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Alternatives to pay scales in the public sector
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16-04-2015 7:48pm#1Much grumbling has filled various threads regarding incremental progression along a salary scale in the public sector. In industry it was pretty much the norm, similarly so in the major financial institutions and in the insurance business.
However, I gather some banks have moved to abolish pay scales and instead rely upon a bonus system. Generally it involves moving people to somewhere near 90-95% of the going rate for the job, then awarding a 'bonus' of 10-20% per annum.
To manage anything similar in the public service would be difficult, e.g. the carrot of promotion doesn't apply if you're a teacher, and the current Government policy of overturning local management decisions on progressing to the next point on the scale is not a viable one in the long term. (In a prison the statutory remission is 25% to ensure good discipline among the inmates. I'd imagine a school principal probably has the same troubles).
One related problem with the current pay scales is that they factor in the going rate for the job as being somewhere above the mid-point of the scale, i.e. the teacher, nurse, clerical officer is paid at a discount relative to the post-qualification experience they gain, and in a structure in which the pyramid narrows to the extent that promotion is unlikely for the vast majority in the system they end up in a collegiate environment of sorts (some would argue Stockholm Syndrome takes hold) in which they need to work well with their management.
I'd be interested in any links to examples where large financial institutions have managed the transition from incremental salary scales to individualised pay-with-bonus structures.
I suppose one potential difficulty with the public sector is that the transition from pay scales could see 'grade inflation', e.g. at present the Revenue Commissioners are advertising for AO posts in IT and in Compliance. They're unlikely to have much luck with a starting salary of €29k, but neither a basic-plus-bonus system nor the prospect of incremental progression wouldn't necessarily solve that either. The worry would be that the Revenue would add a bell and whistle and convert the post to the next grade up.
Given that there are various grumblings re threats of legal action against the existing financial emergency powers legislation (and that some politicians are privately conceding that the Govt could lose a case) I'm sure that some additional productivity measures will be proposed, but would it be a useful exercise for the pay scale system to be the subject of an independent review as part of that process?2
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Short pay scales are not the worst thing, long ones mean that you lose sight of performance. Perhaps teachers etc should have a couple of grades. like third level, with a more substantial process to move from to the other.
But the real issue is that there is no real focus of productivity, and paying for same, as this would inhibit political stunts.0 -
Gets popcorn......0
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glacial_pace71 wrote: »I suppose one potential difficulty with the public sector is that the transition from pay scales could see 'grade inflation', e.g. at present the Revenue Commissioners are advertising for AO posts in IT and in Compliance. They're unlikely to have much luck with a starting salary of €29k, but neither a basic-plus-bonus system nor the prospect of incremental progression wouldn't necessarily solve that either. The worry would be that the Revenue would add a bell and whistle and convert the post to the next grade up.
AO is a funny one, the bottom of the scale is the same as the lower end of the EO scale, but the steps are quite large and the top of the AO scale is the same as the top of the HEO scale. Sometimes used as a cheaper (in the short term) way of filling a HEO post, as AOs often make AP within a few years they would likely not get to the top of their scale.
Those posts you mention above were almost certainly HEO posts previously, but HEO is not traditionally a direct entry grade.Scrap the cap!
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Reward them with extra time off. Plenty of time off.0
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Splitting the long teachers scale in two, with a merit bar, makes sense to me.0
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Note that the private sector is also full of scales, though maybe not described as such.
Accountant move from apprentices to audit junior to audit senior...and so on............0 -
Note that the private sector is also full of scales, though maybe not described as such.
Accountant move from apprentices to audit junior to audit senior...and so on............
But it is purely at the discretion of the employer when they move up these scales and if they are accompanied by an increase in pay.
If an audit junior is not a) good at their job or b) able to pass the professional exams, then not only will they not advance to audit senior, they will lose their job.0 -
barneystinson wrote: »Gets popcorn......Reward them with extra time off. Plenty of time off.
Mod:
One liner type comments like the above are frowned on in the politics forums, especially in response to a well reasoned, long, thoughtful OP.
The politics cafe allows for the above type posts.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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I think the suggestion of a guaranteed scale for the first number of years while people are learning the job is fine. Then perhaps after 3 or 4 years any increases should be performance related. Guaranteed increments don't provide any incentive for employees to go above and beyond. Some will because it'll be in their nature to be ultra professional but a lot will play the system and just coast along doing the minimum if they can get away with it. Unfortunately, and regardless of whether they work in the public or private sector a large percentage of workers will take the path of least resistance. The systems of remuneration should be designed to reward people taking the harder road.0
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glacial_pace71 wrote: »Much grumbling has filled various threads regarding incremental progression along a salary scale in the public sector. In industry it was pretty much the norm, similarly so in the major financial institutions and in the insurance business.
