military publication, operation Banner, an analysis of military ops in NI. It's in PDF format. Page 67 paragraph 610 Acknowledges a number of Helis did make forced landings due gunfire and Mortor.
Snipers and morale also get a mention, it's a 98 page publication so loads to read.

yubabill1 · 13-01-2013 9:13pm

Page 67 paragraph 610 Acknowledges a number of Helis did make forced landings due gunfire and Mortor.

Excellent piece of research, Klunk001.

Report concedes loss of control of the air would have been very detrimental to HM forces in NI.

Remember, around this time the Square Mile in the City (the financial district) was shut down by a bomb and Downing Street was mortared, among other attacks.

Now, couple the threat of losing control of the air with the mainland bombing campaigns and you have a recipe for talks.

I just want to counter the "official" accounts of what happened, with what I observed, in the name of balance.

CollardGreens · 14-01-2013 2:15am

Just to interject, a friends husband has a Barrett .50 cal and that was the best dang gun I've ever shot in my life ~ I literally got a high shooting that gun. At 75 yards (not sure what that is in metric) we got concerned that it was going through the giant dirt pile behind the board and yup...it was. Biggest bullet I've ever seen!

With the scope I only missed the target by half an inch (again, since I don't know metric I'd say about the size of a ladies little toe). The kick was not bad at all, no more than my 12G.

tac foley · 15-01-2013 10:56am

CollardGreens wrote: »

At 75 yards (not sure what that is in metric) we got concerned that it was going through the giant dirt pile behind the board and yup...it was. Biggest bullet I've ever seen!

That's not a very sensible thing to do. But hey! 1st Amendment and all that, right?

A 750gr .50cal bullet coming back at you at such a short range is going to leave a mark, that's for sure.

Just sayin'.

tac

tricky D · 15-01-2013 4:04pm

tac foley wrote: »

That's not a very sensible thing to do. But hey! 1st Amendment and all that, right?

A 750gr .50cal bullet coming back at you at such a short range is going to leave a mark, that's for sure.

Just sayin'.

tac

We're not doing that any more - no ******* kidding!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhysoS2DC8M

CollardGreens · 16-01-2013 2:02am

Hey Tac, read the constitution....It's the SECOND amendment (gun rights) the first one is freedom of speech. I'm jest say'in.

Tricky, love the video, thanks!

We were shooting a remake of the Gatlin too. It was safe, one of the families in the group owns the land and swamps behind the dirt pile. Worse thing we could have done was hit an alligator and I could use another handbag (wink).

The Barrett was on a tripod and it had a blow-back. Honestly, laying on the ground shooting with the pod there wasn't much kick, my 12G kicked more than the .50 did.

Will probably get to shoot the .50 again next month at the meeting and I got some new toys this year to try out on the dirt pile. No worries, the drinking didn't start till the guns were put up.

Shooting is a great sport, and you can't beat a .50 for a rush!

tac foley · 17-01-2013 2:20pm

CollardGreens wrote: »

Hey Tac, read the constitution....It's the SECOND amendment (gun rights) the first one is freedom of speech. I'm jest say'in.

Thank you for reminding me of the document on the wall in front of my eyeballs. I was not referring to the second, but to the first, your right to post whatever you care to either in speech or in writing, as here.

I've been a life member of the NRA since 4th July 1976, and you?

I'm just sayin' too.

tac

tac foley · 17-01-2013 2:22pm

tricky D wrote: »

We're not doing that any more - no ******* kidding!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhysoS2DC8M

...and that was just a part of the jacket, NOT the complete bullet.

Me, I thought by now that EVERYBODY had seen this jerk in action......

tac

Neutronale · 20-04-2013 4:56pm

http://youtu.be/cTjMw02gc20

meathstevie · 26-04-2013 10:18pm

tac foley wrote: »

...and that was just a part of the jacket, NOT the complete bullet.

Me, I thought by now that EVERYBODY had seen this jerk in action......

tac

He's one lucky man...

On a different note, there's also examples of very effective counter actions by the army when heavy Russian machine guns were used. One example is this :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK5Mzzbw4To. I do not intend by any means to start a debate on the right or wrong of this action from either end but just to illustrate a particular incident.

lanyard · 27-04-2013 1:20pm

Dogwatch wrote: »

You seem to know a lot about my qualifications all of a sudden!!!!!!!!

You still have not provided any evidence to support anything you have said, just more rhetoric.
maybe you are not a troll but something worse, a journo in disguise.

I have no issue with anything you say, i would prefer if you would back it with some evidence.
Until then it is just waffle

Ugh - accusing people of being trolls and journalists straight of the bat is no way to contribute to a thread.

There is plenty of evidence of the scum brigade using gunfire to bring down helios:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIdNwxvQJU4

Neutronale · 28-04-2013 5:32pm

lanyard wrote: »

Ugh - accusing people of being trolls and journalists straight of the bat is no way to contribute to a thread.