However, I gather some banks have moved to abolish pay scales and instead rely upon a bonus system. Generally it involves moving people to somewhere near 90-95% of the going rate for the job, then awarding a 'bonus' of 10-20% per annum.
To manage anything similar in the public service would be difficult, e.g. the carrot of promotion doesn't apply if you're a teacher, and the current Government policy of overturning local management decisions on progressing to the next point on the scale is not a viable one in the long term. (In a prison the statutory remission is 25% to ensure good discipline among the inmates. I'd imagine a school principal probably has the same troubles).
One related problem with the current pay scales is that they factor in the going rate for the job as being somewhere above the mid-point of the scale, i.e. the teacher, nurse, clerical officer is paid at a discount relative to the post-qualification experience they gain, and in a structure in which the pyramid narrows to the extent that promotion is unlikely for the vast majority in the system they end up in a collegiate environment of sorts (some would argue Stockholm Syndrome takes hold) in which they need to work well with their management.
I'd be interested in any links to examples where large financial institutions have managed the transition from incremental salary scales to individualised pay-with-bonus structures.
I suppose one potential difficulty with the public sector is that the transition from pay scales could see 'grade inflation', e.g. at present the Revenue Commissioners are advertising for AO posts in IT and in Compliance. They're unlikely to have much luck with a starting salary of €29k, but neither a basic-plus-bonus system nor the prospect of incremental progression wouldn't necessarily solve that either. The worry would be that the Revenue would add a bell and whistle and convert the post to the next grade up.
Given that there are various grumblings re threats of legal action against the existing financial emergency powers legislation (and that some politicians are privately conceding that the Govt could lose a case) I'm sure that some additional productivity measures will be proposed, but would it be a useful exercise for the pay scale system to be the subject of an independent review as part of that process?
hows about a pay scale that those under performing don't get an increment or even better they get sacked without a pension?
No taking into account that by all measures you guys are paid more than the private sector , your guaranteed jobs for life with pension..So before people answer your question please put a price on these.
Bad public servants are about as hard to fire as a cannon under water.0 -
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fliball123 wrote: »hows about a pay scale that those under performing don't get an increment or even better they get sacked without a pension?
No taking into account that by all measures you guys are paid more than the private sector , your guaranteed jobs for life with pension..So before people answer your question please put a price on these.
Bad public servants are about as hard to fire as a cannon under water.
Those who under-perform should have their employment terminated. Traditionally it was difficult to do, as the guarantee of independence from Ministerial interference was tied up in the officer being free from Ministerial threats. However, in recent years it has become easier, but in recent years the system of entry and promotion has greatly improved, i.e. you shouldn't end up with someone being promoted beyond their capabilities.
The withholding of increments does occur, but I gather that it's still only in 5% of cases. If someone is seriously underperforming then the termination of employment, not the withholding of progression on an incremental scale, would be the more reasonable course of action. (In any event the Haddington Road arrangements had the Government of the day veto management decisions on who should be awarded an increment, and it laid down it's own timescale for the 2013-2106 period).
On the 'with pension' issue? It doesn't really apply to those who joined in the past 20 years, e.g. anyone after 1995 pays full PRSI and gets the State Pension (c.€12k per annum) plus any residual balance over that and 1/80 of salary for every year's service. For example if someone worked 40 years then they'd notionally get 40/80ths of salary less the €12k. As you can imagine, if someone was on the average industrial wage, c. 40k per annum then their 40 years service (40/80) would see a pension of 8k per annum (i.e. 20-12). If you were to buy an annuity at the current rate of c.5% you'd need a pension pot of €160k to have an €8k pension. 160k over 40 years would only equate to 4 times earnings of our 40k per annum person. So it's not worth it.
You mentioned 'you', so I suppose I should mention that I currently serve in the public service, but spend several years in various companies (in Ireland and abroad) and in a self-employed capacity. I'd be relying upon my AVCs rather than any likelihood of having a public service pension. I wouldn't be alone: I'm a chap but I've noticed that in the public service many women have several years of career breaks and job-sharing. The pension arrangements for the job-sharers are the pits: it's calculated by reference to whole time equivalent (WTE) years of service. So our 40 years job-sharer has 20 years fulltime service and so no pension entitlement even though there has been a contribution of 6.5% of salary paid over a 40 year period. (However, there's still a lump sum at 3/80ths for every year's service, so the job-sharer would still have some lump-sum payout at 65 until drawing the state pension at 68 years of age).
I gather that the second benchmarking body did place some percentage of salary valuation on the permanent/pensionable dimension.
On my original post? I'm still curious to see alternatives to the crude incremental scale in which chronological progression trumps developmental progress or achievements etc, e.g. the lad/lass acquiring their Microsoft certifications don't necessarily get promoted but the additional skill-set adds value. Granted, not everyone can be promoted to school principal or ward sister and so there would need to be some possibility of a career average salary based upon a payscale of some description. It doesn't seem to make sense for many other roles though.0 -
How would you measure teachers' performance?
There is a lot more to teachers than grades.0 -
it's not impossible like the unions and a lot of teachers try to tell usnice_guy80 wrote: »How would you measure teachers' performance?
There is a lot more to teachers than grades.0 -
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The specific issue of teacher performance has several dimensions.
Currently the Government and the Teaching Council are in the process of finalising the 'fitness to practice' provisions for the teaching profession. It can't be a simple copy-and-paste of Medical Council proceedings, as there's no teacher holding up an amputated foot and going 'oops, wrong one'. Hopefully though it will tackle the Father Jack-type figure that is harboured still in some staff-rooms.
Another general performance issue is redeployment, e.g. schools are situated in geographical areas in which population demographics can shift a lot over time. (In other countries the housing stock is a mixture of houses and apartments, with young people, families with children, empty nesters and retirees all rotating between the different types of housing stock over the decades. In Ireland we've usually a school surrounded by a belt of 3-bed semi-ds in which families remain, regardless of whether their kids have moved between primary, post-primary and third level). In Ireland therefore the redeployment of teachers from schools/localities in which the pupil-teacher ratios have fallen is something of a necessity. So far it'd appear that the redeployment panels are working.
However, that raises the related issues of school admissions policies, as this affects enrolment in many areas. Once again outside individual teacher performance but nevertheless an issue if assessing teacher performance, e.g. in some areas school retention rates/drop-out rates, English-as-a-foreign language challenges etc might be greater achievements that academic grades, or how well children with special needs are treated.
The related matter of teacher performance and extra-curricular activities is still there too. Ruairí Quinn infamously used the dreaded, loaded phrase 'feminisation' of teaching in one context. However, the days when it was expected that a teacher could/would/should be the local GAA coach have passed. Besides, there are so many extra-curricular issues for students, from arts, theatre to all the other pre-requisites that enable them to develop, e.g. teamwork, personal initiative, taking turns etc, that are found in most sports or recreational activites. It can't be up to teachers to be expected to deliver on this. However, if a teacher is making his/herself available for a wider range of roles in students' lives, and it's delivering positive outcomes (e.g. tangible examples such as Young Scientist etc) then should it be reflected in something other than the current incremental credit structure?
Of course most other people involved in young peoples' lives would harrumph and point out that they volunteer a lot, having worked longer hours and with much shorter holidays.
Apologies for the lengthy post, but it's just that there must be some ideas out there about rewarding excellence and moving away from the culture of doing just enough to progress along an incremental scale, particularly in cases such as teaching, nursing etc (Gardaí too I suppose) in which there is limited or no prospect of promotion and that the payscale remains the primary system of career reward/retention of staff.0 -
glacial_pace71 wrote: »The specific issue of teacher performance has several dimensions.
Currently the Government and the Teaching Council are in the process of finalising the 'fitness to practice' provisions for the teaching profession. It can't be a simple copy-and-paste of Medical Council proceedings, as there's no teacher holding up an amputated foot and going 'oops, wrong one'. Hopefully though it will tackle the Father Jack-type figure that is harboured still in some staff-rooms.
The Father Jack figure is a mythic caricature and is not present in Irish schools. Religious and secular clergy have done huge service in Irish schools. The most incompetence I have seen has invariable been from young or middle aged lay teachers who think they the pupils' friend and consequently have serious disciplinary issues. A teacher doesn't have to go the extra mile to be excellent. Extra-curricular activities are not necessary. Simply teaching well is enough. That means challenging pupils and commanding pupil respect.0 -
Short pay scales are not the worst thing, long ones mean that you lose sight of performance. Perhaps teachers etc should have a couple of grades. like third level, with a more substantial process to move from to the other.
But the real issue is that there is no real focus of productivity, and paying for same, as this would inhibit political stunts.
This is spot on imo.
It's not a 'public sector' problem, it's a structural problem.
I have worked for a private sector company that had the same structure, and the same undesirable outcome. The difference was in the private sector, the productive people just left for a company that had a merit based system (or stayed and became demoralised and unproductive 'time servers').
That's obviously much harder to do in the public sector, which perhaps helps to explain the inertia. Add to that, the fact that any potential reformer has to take on militant unions whose aims tend to be incongruent with merit based reform, and really, why would anyone bother?
Even more so for those within the system; Teachers went on strike when I was in the Leaving Cert in 2000, there were several diligent teachers who insisted on coming in to teach the leaving cert classes, and they were ostracized by other teachers for doing so.
I seem to recall in 2009, temp-teachers complained of being compelled to vote against their own prospects in the ASTI ballots.
I accidentally managed to overhear some of the debate on Newstalk a few weeks ago before I could change channel. It was like a replay from the conversation in 2009 (and 2000).
I figured if anyone could get some real reform into the education system, it would be Ruairi Quinn. And he did manage to get some reform implemented, but it seems some of this is now being clawed back again.