There is plenty of evidence of the scum brigade using gunfire to bring down helios:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIdNwxvQJU4

The scum brigade were in the helios

maccored · 08-06-2013 10:42pm

i can remember this being on the news - shooting at helicopter and forcing a helicopter to land. Plus i also remember the british government denying any helicopter was shot down initially. they admitted it had happened after a week or two if i remember correctly. EDIT - maybe they only denied it for hours - i cant remember

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0a1_1356212345

Azwaldo55 · 07-08-2014 4:52pm

The .50 cal rifle is very bulky, hard to smuggle into a region that is infested with security forces, is wasted if it is used by an unskilled operator and will likely be used only one anyway since the shooter will have to escape and leave the weapon behind. A person with an Irish accent during the Troubles sauntering into a gunshop and buying a heavy calibre rifle would have raised alarm bells especially after a successful attack. The obvious place to buy one was in the U.S. and the FBI co-operate with the British intelligence services so a look out for such a purchase would have been quickly discovered and that smuggling avenue pinched off. To set up a sniper attack would require a specially modified vehicle - leaving behind lots of evidence if it is abandoned. Alternatively a specially constructed hide which would take time to construct, potentially giving the game away to the enemy before the attack and would also have to be abandoned. So while the use of the .50 cal would terrify soldiers or helicopter pilots or vehicle drivers its use would be limited and its usefulness would be limited.
The flash of a .50 cal is a dead give away to a counter sniper team and an IRA team risked being killed by a British sniper or by machine gunfire directed at their vehicle or hide.
It would have been far more useful to just shoot off duty members of the security forces or shoot local loyalists figures rather than launch a high risk and wasteful attack on the security forces.
The killing of off duty security force members and bomb attacks on commercial properties and attacks in Britain proved to be far more effective than a direct military style attack.

tac foley · 07-08-2014 9:47pm

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The .50 cal rifle is very bulky, hard to smuggle into a region that is infested with security forces, is wasted if it is used by an unskilled operator and will likely be used only one anyway since the shooter will have to escape and leave the weapon behind. A person with an Irish accent during the Troubles sauntering into a gunshop and buying a heavy calibre rifle would have raised alarm bells especially after a successful attack. The obvious place to buy one was in the U.S. and the FBI co-operate with the British intelligence services so a look out for such a purchase would have been quickly discovered and that smuggling avenue pinched off. To set up a sniper attack would require a specially modified vehicle - leaving behind lots of evidence if it is abandoned. Alternatively a specially constructed hide which would take time to construct, potentially giving the game away to the enemy before the attack and would also have to be abandoned. So while the use of the .50 cal would terrify soldiers or helicopter pilots or vehicle drivers its use would be limited and its usefulness would be limited.
The flash of a .50 cal is a dead give away to a counter sniper team and an IRA team risked being killed by a British sniper or by machine gunfire directed at their vehicle or hide.
It would have been far more useful to just shoot off duty members of the security forces or shoot local loyalists figures rather than launch a high risk and wasteful attack on the security forces.
The killing of off duty security force members and bomb attacks on commercial properties and attacks in Britain proved to be far more effective than a direct military style attack.

I'm not really sure where to start to begin to respond to this post, bearing in mind the almighty number of impossibilities and unlikelihoods it contains. I suppose I could deal with them one at a time, but TBH, but herself wants me to finish painting the spare room.

Are you doing research for a game? More to the point, have you read how the .50 cal rifle was used in the North?

tac, there when it happened.

Azwaldo55 · 10-08-2014 3:14pm

tac foley wrote: »

I'm not really sure where to start to begin to respond to this post, bearing in mind the almighty number of impossibilities and unlikelihoods it contains. I suppose I could deal with them one at a time, but TBH, but herself wants me to finish painting the spare room.

Are you doing research for a game? More to the point, have you read how the .50 cal rifle was used in the North?

tac, there when it happened.

I have read how it was used and from what I have read the IRA snipers were put out of business. They got a handful of British soldiers but they didn't make a dent really in the British presence in the North. It was all sound and fury signifying nothing. The Sniper At Work signs were witty propaganda and sold well in the Shinner shop but other than that the .50 cal made little impact (excuse the pun).

skooterblue2 · 11-08-2014 9:17am

Wars arent always fought on one level ...... The Barrett light 50 were an instrument of terror in South Armagh.
They brought in a revenue stream ..... They had at least two high profile murders, a part time Woman police constable and a young fusilier? I think there was something about it in either of Andy McNabbs or Chris Ryan's Books ...... The sniper was not on his own and was protected by spotters. I would say up to a point it was successful.

In the end the informers gave them up, the IRA is riddled with them. All the lads were caught only to be let out on the Good Friday agreement

Did the .50 Cal change the game in NI?

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