The Irish Times in his report card gave him a D grade for Accountability and transparency.http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ruairi-quinn-report-card-b-for-pluralism-but-d-for-higher-education-reform-1.1852926
The glacial pace of “opening up” the teaching profession continued under Quinn’s stewardship. Since the beginning of the year, all teachers must be registered with the Teaching Council. However, long-promised “fitness to practice” hearings are still some time off and are likely to be held in private despite Quinn’s wishes.
The Minister can be credited with some modest gains, including the introduction of a Parents and Students’ Charter that will make consultation on school policy obligatory; as well as the creation of the Education Passport, a document which travels with a child as they move from sixth class to first year to aid with the transition.
Quinn shared with his predecessors an opposition to education league tables, and introduced a new bill last week that would prevent the Freedom of Information Act extending to new Education and Training Boards (ETBs). While ostensibly designed to prevent public access to people’s exam results, it could be used by a future minister to clamp down on release of broader data.
Sadly, the best outcome the productive teachers can hope for is political stunts.0 -
Quinn was hated by most teachers
So much more could have been done to open up the patronage and teaching profession - teachers want a choice of schools to apply to and for parents to choose from.
Teachers are not afraid of change, once it is done for the right reasons.
Teacher Training is still controlled more or less by two colleges of education (which are basically big secondary schools).
The Teaching Council is merely a quango to protect the government and department of education from any criticism in relation to the teaching profession.
99% of teachers have absolutely no interaction with the TC and merely pay their annual fee so that they will continue to receive their salary every two weeks.0 -
Grades can certainly be used in comparing teacher performance. As long as the comparison is performed between teachers in the same school then it's fair enough.0
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glacial_pace71 wrote: »Apologies for the lengthy post, but it's just that there must be some ideas out there about rewarding excellence and moving away from the culture of doing just enough to progress along an incremental scale, particularly in cases such as teaching, nursing etc (Gardaí too I suppose) in which there is limited or no prospect of promotion and that the payscale remains the primary system of career reward/retention of staff.
I think that in a lot of public service jobs (Gardaí, teaching, nursing etc) the work itself can be reward enough. Catching a burglar, watching kids understand a concept for the first time, nursing a sick person back to work etc, must be very rewarding.
What would be disheartening is less than competent colleagues not being held to account, and earning the same/more money than you. So I think the real question should be how to punish/discipline the under performers, who increase the workload of the good workers and would definitely affect the morale of good workers.0 -
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Grades can certainly be used in comparing teacher performance. As long as the comparison is performed between teachers in the same school then it's fair enough.
Not necessarily true.
Let us just take modern languages. If you look at the statistics German is marked harder than French. In fact, if you dig deeper into the syllabi, some of the languages have higher standards than others so you need to teach the children to a higher standard.
That is before you expand beyond that and look at the other courses.0 -
Short pay scales are not the worst thing, long ones mean that you lose sight of performance. Perhaps teachers etc should have a couple of grades. like third level, with a more substantial process to move from to the other.
But the real issue is that there is no real focus of productivity, and paying for same, as this would inhibit political stunts.
Almost as if to confirm the accuracy of your comment,
Here is Mr.Howlin:http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/politicians-will-get-pay-hikes-along-with-public-sector-31173772.html
Mr Howlin said everyone, including politicians, should be treated equally as the economic recovery allows more spending and tax cuts.
"Ministers, politicians or anybody else - I've always said that we are not going to segregate out people," he said.
"There is the appropriate rate of pay for whatever line of work you're in and people on that pay grade should get whatever pay rises are going.
"I don't believe in segregating out particular categories of people."
Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
I guess that's the end of that anyway.0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »[/B]
Almost as if to confirm the accuracy of your comment,
Here is Mr.Howlin:
Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
I guess that's the end of that anyway.
Alas political stunts do indeed come into play. Traditionally TDs were linked to the maximum point on the Assistant Principal Officer (the "AP") but a few years ago re-assigned themselves to the maximum point on the Principal Officer payscale. (I think Harney talked of AP monkeys and more peanuts for PO-equivalents). When the cuts came they duly nodded seriously about feeling people's pain, but that was easy to do when they'd upped themselves to a different salary scale.
However, the advantage of linking the reversal of the financial emergency measures to all grades and all public office holders should then require the reversal of the cuts to pharmacists and other suppliers to public bodies: they had their contracts unilaterally binned under the financial emergency powers (FEMPI) legislation, and it'd only be fair that the gradual restoration also takes place to the price point at which the original contracts for goods and services were struck back pre-2009. (Many contracts will have run their course, so it'd be unlikely to pay out much to those remaining, but if politicians are promising the revocation of the emergency legislation then they must be consistent in how they do so).
On the previous post re how to recognise/reward achievement I suppose there are so many different contexts in which assessment can take place, e.g. consider the classic Mamet take on salesmen:
First prize? Cadillac ElDorado.
Second prize? A set of steak-knives.
Third prize? You're fired.
However, even the most ridiculous or desperate of sales teams still run up against the customer service teams (whether in a call centre abroad or here in Ireland) logging so many out-of-scope issues in terms of what was over-promised by Sales and under-delivered (or delivered within a more realistic set of specifications) by Operations. There are always some parameters by which achievement is being measured, i.e. there are several set of metrics in play in most assessment models. Except in the public sector, where the emphasis is on chronological progression on an incremental scale (subject to occasional Government interference in whether there are freezes in progression to match various coalition needs and/or the electoral cycle). There must be a better way.0 -
glacial_pace71 wrote: »Alas political stunts do indeed come into play. Traditionally TDs were linked to the maximum point on the Assistant Principal Officer (the "AP") but a few years ago re-assigned themselves to the maximum point on the Principal Officer payscale. (I think Harney talked of AP monkeys and more peanuts for PO-equivalents). When the cuts came they duly nodded seriously about feeling people's pain, but that was easy to do when they'd upped themselves to a different salary scale.
However, the advantage of linking the reversal of the financial emergency measures to all grades and all public office holders should then require the reversal of the cuts to pharmacists and other suppliers to public bodies: they had their contracts unilaterally binned under the financial emergency powers (FEMPI) legislation, and it'd only be fair that the gradual restoration also takes place to the price point at which the original contracts for goods and services were struck back pre-2009. (Many contracts will have run their course, so it'd be unlikely to pay out much to those remaining, but if politicians are promising the revocation of the emergency legislation then they must be consistent in how they do so).
On the previous post re how to recognise/reward achievement I suppose there are so many different contexts in which assessment can take place, e.g. consider the classic Mamet take on salesmen:
First prize? Cadillac ElDorado.
Second prize? A set of steak-knives.
Third prize? You're fired.
However, even the most ridiculous or desperate of sales teams still run up against the customer service teams (whether in a call centre abroad or here in Ireland) logging so many out-of-scope issues in terms of what was over-promised by Sales and under-delivered (or delivered within a more realistic set of specifications) by Operations. There are always some parameters by which achievement is being measured, i.e. there are several set of metrics in play in most assessment models. Except in the public sector, where the emphasis is on chronological progression on an incremental scale (subject to occasional Government interference in whether there are freezes in progression to match various coalition needs and/or the electoral cycle). There must be a better way.
To be fair, it wasn't done by way of a political stunt
http://www.reviewbody.gov.ie/Documents/Report_No_38.pdf
"Our terms of reference require us to recommend (1) an
appropriate civil service grade to which the pay of Da´il Deputies would
be linked for the future and (2) the proportionate relationship that the
remuneration of Senators should have to that of Deputies. Furthermore
in the cases of members of the Oireachtas and office holders our terms
of reference are confined to salaries (i.e. excluding allowances and
superannuation arrangement"
"The salary of a TD is not linked to that of any civil service grade.
The salary level is similar to the ordinary maximum (excluding long
service increments) of the scale for Assistant Principal (higher) and the
salary of a Senator is approximately 63% of that of a TD."
It wasn't actually linked to AP.
"Based on our consideration as informed by the outcome of the
comparison exercise, we recommend that
• the salary of a Da´il Deputy should be set at the ordinary maximum
of the grade of Principal Officer (standard) in the civil service (i.e.
at £46,506 in current terms); and,
• the salary of a Senator should be fixed as 70% of that of a TD
and should be revised for the future on that basis. This gives a
revised salary of £32,554."
The independent report recommended Principal Officer.
"As our recommendations provide a basis for the future automatic
review of the remuneration of Da´il Deputies and Senators we consider
that their remuneration should no longer form part of our remit for
general reviews."
This is the bit that should be revisited. The Report was written in September 2000. All grades in the civil service have given extensive productivity concessions over the last decade. It may not be appropriate any more to link to PO. Then again, in benchmarking, you should always be careful what you wish for.0 -
I wonder if the current government have asked themselves is it worth buying off the Public sector ala social partnership like FF did before. People are more in tune to what they get up to and if PS pay goes up above increments I think a lot of people will be upset and will take their support and vote away.
There should be no pay rises until after we are out of our deficit and there are at least 5/6 areas that need to be addressed before any pay rises above increments are entered into.
Tax cuts - PS get this aswell yaaaaeee
Money cut from services (not wage monies) put back in . PS benefit from more money being pumped into their work environment
The Hiring of new public servants - PS benefit from more people working taking some of their load
Better/More infrastructure - Everyone benefits
A revamp of self employed -
Childcare costs - Increase the number of people going to work - more taxes.
The PS on here can p1ss and moan about cuts and how this is not asking for a payr ise but looking for their money back..I counter this by saying..These cuts were to reverse the debacle that was benchmarking and social partnership and the pension levy was a contribution to a defined benefit and an attempt to try and cover the cost of public sector pensions. People in the private sector are being asked to cover some of the cost of these pensions and many have no money to cover their own.
Once we get onto a path of no longer borrowing. I would remove the pension levy but with it change the nature of public sector pensions to that of defined contribution and away from the hang mans noose that is defined benefit.
After that if a proper system of appraisal was entered into as in not 99.9% of employees getting a pay rise no mater how sh1t they are at there job I don't think many people would have a problem with hard working, honest public servants getting a pay rise on merit0 -
Or you could avoid extensive industrial action in public services, which is being lined up in the event of non-engagement on pay.
And we are already out of the deficit, there will be a current surplus this year. Debt is another matter for long term strategy0 -
What time is this Spring update on, and is it live on tv/radio?0
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fliball123 wrote: »I wonder if the current government have asked themselves is it worth buying off the Public sector ala social partnership like FF did before. People are more in tune to what they get up to and if PS pay goes up above increments I think a lot of people will be upset and will take their support and vote away.
There should be no pay rises until after we are out of our deficit and there are at least 5/6 areas that need to be addressed before any pay rises above increments are entered into.
Tax cuts - PS get this aswell yaaaaeee
Money cut from services (not wage monies) put back in . PS benefit from more money being pumped into their work environment
The Hiring of new public servants - PS benefit from more people working taking some of their load
Better/More infrastructure - Everyone benefits
A revamp of self employed -
Childcare costs - Increase the number of people going to work - more taxes.
The PS on here can p1ss and moan about cuts and how this is not asking for a payr ise but looking for their money back..I counter this by saying..These cuts were to reverse the debacle that was benchmarking and social partnership and the pension levy was a contribution to a defined benefit and an attempt to try and cover the cost of public sector pensions. People in the private sector are being asked to cover some of the cost of these pensions and many have no money to cover their own.
Once we get onto a path of no longer borrowing. I would remove the pension levy but with it change the nature of public sector pensions to that of defined contribution and away from the hang mans noose that is defined benefit.
After that if a proper system of appraisal was entered into as in not 99.9% of employees getting a pay rise no mater how sh1t they are at there job I don't think many people would have a problem with hard working, honest public servants getting a pay rise on merit
Sure why not throw in a few more, e.g. -
- private sector pay continues to increase - private sector perception of PS (its all about the private sector you know) pay premium reduces so PS in general feel less guilty - a PS win win!!
- self-employed (especially farmers) get dole - regular bouts of unemployment for self-employed making them more relaxed and therefore more sanguine toward PS gold plated terms and conditions .. PS win win!
- a further benefit to the above is that self-employed might be more inclined to pay taxes/PRSI on their full income because they know they will be claiming it all back anyway (some chance!!)
- PS get a payrise only when private sector think its appropriate - PS so humbled by their fellow workers support that they demand that half of it goes towards a once-off tax break for the private sector .. private sector not amused as now can't complain about greedy PS .. PS can't win.0 -
At the moment survey after survey shows that public sector pay here on average is very high both compared to private sector pay and public sector pay in other countries. Indeed our public servants are some of the highest paid in Europe, and are paid 15k more than private sector people are here.
If the government is doing give away to buy next election, then the least they could do is change USC, tax rates so that all workers could benefit, rather than just rewarding public sector workers whilst getting private sector workers to stump up for it.0 -
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At the moment survey after survey shows that public sector pay here on average is very high both compared to private sector pay and public sector pay in other countries. Indeed our public servants are some of the highest paid in Europe, and are paid 15k more than private sector people are here.
If the government is doing give away to buy next election, then the least they could do is change USC, tax rates so that all workers could benefit, rather than just rewarding public sector workers whilst getting private sector workers to stump up for it.
Surveys also show that the Irish private sector pay is higher than is other countries ... I wonder should be be more concerned about that matter ..
Good thing is planned reductios in USC and taxes in general will benefit all workers - as previously rather eloquently described as yaaaaeee0 -
At the moment survey after survey shows that public sector pay here on average is very high both compared to private sector pay and public sector pay in other countries. Indeed our public servants are some of the highest paid in Europe, and are paid 15k more than private sector people are here.
If the government is doing give away to buy next election, then the least they could do is change USC, tax rates so that all workers could benefit, rather than just rewarding public sector workers whilst getting private sector workers to stump up for it.
Not true. Firstly, there have been no accurate studies done for a long time.
Secondly, those that were done showed conflicting results. At the top of the public service, people are paid badly compared to the private sector. At the bottom of the public service, people are paid badly compared to other Europeans.
The bottom line, as I have pointed out umpteen times, is that the FEMPI Acts are open to legal challenge now as they were predicated on a financial emergency that no longer exists.0 -
Sure why not throw in a few more, e.g. -
- private sector pay continues to increase - private sector perception of PS (its all about the private sector you know) pay premium reduces so PS in general feel less guilty - a PS win win!!
- self-employed (especially farmers) get dole - regular bouts of unemployment for self-employed making them more relaxed and therefore more sanguine toward PS gold plated terms and conditions .. PS win win!
- a further benefit to the above is that self-employed might be more inclined to pay taxes/PRSI on their full income because they know they will be claiming it all back anyway (some chance!!)
- PS get a payrise only when private sector think its appropriate - PS so humbled by their fellow workers support that they demand that half of it goes towards a once-off tax break for the private sector .. private sector not amused as now can't complain about greedy PS .. PS can't win.
its not only about the private sector, companies turning a profit are giving payrises and there has been a lot more stagnation, job losses and pay freezes in the private sector than there were in the public sector.
The pay premium has to reduce, either the premium or take the pensions problem away from the public purse and put the onus on the ps individual to cover their pension that would even a lot ground between the 2 sectors.
I was under the impression self employed could not get the dole? I could be wrong on this.
PS can get a payrise when their employer is no longer borrowing and by the way they always got payrises all the way through the bust..The PS should change their logo to "incrementing our way through the bust"0 -
Not true. Firstly, there have been no accurate studies done for a long time.
Secondly, those that were done showed conflicting results. At the top of the public service, people are paid badly compared to the private sector. At the bottom of the public service, people are paid badly compared to other Europeans.
The bottom line, as I have pointed out umpteen times, is that the FEMPI Acts are open to legal challenge now as they were predicated on a financial emergency that no longer exists.
No longer exists..sorry how much are we going to borrow this year and how much money do we owe?? really you and the FEMPI act will fail under this in anyones eyes...
How will it go
PS - the country is back on its feet
Gov - No we are still borrowing 6 billion this year
PS - but your giving tax cuts
Gov - Because we are taking the piss with taxation rates and by the by you also gain from this
PS - Fempi act blah blah
Gov - We still owe over 200billion - Fempi act are you having a laugh0 -
Then your model simply has to also look at the delta between German and French in school A and German and French in school B. Employee appraisal systems are never perfect but they are better than nothing.Not necessarily true.
Let us just take modern languages. If you look at the statistics German is marked harder than French. In fact, if you dig deeper into the syllabi, some of the languages have higher standards than others so you need to teach the children to a higher standard.
That is before you expand beyond that and look at the other courses.0 -
Not true. Firstly, there have been no accurate studies done for a long time.
New CSO study published this week:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf0 -
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fliball123 wrote: »
I was under the impression self employed could not get the dole? I could be wrong on this.
The self-employed can apply for JSA "dole", the same as anybody else.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »its not only about the private sector, companies turning a profit are giving payrises and there has been a lot more stagnation, job losses and pay freezes in the private sector than there were in the public sector.
The pay premium has to reduce, either the premium or take the pensions problem away from the public purse and put the onus on the ps individual to cover their pension that would even a lot ground between the 2 sectors.
I was under the impression self employed could not get the dole? I could be wrong on this.
PS can get a payrise when their employer is no longer borrowing and by the way they always got payrises all the way through the bust..The PS should change their logo to "incrementing our way through the bust"
Do you have any view of the this text from the OP
"Much grumbling has filled various threads regarding incremental progression along a salary scale in the public sector. In industry it was pretty much the norm, similarly so in the major financial institutions and in the insurance business.
However, I gather some banks have moved to abolish pay scales and instead rely upon a bonus system. Generally it involves moving people to somewhere near 90-95% of the going rate for the job, then awarding a 'bonus' of 10-20% per annum."
Obviously it must be wrong ... after all no such thing as incremental scales in the private sector .. everyone know that.
As for the PS can get pay rises when their employer is no longer borrowing .. what a joke .. the PS employer borrowed right throughout the greatest boom this country ever saw. By the way how many private sector companies have no debt? Are all companies awarding pay increases funded entirely from annual income and/or retained reserves? No problem though I pay your wages ........0 -
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The PS pay premium has been reduced to 5.8% - 7.4%, by 2010.
See table 1.2 on page 9:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf
NB: this excludes the effects of the pension levy PRD.
NB: this is before the third round of paycuts, Haddington Road agreement.0 -
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When account is taken of the PRD pension levy, the PS pay premium is -1.2% to 1% by 2010
NB: comm semi-states incl in private sector here.
See table 2.2 on page 18:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf0 -
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Do you have any view of the this text from the OP
"Much grumbling has filled various threads regarding incremental progression along a salary scale in the public sector. In industry it was pretty much the norm, similarly so in the major financial institutions and in the insurance business.
However, I gather some banks have moved to abolish pay scales and instead rely upon a bonus system. Generally it involves moving people to somewhere near 90-95% of the going rate for the job, then awarding a 'bonus' of 10-20% per annum."
Obviously it must be wrong ... after all no such thing as incremental scales in the private sector .. everyone know that.
As for the PS can get pay rises when their employer is no longer borrowing .. what a joke .. the PS employer borrowed right throughout the greatest boom this country ever saw. By the way how many private sector companies have no debt? Are all companies awarding pay increases funded entirely from annual income and/or retained reserves? No problem though I pay your wages ........
Well I agree some other sort of mechanism for judging how to pay increments and pay rises should be entered and people from outside the country (as in someone who does not directly profit from deciding an across the board 3% pay rise) should be consulted as to who should get a pay rise.
In most jobs people are given deadlines, goals and objectives and their payrise/bonus or lack of it is dependent on this. The current position of the unions everyone gets a pay rise no matter how good, bad or indifferent is a joke and while that system exists no pay rises should be allowed.
The problem with increments and I agree it is simular to apprenticeships..but the thing is if a company had an apprentice carpenter, plumber, butcher..whatever and they were due a payrise and the company was in trouble, I can guarantee all payrises would of been the first thing cut, this did not happen within the public sector.
As for the banks model..look at how that worked for them they are only back on their uppers after the tax payer bailed their sorry a$$es out. I wouldn't follow their model and their bonuses should be changed or when they get paid should be changed to when the loan is paid off instead of when the loan is created.
The government borrowed during the boom so that Bertie could buy off the unions with social partnership and benchmarking, he bought off those on the dole with social welfare increases. Just look at how much the bill for both public sector pay and pensions and welfare went up during the boom..It more than doubled and now we are in the crapper trying to pay for these mistakes. The banks are 64 billion of our debt and with the sales of Permanent , BOI and AIB we will get upwards of 25billion back so that will leave about 40bililion the other 160 odd billion is because Bertie decided to buy off votes from the ps and the those who depend on social welfare.
Now people on the PS want a payrise and yet we still are borrowing 5/6 billion this year and have a 200billion debt over hang...thanks but eh no thanks no pay rises there are a number of other areas that were decimated during the crash the public sector is way down the list of people who deserve anything back
How do you pay my wages?0 -
fliball123 wrote: »No longer exists..sorry how much are we going to borrow this year and how much money do we owe?? really you and the FEMPI act will fail under this in anyones eyes...
How will it go
PS - the country is back on its feet
Gov - No we are still borrowing 6 billion this year
PS - but your giving tax cuts
Gov - Because we are taking the piss with taxation rates and by the by you also gain from this
PS - Fempi act blah blah
Gov - We still owe over 200billion - Fempi act are you having a laugh
In a court case, the court will look at what was happening when McCreevy was running deficits of 3% - lots of pay increases for public servants. Then the court will conclude that a deficit of 3% is not a financial emergency that prevents pay rises to public servants and FEMPI will be struck down. Simples.0 -
New CSO study published this week:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf
Very interesting.
At the 90th percentile (i.e. highest paid in the public service) for males, when you include the pension levy and adjust for size of organisation, public servants were paid 9.2% less than private sector workers in 2010. Since then, those public servants have seen two more cuts.0 -
When account is taken of the PRD pension levy, the PS pay premium is -1.2% to 1% by 2010
NB: comm semi-states incl in private sector here.
See table 2.2 on page 18:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf
Not only does this data exclude the more recent pay cuts in the public sector but it also excludes the recent 2% a year well-documented payrises in the private sector.
Clearly there has been a significant shift in favour of the private sector over the last few years.0 -
nothing interesting about that as you have a ceiling in the PSVery interesting.
At the 90th percentile (i.e. highest paid in the public service) for males, when you include the pension levy and adjust for size of organisation, public servants were paid 9.2% less than private sector workers in 2010. Since then, those public servants have seen two more cuts.0 -
Average weekly pay rates in the public sector are nearly 50 per cent higher than those in the private sector, according to new data from the Central Statistics Office (CSO).
See the article in the Irish Times on the 25th of August, google it.
The CSO figures also indicate the pay gap between the sectors is widening.
The figures show average weekly earnings in the public sector in the second quarter of last year were €919, almost €300 higher than €622 recorded for the private sector.
They also indicate the average weekly wage in the public sector rose by €15.88 or 1.8 per cent between the first and second quarters of last year.
At the same time, weekly earnings in the private sector fell by €8.53 or 1.4 per cent.
“Even when you adjust for qualifications, experience and length of service, the public sector workers still enjoy a significant pay premium over their private sector counterparts,” Ibec economist Fergal O’Brien is quoted as saying.0 -
As has been pointed out here numerous times, you cannot make useful comparison between hundreds of thousands of diverse people at the same time, only between specific professions or jobs. There may be a point to be made, but people prefer to make pointless rants based on useless aggregates.0
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